Confronting the doctrine of sinless perfection with 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10

[Hopeful 2]

A heresy. Blasphemy.

Then Jesus failed to free us from the devil's grasp.
He failed to free us from the "flesh" so we could henceforth walk in the Spirit.
His gift of repentance from sin was an empty gesture.
Thanks be to God, you are wrong on all counts !

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then Jesus failed to free us from the devil's grasp.
He failed to free us from the "flesh" so we could henceforth walk in the Spirit.
His gift of repentance from sin was an empty gesture.
Thanks be to God, you are wrong on all counts !

No he didn't fail, it is you who're equating yourself with Jesus, the only man who's truly sinless and perfect.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree with Jesus that wealth and goods cannot replace the true comfort of being in Christ.

Then how is it comparing apple with orange?

Too bad you see obeisance to God as a bad thing.

No I don't, I only see your pride as a bad thing.

Name a single sin that manifests perfection.

Pride, sin of all sins.

The world is the realm of the prince of the power of the air now.
But those in Christ are not of this world.
Just because the world is jumping off a cliff doesn't mean we also have to.

Nonetheless we're still in this world, if it jumps off a cliff, it drags us down as well.

Actually I didn't end up like the Pharisee.
I humbled myself before God and now, thanks to the grace of God that is available to all who humble themselves before God, live in the state that Jesus died for us to live.

If so you wouldn't have been preaching "sinless perfection," you'd know how much you're indebted to God and you're anything but perfect.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No he didn't fail,

That is right, and as His mission included freeing us from the "flesh", we can now walk in the Spirit instead !

it is you who're equating yourself with Jesus, the only man who's truly sinless and perfect.

He was the first, but not the last.
I can never equate myself with Jesus, but we all can be like Him in our love for God and neighbor.
We can all have the same attributes as Jesus.
We can all have the same close communications with Father.
We can all walk in innocence.
It is written..."It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?" (Matt 10:25)

And..." And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

Do you know Him ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Then how is it comparing apple with orange?

I won't explain it to you.

No I don't, I only see your pride as a bad thing.

You do feel that obedience to God is a bad thing, even calling its accomplishment a heresy !

Pride, sin of all sins.

Pride in a bad thing is a sin.
Proud of Jesus for all He accomplished is a good thing.

Nonetheless we're still in this world, if it jumps off a cliff, it drags us down as well.

You only manifest your subservience to the world with such statements.
I know how you can be free of that yoke.
Turn from sin, destroy your old man, and be reborn of God's seed.

If so you wouldn't have been preaching "sinless perfection," you'd know how much you're indebted to God and you're anything but perfect.

Just as Jesus was sinlessly obedient to God, so are all those who are now "in Christ".
One cannot be "in Christ" and bring forth the devil's fruit.
And, I realize how indebted to God I am, as He is the One who made it possible to be like His Son.
FREE !
Thanks be to God !

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

He was the first, but not the last.
I can never equate myself with Jesus, but we all can be like Him in our love for God and neighbor.

Jesus is the "firstborn among the dead", we'll rise from the dead like He was, but he never promised that we'll be "sinlessly perfect." If you really knew him, you would realize that what he accomplished on the cross is FORGIVENESS of our sin, not making us "sinlessly perfect."

I won't explain it to you.

You have nothing to explain because it was false in the first place.

You do feel that obedience to God is a bad thing, even calling its accomplishment a heresy !

It is your delusion that your own pride of "sinless perfection" is the same as obedience to God.

Pride in a bad thing is a sin.
Proud of Jesus for all He accomplished is a good thing.

You're not proud of Jesus, you're proud of yourself as long as you regard yourself as "sinlessly perfect."

You only manifest your subservience to the world with such statements.
I know how you can be free of that yoke.
Turn from sin, destroy your old man, and be reborn of God's seed.

You should turn from your heresy and repent your deadly sin of pride.

And, I realize how indebted to God I am, as He is the One who made it possible to be like His Son.
FREE !
Thanks be to God !

See, you do equate yourself with him. Did you die for anybody's sin? Is anybody baptized in your name?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Jesus is the "firstborn among the dead", we'll rise from the dead like He was,

Don't you believe in rebirth from God's seed ?
It is mentioned in 1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Rebirth can't occur until the old man is destroyed.
That happens when we take part in Jesus' death and burial by baptism into them. (Rom 6:3-7)
The reborn are walking on earth now.

but he never promised that we'll be "sinlessly perfect." If you really knew him, you would realize that what he accomplished on the cross is FORGIVENESS of our sin, not making us "sinlessly perfect."

