Conception and Birth of Believers

[FreeGrace]

Yes a discerning statement which judges us as either for him or against him.

I provided Scripture that refutes your claim. Just gonna ignore it, huh.

Again, I didn't side step anything. The wind blows where it blows according to God's purpose.

What in the world does this mean? And what relevance does it have to the discussion?

 

[FreeGrace]

Thank you for drawing the distinction Gregg. My statement above refers to every living creature. I am saying that Life, the Spirit that animates all life on the planet comes from God.

The problem is your confusion between "spirit" and "Spirit". When capitalized, the word refers to the Holy Spirit. When non capitalized, it refers to the immaterial part of man.

It seems you have confused or conflated the two.

 

[gr8grace3]

What is LoF?

The Lake of Fire.

My safe answer is I hope all men will be saved. I acknowledge that God can do whatever He wants to and it is just. So that if He wanted to show His wrath, He could have prepared vessels to accommodate His purpose. For He has mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and he Hardens whom He hardens. Romans 9:18. John 3:8.

The biblical answer is, no, not all men will be saved. Luke 16:24

God cannot do what ever he wants. He can't lie,sin,change his essence/characteristics or do anything that violates or compromises one of His divine attributes. He is righteous/just and He has told us that we need to believe in order to be saved. His righteousness will not allow His sovereignty to bring an unbeliever to heaven. His righteousness will not allow His Sovereignty to cause belief for some and not for others.
Deuteronomy 32:4 (NASB95)
4 “The Rock! His work is perfect,

For all His ways are just;

A God of faithfulness and without injustice,

Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 9:8;~~He judges the people in equity, in righteousness,fairness,on a level playing field, with straightness.

If he caused you to believe, and didn't cause others(everybody) to believe, He would be unjust/unrighteous and it would not be on a level playing field or fair.

 

[Gregg]

Thank you for drawing the distinction Gregg. My statement above refers to every living creature. I am saying that Life, the Spirit that animates all life on the planet comes from God.

Thank you for responding. Yes, every living creature is created by God, and every creature is animated when it is created. God created the life of living creatures.

But I am still wondering what you are saying. Please be specific with nothing more than yes and no answers:

1. God created the life that is in every creature? Yes or No . . .
2. The life of God that is of His essence and Person is in every creature? Yes or No . . .​

 

[childeye]

Lake of Fire.

Thanks. Yes, that makes sense to me.

To be clear, Jesus laid down His life for THE sheep. Not "His" sheep, nor "His Father's" sheep. He died for THE sheep.

Who hired the hirelings? Who sent the True shepherd? Who is the wolf that scatters the sheep?

Let's rather be Biblical. While God desires all men to be saved, per 1 Tim 2:4, we know that wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and narrow is the gate that leads to life. So, obviously, many more people will end up in the LoF than in heaven.

The narrow gate that leads to life is narrow because all follow the same Truth., love God with all your heart mind and soul and love others as you would want to be loved. The wide road seems to me to be a road where every man's individual beliefs are to be respected as equal. Hence hypocrisy is the result since no man can honestly respect another's man's beliefs when eventually they conflict with their own. There is only one truth for all men that leads to Life even as there is only one God.

I do not take this to mean that most men will not be saved. Why? Because it impedes upon my hope upon which I intercede for others. 1 Timothy 2:1. And this is in keeping with love others as I would want to be loved. As I said, the safe answer is I hope that all men will be saved. 1 Timothy 2:6.

 

[childeye]

To be clear, the Bible says that man was corrupted from Adam's sin. Rom 5:12-20.

Yes his sin did corrupt all men.

You have not shown any evidence of that notion. Satan did deceive the woman. But not by a false image of god.


OK, that's what you mean by false image. The problem with your view is that it was the disobedience that caused Adam and the woman to become corrupted and fallen. Not a false image.

While it's true that Satan painted God out to be a liar, that wasn't sin. That lead to sin.

Exactly. Hence there would be no sin without the false image of god presented by Satan that led to sin.

 

[childeye]

Thank you for responding. Yes, every living creature is created by God, and every creature is animated when it is created. God created the life of living creatures.

But I am still wondering what you are saying. Please be specific with nothing more than yes and no answers:

1. God created the life that is in every creature? Yes or No . . .
2. The life of God that is of His essence and Person is in every creature? Yes or No . . .​

In response to number 1, I will say yes. For 2, I will say no.

 

[childeye]

I provided Scripture that refutes your claim. Just gonna ignore it, huh.

I revisited post #110 where you questioned me about this seeming contradiction. I didn't see any scripture posted.

What in the world does this mean? And what relevance does it have to the discussion?

This is taken from John 3:8. To me it means no one controls the Holy Spirit we only feel it and see the effects of it.

 

[childeye]

God cannot do what ever he wants. He can't lie,sin,change his essence/characteristics or do anything that violates or compromises one of His divine attributes.

This is an issue of semantics, For I said He can do anything He wants/desires to do, not He can do whatever He doesn't want/desire to do. You are right, God would not desire to do anything that changes His essence since His essence is perfect and Holy, nor can He change Who he is.

Psalm 9:8;~~He judges the people in equity, in righteousness, fairness, on a level playing field, with straightness.

True again.

If he caused you to believe, and didn't cause others(everybody) to believe, He would be unjust/unrighteous and it would not be on a level playing field or fair.

