Condemned Already !

[savedbygrace57]

joz

that it is impossible for any of the elect -not- to believe the Gospel
when they hear it

No, its possible. But they will eventually believe it. But even when they don't believe it, they are not condemned by God !

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz

Hardly friend. Your false doctrine cannot agree with the Scriptures

Yes I agree with scripture, but not your understanding of it.

 

[Jozinky]

joz


Yes I agree with scripture, but not your understanding of it.

.
Jozinky replies; Well then you must agree that the elect are all born lost, unregenerate and unrighteous. Right? Because that's clearly what Scripture says friend and it has nothing to do with "my understanding". It's just plain statements in easy-to-understand language... which to this point you have rejected and given -your- "understanding" which is clearly against the plain language of Scripture because you think the elect are born saved... which is absurd unbiblical nonsense..

You can squirm all you want to but it's obvious you have no way to support your false doctrine other than to twist Scripture and insert things into it that are not there. For example you claim;
1 pet 3 18 means they were unjust in their behaviour,

Nowhere does it say "unjust in their behaviour,". You have to add that in in order to float your heresy. Moreover Scripture tells us that those who are unjust in their behavior shows that they are unjust in their personal character. Notice..

1John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Which means that everyone that does not do righteousness is not born of Him. Right? Which mens they are by nature unjust... or unrighteous, same Greek word. Do the elect do righteousness before they hear and believe the Gospel? If you say Yes you're a heretic... which at this point you are; but if you say No -then- and only then do you agree with the Scriptures and your false doctrine folds. Because Jesus said... a good tree =cannot= bring forth corrupt fruit. So if the elect are born Righteous then they =cannot= have unrighteous behavior. But you agree that they =do= have unrighteous behavior so you either must change your doctrine of reject the teaching of Messiah and the rest of then Scriptures.

Your claim that you believe the Scriptures is empty hot air.

Repent.


James

 

[Jozinky]

joz
that it is impossible for any of the elect -not- to believe the Gospel
when they hear it


No, its possible. But they will eventually believe it. But even when they don't believe it, they are not condemned by God !

Jozinky replies; Well then you now contradict yourself because you claim that rejection of the Gospel shows a person to be in a =lost= state but you claim the elect are born in a -saved- state.

Make up your mind... or rather jettison your heresy and repent.

James

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz

Well then you must agree that the elect are all born lost,

Yes they are born in a lost condition by nature, but not born condemned for being born in that condition. Others are though !

Also they are born forgiven of all their sins, past present and future !

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz

Well then you now contradict yourself because you claim that rejection of the
Gospel shows a person to be in a =lost=

Yes thats True, but the elect are not condemned while in a Lost state !

 

[reba]

Personal attacks are running wild across these forums . This is your warning personal attacks will be deleted with out regard to the effect such deletions will have on they message of your post.....

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.
STAFF

 

[Jozinky]

joz



Yes they are born in a lost condition by nature, but not born condemned for being born in that condition. Others are though !

Also they are born forgiven of all their sins, past present and future !

J replies; Which means you now contradict yourself. If a person rejects the Gospel you said it shows that he is in a lost state and now you -correctly- say he is in a lost condition by nature. That means;

1; He =cannot= be one of the elect because according to you the elect are born in a =saved= state. And...
2; He =cannot= believe the Gospel ever because he is not one of the elect... according to you. And...
3; You are now able to tell who are among the reprobate... which is impossible for anyone to tell.

Your false doctrine just gets deeper friend.

Jozinky

 

[Jozinky]

joz



Yes thats True, but the elect are not condemned while in a Lost state !

..
J replies; Which clearly contradicts the Lord Jesus who said....
John 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

The "he who" is the same as whosoever and means =anybody= including the elect. So you claim you believe the Scriptures.. do you believe this Scripture, that it necessarily includes the elect while they do not believe the Gospel? If you say No well then you're a heretic... which at this point you are. But if you say Yes well then your false doctrine sinks to the bottom & you must..

Repent.

James

 

[Jozinky]

joz




Also they are born forgiven of all their sins, past present and future !

Jozinky replies; Then that means they do not have to 'repent" because they are already forgiven. But Scripture clearly says that without repentance there is no forgiveness. So you continue to contradict Scripture.

James

 

[Jozinky]

joz



Yes thats True, but the elect are not condemned while in a Lost state !

.
J replies; But you claim the elect are =born saved=!