Jesus commanded us to be as perfect as God is perfect, in Matt 5:48.
He doesn't command the impossible.
He prayed to Father for it in John 17:22-23.
Forgiveness of sins is but one of the things accomplished on/by the cross.
Our means of destroying/crucifying the flesh and being reborn of the Spirit were also accomplished.
Our freedom from the Law also occurred.
The end of the Adamic nature, replaced by the divine nature, also occurred.
God granted us the gift of repentance from sin, so we could permanently turn from sin.

It is your delusion that your own pride of "sinless perfection" is the same as obedience to God.

If one is obedient to God, they are not committing sin.
God doesn't command us to work iniquity.

You're not proud of Jesus, you're proud of yourself as long as you regard yourself as "sinlessly perfect."

Are you really qualified to tell me what I think ?
What you refer to as "proud", I call "thanksgiving" and "appreciation" for what Jesus has enabled His brothers and sisters to do on earth in His name.
BTW, everyone who has ever been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38, 22:16), was "sinlessly perfect" for a little while.
Those whose repentance from sin was real continue that initial perfection on into the rest of their lives.

You should turn from your heresy and repent your deadly sin of pride.

What is the point of repenting if I can never ever be obedient to God afterwards ?
You would make a poor counselor at a drug and alcohol recovery clinic.
You would be saying..."Quit drugging and drinking...even though it is impossible."
Quitting sin is possible, even commanded by Jesus. (Matt 5:48. John 5:14, 8:11)
Commanded by Paul..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Paul mentions freedom form sin three tines in Romans 6...“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

Are you mentioned in this verse ?..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
Or are you one of those who draws back into perdition ?

See, you do equate yourself with him.

Only in our love for God and neighbor.
He was of Jewish heritage, and I wasn't.

Did you die for anybody's sin? Is anybody baptized in your name?

No.
All I did was hear the gospel and obey it, with a new heart and a new nature.
Thanks be to God for the freedom from sin therein.
I heed the apostles admonissions too..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
Won't you heed that exhortation ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Don't you believe in rebirth from God's seed ?
It is mentioned in 1 John 3:9-10..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
Rebirth can't occur until the old man is destroyed.
That happens when we take part in Jesus' death and burial by baptism into them. (Rom 6:3-7)
The reborn are walking on earth now.

It is also mentioned in 1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Jesus commanded us to be as perfect as God is perfect, in Matt 5:48.
He doesn't command the impossible.
He prayed to Father for it in John 17:22-23.
Forgiveness of sins is but one of the things accomplished on/by the cross.
Our means of destroying/crucifying the flesh and being reborn of the Spirit were also accomplished.
Our freedom from the Law also occurred.
The end of the Adamic nature, replaced by the divine nature, also occurred.
God granted us the gift of repentance from sin, so we could permanently turn from sin.

Are we still subject to earthly death, friend? Do you believe your mortal body is gonna fail one day? If so, you're not permenantly "turned from sin," for the wages of sin is death, and death the last enemy is not defeated - yet.

If one is obedient to God, they are not committing sin.
God doesn't command us to work iniquity.

Neither does he command us preach a heresy of "sinless perfection." As long as you stick to this heresy and see it as "obedience to God", your role model is not Jesus, but the Pharisees.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Are you really qualified to tell me what I think ?
What you refer to as "proud", I call "thanksgiving" and "appreciation" for what Jesus has enabled His brothers and sisters to do on earth in His name.
BTW, everyone who has ever been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (Acts 2:38, 22:16), was "sinlessly perfect" for a little while.
Those whose repentance from sin was real continue that initial perfection on into the rest of their lives.

If you truly had thanksgiving and appreciation, you'd be thankful to His forgiveness of sin. The more spiritually mature, the more sensitive you'd be to sin and the more aware you are of your own sins. You'd never boast of "sinless perfection", which disregards His sacrifice on the cross.