God made a promise. Please note that it would be fair and equal for all men to die since all men have sinned and are worthy of death. We are saved by mercy. Is mercy unfair? For he has mercy where He decides to have mercy because God made a promise that He will keep. Romans 9:15-16. Galatians 3:17.

 

[childeye]

The problem is your confusion between "spirit" and "Spirit". When capitalized, the word refers to the Holy Spirit. When non capitalized, it refers to the immaterial part of man.

It seems you have confused or conflated the two.

I have not conflated the two, it's an issue of semantics. The Spirit that is in man from Creation before sin, is the Spirit/Word of God. The spirit in man after sin, is the Spirit being corrupted by belief in a false image of god. The True Image of God, the Word made flesh, regenerates the spirit, through belief in that True Image, which renews/regenerates the Spirit in man. This is all an issue of semantics that is difficult to overcome.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
To be clear, Jesus laid down His life for THE sheep. Not "His" sheep, nor "His Father's" sheep. He died for THE sheep.

Who hired the hirelings? Who sent the True shepherd? Who is the wolf that scatters the sheep?

Your questions are irrelevant to what I said. My point is that Jesus died for THE sheep.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The problem is your confusion between "spirit" and "Spirit". When capitalized, the word refers to the Holy Spirit. When non capitalized, it refers to the immaterial part of man.

It seems you have confused or conflated the two."

I have not conflated the two, it's an issue of semantics.

It CANNOT be an issue of "semantics" when the issue is whether or not the word is capitalized or not.

 

[gr8grace3]

God made a promise. Please note that it would be fair and equal for all men to die since all men have sinned and are worthy of death. We are saved by mercy. Is mercy unfair? For he has mercy where He decides to have mercy because God made a promise that He will keep. Romans 9:15-16. Galatians 3:17.

This is Good. God condemned all men.His Justice demands it. It was Just and fair that all men die.
New American Standard Bible
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-

Now God has put ALL men in disobedience........This is a blessing believe it or not. Now He is able to offer salvation to ALL men. He made ALL men savable by doing this and without violating His Justice.

Since God has shut up all in disobedience He would be unjust or unrighteous even if 1 man didn't have the opportunity to believe and receive His Mercy.

New American Standard Bible
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

 

[Gregg]

In response to number 1, I will say yes. For 2, I will say no.

I agree, and thank you for clarifying; as previous to this it sounded like you would have answered "yes" to the 2nd question.

 

[childeye]

This is Good. God condemned all men.His Justice demands it. It was Just and fair that all men die.
New American Standard Bible
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-

Now God has put ALL men in disobedience........This is a blessing believe it or not. Now He is able to offer salvation to ALL men. He made ALL men savable by doing this and without violating His Justice.

Since God has shut up all in disobedience He would be unjust or unrighteous even if 1 man didn't have the opportunity to believe and receive His Mercy.

New American Standard Bible
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Good post gr8grace3.Despite the occasion for semantics, it seems you and I are fellowshipping and edifying one another in the Truth that comes from God and not from men.
I like you calling the concluding in disobedience a blessing. You see a big picture to say that. Now just one little thing that remains unresolved that is still hidden in the semantics of words. Does God not allow some to believe according to His discretion of mercy? Is Paul right in suggesting that, God as the Potter, can prepare vessels for wrath? Romans 9:21.

 

[childeye]

I agree, and thank you for clarifying; as previous to this it sounded like you would have answered "yes" to the 2nd question.

I understand what you mean. The way you framed the second question required an answer of no. The problem I anticipated by answering yes to that question, was the inevitable question of, how does the Person of God fit into a single cell organism?

 

[FreeGrace]

Is Paul right in suggesting that God as the Potter can prepare vessels for wrath? Romans 9:21.

Proper understanding of Rom 9:22 (not 21) is found in the actual Greek word for "prepare".
katartizō
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one’s self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

It should be clear that meanings 1, 1a1, or 1c does not fit the verse.

So, what is left? Those going to destruction have been mended, repaired, or adjusted for destruction.

IOW, they have been retro-fitted for destruction. No one has been created for destruction.

 

[childeye]

I said this:
"The problem is your confusion between "spirit" and "Spirit". When capitalized, the word refers to the Holy Spirit. When non capitalized, it refers to the immaterial part of man.

It seems you have confused or conflated the two."

It CANNOT be an issue of "semantics" when the issue is whether or not the word is capitalized or not.

It's an issue of semantics FreeGrace. In fact, the fact that you say that it is not an issue of semantics, is an issue of semantics.

 

[childeye]

Proper understanding of Rom 9:22 (not 21) is found in the actual Greek word for "prepare".
katartizō
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one’s self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

It should be clear that meanings 1, 1a1, or 1c does not fit the verse.

So, what is left? Those going to destruction have been mended, repaired, or adjusted for destruction.

IOW, they have been retro-fitted for destruction. No one has been created for destruction.

I see vessels of wrath as those absent of anything redeemable, void of goodness or light, or in other words, filled with everything ungodly and unrighteous. I agree with you that vanity is not a creation of God. It doesn't mean He did not foresee that it would arise, and had prepared vessels for it.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's an issue of semantics FreeGrace. In fact, the fact that you say that it is not an issue of semantics, is an issue of semantics.

lol. The word has a totally different meaning depending on whether it is capitalized or not.