Make up your mind.

J......

 

[WIP]

We are to offer correction with love and understanding. Please tone down the comments. This is the second warning.

 

[Jozinky]

To all;

The Scriptures teach clearly that all men including the elect are conceived and born in sin and as such are natural enemies of God.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

In such a condition all men including the elect are by nature children of wrath and under condemnation

John 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ~~all~~ ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Eph 2:1 And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience;
3 among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Galatians 3;10 For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."

Those Scriptures include the elect before God saves them. To be "dead in tresspasses and sins" folks is to be lost; unsaved; unregenerate; unrighteous; and unjustified and as Paul says, under a curse. Such people cannot possibly be saved, regenerate, righteous or justified. They only become so when God is pleased to save them by the Gospel which they come to believe. Anybody who denies that is denying the word of God and folks who deny the word of God cannot be true Christians.

Regards;
James

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz

But you claim the elect are =born saved=!

They are, they are born saved from the penalty of sin,[Not condemned] but they are not born saved and converted from the power of sin ! That comes later when they are born again.

 

[Jozinky]

joz



They are, they are born saved from the penalty of sin,[Not condemned] but they are not born saved and converted from the power of sin ! That comes later when they are born again.

Jozinky replies; I see you're starting to back-peddle and fudge! Where does Scripture say the elect are "born from the penalty of sin"? Such hair-splitting is telling.
Certainly -not- Romans 8 because that only applies to those who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Unsaved folks -all- walk after the flesh including the elect and are therefore subject to all the warnings given to all men who will not repent including condemnation. Notice;

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.

You will notice that it says "shall be saved" and not "shall realize that he is already saved" which is what you're trying to say. That means according to this passage the elect are both lost and under damnation/condemnation, which is the penalty for sin, until they believe the Gospel.

There's no doubt that the elect -will- believe and be saved but until that happens they are no different from the reprobate and as such are subject to sin's penalty unless they repent.

Cheers;
James

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz

replies; Which clearly contradicts the Lord Jesus who said....
John 3:18 He
who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned
already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of
God.

Jesus is not talking about the Elect while they are unbelievers being already condemned, for that is impossible, Because the Elect, those Christ died for, while they are unbelievers/enemies, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now one who is reconciled to God is received into His Favour. The word reconciled is the greek word
katallassō:
to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

So, as enemies and unbelievers, the Elect are not condemned, but in fact accepted into God's Favour. There is no sin charged to them. So Jn 3:18, those unbelievers are not the Elect or people Christ died for. I have explained these things before in another thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=27040&highlight=

 

[Jozinky]

joz



They are, they are born saved from the penalty of sin,[Not condemned] but they are not born saved and converted from the power of sin ! That comes later when they are born again.

J replies; I forgot to restate what my Savior said;

John 3;18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So your statement above contradicts the Lord Jesus.

James

 

[Jozinky]

joz



Jesus is not talking about the Elect while they are unbelievers being already condemned, for that is impossible, Because the Elect, those Christ died for, while they are unbelievers/enemies, they have been reconciled to God by the Death of His Son. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Jozinky replies; Except such reconciliation does not occur until the elect believe the Gospel. Notice;

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

According to your view this verse makes no sense because you claim the elect are already reconciled before they believe. Paul here is saying that reconciliation occurs when a person hears and believes the Gospel. There's no doubt that reconciliation as well as complete salvation with all of its blessings and benefits was ~~Accomplished~~ by Christ on the cross... but none of that is ~~Applied~~ to the elect until they hear and believe the Gospel.

Your problem is you are confusing and conglomerating the 2 separate doctrines of Redemption ~Accomplished and Redemption ~Applied. That's the base of your doctrine.

Jozinky

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz

Except such reconciliation does not occur until the elect believe the
Gospel.

edit it occurs while they are enemies ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Jozinky]

joz



Thats false, it occurs while they are enemies ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Jozinky replies; Well of ~course~ they are enemies before they are saved and of -course- reconciliation was ~~Accomplished~~ on the cross... and that's what this verse is referring to; Reconciliation Accomplish... not Reconciliation Applied. It's not Applied until one believes the Gospel. Otherwise Paul's statement makes no sense.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Like I said... Your problem is you are confusing and conglomerating the 2 separate doctrines of Redemption ~Accomplished and Redemption ~Applied. That's the base of your false doctrine.

Regards;
James