What is the point of repenting if I can never ever be obedient to God afterwards ?
You would make a poor counselor at a drug and alcohol recovery clinic.
You would be saying..."Quit drugging and drinking...even though it is impossible."
Quitting sin is possible, even commanded by Jesus. (Matt 5:48. John 5:14, 8:11)

It seems impossible to you as long as you can't quit preaching the heresy of sinless perfection. True signs of rebirth is confessing your sins and appreciating his forgiveness, not the delusion of "sinless perfection".

Are you mentioned in this verse ?..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
Or are you one of those who draws back into perdition ?

No, I'm one of those who understand human nature and God's timeline, that only will "sinless perfection" be possible in Christ's millennial kingdom upon his return, which is NOT now.

Only in our love for God and neighbor.
He was of Jewish heritage, and I wasn't.

But he is the one and only man who's truly sinless, which you aren't.

No.

Then how on earth could you be perfectly sinless?

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is also mentioned in 1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

John is using an A-B, A-B, A-B, style of writing to juxtapose those who walk in darkness-sin against those who walk in the light-God. (Paul used the same method to juxtapose those who walk in the "flesh" against those who walk in the Spirit, in Romans 8.)
Verses 5, 7, and 9, apply to those who are in, or about to be in, the light-God, and had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
Verses 6, 8, and 10, apply to those who walk in the darkness-sin.
John makes it clear, in 1 John 2:4-6, which is which..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Are we still subject to earthly death, friend?

what ever happens to the vessel doesn't concern me.
I am already seated in heavenly places in Christ. (Eph 2:6)

Do you believe your mortal body is gonna fail one day?

Yes, but "I" am not the body.
The body is just a carrying case.

If so, you're not permenantly "turned from sin," for the wages of sin is death, and death the last enemy is not defeated - yet.

I have already suffered that death when I was baptized into Christ's death.
A new me was then raised from the grave with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

Neither does he command us preach a heresy of "sinless perfection."

As the fitting results of Jesus' life and death, and life again, are not a heresy to anyone but those who prefer to walk in darkness, your concerns for me are unfounded.

As long as you stick to this heresy and see it as "obedience to God", your role model is not Jesus, but the Pharisees.

John wrote..."Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)
I will be like Him when He sees me.
John wrote..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:4-6)
Do the Pharisees match up with those verses ?
Do you ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

If you truly had thanksgiving and appreciation, you'd be thankful to His forgiveness of sin. The more spiritually mature, the more sensitive you'd be to sin and the more aware you are of your own sins. You'd never boast of "sinless perfection", which disregards His sacrifice on the cross.

As I was just like everyone else, born with a conscience, I know what is a sin.
And I can't understand why you refer to obedience to God as boasting ?
He is the One that makes it possible.
Thanks be to God !
BTW, how does continuing in sin regard Jesus' sacrifice on the cross ?

It seems impossible to you as long as you can't quit preaching the heresy of sinless perfection. True signs of rebirth is confessing your sins and appreciating his forgiveness, not the delusion of "sinless perfection".

It wasn't impossible for me, as I seem to keep expounding on it day after day with you.
It seems to be you who can't repent of sin, as you are the one defending sinning.

No, I'm one of those who understand human nature and God's timeline, that only will "sinless perfection" be possible in Christ's millennial kingdom upon his return, which is NOT now.

Your time-line is bereft of rebirth from God's seed.
My old human nature was destroyed at baptism into Christ.
It is written..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:27)
My new nature is the nature of my Predecessor.

But he is the one and only man who's truly sinless, which you aren't.

It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Why doesn't that apply to you ?

Then how on earth could you be perfectly sinless?

As I wrote before..."All I did was hear the gospel and obey it, with a new heart and a new nature.
Thanks be to God for the freedom from sin therein.
I heed the apostles' admonissions too..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
Won't you heed that exhortation ?"

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

John is using an A-B, A-B, A-B, style of writing to juxtapose those who walk in darkness-sin against those who walk in the light-God. (Paul used the same method to juxtapose those who walk in the "flesh" against those who walk in the Spirit, in Romans 8.)
Verses 5, 7, and 9, apply to those who are in, or about to be in, the light-God, and had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
Verses 6, 8, and 10, apply to those who walk in the darkness-sin.
John makes it clear, in 1 John 2:4-6, which is which..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

There is no such juxtaposition, you made it up to suit your own narrative. Denying our sin would have his sacrifice on the cross nullified. For the last time, John didn't write "THOSE who walk in the darkness" and "THOSE who walk in the light," he didn't switch "those" and "us", he was addressing to the church, to us in the whole passage.

what ever happens to the vessel doesn't concern me.
I am already seated in heavenly places in Christ. (Eph 2:6)

Yes, but "I" am not the body.
The body is just a carrying case.

Now on top of the heresy of "sinless perfection", you're preaching the heresy of gnostic dualism. Don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, bought with the price of the Lord's precious blood? Don't you know that the church is the Body of Christ? How could you say that the body is just a "carrying case"?

I have already suffered that death when I was baptized into Christ's death.
A new me was then raised from the grave with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Cor. 7:52-54)

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thess. 4:16)

Show me when the trumpet sounded. Show me when did the Lord descend from heaven. Show me where was the archangel. If you can't, then admit that all of this is scheduled in the future, and you're still in your corruptible body.

As the fitting results of Jesus' life and death, and life again, are not a heresy to anyone but those who prefer to walk in darkness, your concerns for me are unfounded.

It is founded as long as you exalt yourself as "sinlessly perfect". It is founded as long as you didn't die for anybody's sins.

I will be like Him when He sees me.

He sees you as a sinner: "‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’" (Lk. 18:13)

Do the Pharisees match up with those verses ?
Do you ?

Yes, everytime you self-congratulatorily mutters, "thanks be to God"! That's exactly as the same as the Pharisee who prayed with HIMSELF - "God, I thank you blah blah blah."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

As I was just like everyone else, born with a conscience, I know what is a sin.
And I can't understand why you refer to obedience to God as boasting ?

Because you're anything but obedient to God, you're talking about yourself and boasting about yourself the whole time, exactly like that Pharisee.

BTW, how does continuing in sin regard Jesus' sacrifice on the cross ?

Don't ask me, ask yourself why you continue in your deadly sin of pride.

It wasn't impossible for me, as I seem to keep expounding on it day after day with you.
It seems to be you who can't repent of sin, as you are the one defending sinning.

Then stop "expounding" and confess your sins to the Lord. I never defended sinning, I'm exposing your heresy of "sinless perfection". You don't know what is a sin, you believe sin doesn't exist anymore, whereas this world is more sinful than ever before.

Your time-line is bereft of rebirth from God's seed.
My old human nature was destroyed at baptism into Christ.
It is written..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal 3:27)
My new nature is the nature of my Predecessor.

But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” (Gal. 4:29-30)

Paul is crystal clear about the ongoing struggle between our old human nature and the new one in Christ, "even so it is now." He didn't say the bondwoman was "already" cast out as you suppose. The Scripture doesn't contradict itself, it only contradicts heresies.

It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Why doesn't that apply to you ?

Each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Jm. 1:14-15)
Why doesn't that apply to you? Was James writing to unsaved, unwashed heathens?

As I wrote before..."All I did was hear the gospel and obey it, with a new heart and a new nature.
Thanks be to God for the freedom from sin therein.
I heed the apostles' admonissions too..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
Won't you heed that exhortation ?"

"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
Won't you receive that gospel and repent your sins?

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is no such juxtaposition, you made it up to suit your own narrative.

As both walking in the light-God and walking in darkness-sin are included in 1 John 1, you seem to have missed it.

Denying our sin would have his sacrifice on the cross nullified.

For sure, but by walking in the light-God, we won't commit any more sins.
By our being in Him, in Whom is no darkness, there won't be any sin in us either.

For the last time, John didn't write "THOSE who walk in the darkness" and "THOSE who walk in the light," he didn't switch "those" and "us", he was addressing to the church, to us in the whole passage.

I don't recall you mentioning the words I used before.
You are preaching, then, that we can walk in light-God and darkness-sin at the same time.
I, and 1 John 1:5, can't agree.
John's efforts at aiding our ability to define who does and who does not love and know God with all their heart, soul, and mind, were wasted on you.
I am glad he added... "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."...to make the differentiation easier.

Now on top of the heresy of "sinless perfection", you're preaching the heresy of gnostic dualism.

The ability to remain obedient to God is not heresy.
The ability to walk in God, and in sin at the same time, is a heresy, though.

Don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, bought with the price of the Lord's precious blood? Don't you know that the church is the Body of Christ? How could you say that the body is just a "carrying case"?

It is just that, a carrying case for the new me, and the Holy Spirit's temple.
Of course, He won't remain here if I commit sin, as He won't reside in a polluted temple.

For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Cor. 7:52-54)

Amen to that verse.
No more temporary vessel, but a new, glorified one.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thess. 4:16)

OK.

Show me when the trumpet sounded. Show me when did the Lord descend from heaven. Show me where was the archangel. If you can't, then admit that all of this is scheduled in the future, and you're still in your corruptible body.

Oh it is in the future.
And on that blessed day we will no longer have to dwell in temporary vessels that rot with age and wear.

It is founded as long as you exalt yourself as "sinlessly perfect". It is founded as long as you didn't die for anybody's sins.

I don't exalt myself, but I do exalt my Creator who allowed the death and burial of my old self so I could be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life!
A life like Jesus walked, to the glory of God !

He sees you as a sinner: "‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’" (Lk. 18:13)

He did until I had a real repentance from sin and was washed by the blood of Christ of my past sins.
A new creature, reborn of God's seed, is how He sees me now.
If you would really repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your past sins, He would see you as He sees me and all who love Him more than they loved sin.

Yes, everytime you self-congratulatorily mutters, "thanks be to God"! That's exactly as the same as the Pharisee who prayed with HIMSELF - "God, I thank you blah blah blah."

I certainly wouldn't be thanking Him for leaving me in my sins.
Paul wrote..." Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:16-18)
That is the doctrine you erroneously call a heresy.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Because you're anything but obedient to God, you're talking about yourself and boasting about yourself the whole time, exactly like that Pharisee.

Point out my sin, or stop lying about me.

Don't ask me, ask yourself why you continue in your deadly sin of pride.

There is only submission on obedience to God.

Then stop "expounding" and confess your sins to the Lord.

If I confess my alleged sins, I will be say "I have no sin".
And we can start going around in circles again.
You prescribe the treatment for the thing you say is impossible.

I never defended sinning, I'm exposing your heresy of "sinless perfection". You don't know what is a sin, you believe sin doesn't exist anymore, whereas this world is more sinful than ever before.

Think again.
I preach life without sinning, and you attempt to refute it.

But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

I am surprised you can see that truth, much less to admit to it.

Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” (Gal. 4:29-30)

That is correct, and neither will those who walk in darkness-sin inherit what those who walk in light-God receive.

Paul is crystal clear about the ongoing struggle between our old human nature and the new one in Christ, "even so it is now." He didn't say the bondwoman was "already" cast out as you suppose. The Scripture doesn't contradict itself, it only contradicts heresies.

I don't subscribe to the double-minded-convert doctrine.
Walk in the Spirit and not in the "flesh".
The bond woman was cast out centuries ago, as a lesson to us.

Each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (Jm. 1:14-15)
Why doesn't that apply to you? Was James writing to unsaved, unwashed heathens?

It did apply to me, when I walked in the "flesh".
But it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
My old "flesh, with its vile affections and lusts, were killed with Christ at my "immersion" into Jesus and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3)
It is about unwashed heathens.

"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
Won't you receive that gospel and repent your sins?

I did a long time ago.
Won't you accept God into your life and quit walking in darkness-sin ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

As both walking in the light-God and walking in darkness-sin are included in 1 John 1, you seem to have missed it.

For sure, but by walking in the light-God, we won't commit any more sins.
By our being in Him, in Whom is no darkness, there won't be any sin in us either.

But do you still live in a sinful world? Do you interact with other people who're in darkness? How do you deal with the sins committed by OTHER people that have a great impact on you? If you tell me there's no such thing, then you're lying to me, to yourself and to God. What you have missed is the difference between the FORGIVENESS of sin and the absence of sin.

I don't recall you mentioning the words I used before.
You are preaching, then, that we can walk in light-God and darkness-sin at the same time.
I, and 1 John 1:5, can't agree.
John's efforts at aiding our ability to define who does and who does not love and know God with all their heart, soul, and mind, were wasted on you.
I am glad he added... "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."...to make the differentiation easier.

You're preaching that John wrote half the passage to "those" walking in darkness and half the passage to "us" walking in light in order to nullify the message in 1:6, 8, 10, that is contrary to the Scripture, there's no such contrast between "us" and "those", as there's no such a "those" group therein, you made that up.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The ability to remain obedient to God is not heresy.
The ability to walk in God, and in sin at the same time, is a heresy, though.

It is a heresy to disregard the physical body which God created in His image. Every sinner is made in His image.

It is just that, a carrying case for the new me, and the Holy Spirit's temple.
Of course, He won't remain here if I commit sin, as He won't reside in a polluted temple.

You wouldn't juxtapose "carrying case" and "Holy Spirit's temple" in the same sentence if you truly believe that the body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. As long as you continue to refer the body as a "carrying case", you're under the influence of gnostic dualism, that the body is not real, it's evil, it's merely a prison for the soul.

Amen to that verse.
No more temporary vessel, but a new, glorified one.

Oh it is in the future.
And on that blessed day we will no longer have to dwell in temporary vessels that rot with age and wear.

But you think it's the present, that we're already living in the kingdom, you're already in that new glorified body, when in reality we're living in a dystopia and we're sicker than ever. You have no discernment.

I don't exalt myself, but I do exalt my Creator who allowed the death and burial of my old self so I could be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life!
A life like Jesus walked, to the glory of God !

You wouldn't have disregard the body as a "carrying case" if you truly exalt your Creator who created the body in his image. You wouldn't have preached "sinless perfection" if you truly admit that Jesus and Jesus alone is sinlessly perfect, all our perceived righteousness of our own is like filthy rags in the eyes of God.

He did until I had a real repentance from sin and was washed by the blood of Christ of my past sins.
A new creature, reborn of God's seed, is how He sees me now.
If you would really repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your past sins, He would see you as He sees me and all who love Him more than they loved sin.

Denial of sin and reality is a sign of you not having repented. Had you truly repented, you'd known the gravity and consequences of sin, and you'd borne fruits worthy of repentance.

I certainly wouldn't be thanking Him for leaving me in my sins.

While I thank him for giving me all the stuffs I have which I don't deserve, and taking away the wrath which I do deserve. You'd never understand that as long as you perceive yourself as "sinlessly perfect".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Point out my sin, or stop lying about me.

Pride, sin of all sins.

There is only submission on obedience to God.

No, you've been boasting and gloating in self righteousness and piety.

If I confess my alleged sins, I will be say "I have no sin".
And we can start going around in circles again.
You prescribe the treatment for the thing you say is impossible.

That's because you don't read the Torah, you don't know the law, therefore you don't know sin.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”(Rom. 7:7)

Think again.
I preach life without sinning, and you attempt to refute it.

Think again, Rom. 7:7. Ignorance is not strength, denial of sin doesn't make it disappear.

I am surprised you can see that truth, much less to admit to it.

Yes, I admit it, you don't. You can't see the truth of the present, ongoing struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

I don't subscribe to the double-minded-convert doctrine.
Walk in the Spirit and not in the "flesh".
The bond woman was cast out centuries ago, as a lesson to us.

I don't subscribe to "instant ticket to heaven" or "sinless perfection" doctrine. You're denying the necessary spiritual journey and sanctification, which lasts for a lifetime.

It did apply to me, when I walked in the "flesh".
But it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
My old "flesh, with its vile affections and lusts, were killed with Christ at my "immersion" into Jesus and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3)
It is about unwashed heathens.

Again, you're contradicting the Scripture. James wrote this to the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1), he wrote to US, not heathens!

I did a long time ago.
Won't you accept God into your life and quit walking in darkness-sin ?

No you didn't. Christ couldn't have died for such a conceited, insolent person who thinks he's immune to sin, because according to you, you're "sinlessly perfect", you have no need for Christ. "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick." (Lk. 5:31)

 

[Hopeful 2]

But do you still live in a sinful world?

Who cares about the world ?
I am not of this world since my rebirth from God's seed.

Do you interact with other people who're in darkness?

Yes, but not on any personal level.

How do you deal with the sins committed by OTHER people that have a great impact on you?

I can't do anything.
If their sins are against me, I forgive, and move on.

If you tell me there's no such thing, then you're lying to me, to yourself and to God. What you have missed is the difference between the FORGIVENESS of sin and the absence of sin.

See above.

You're preaching that John wrote half the passage to "those" walking in darkness and half the passage to "us" walking in light in order to nullify the message in 1:6, 8, 10, that is contrary to the Scripture, there's no such contrast between "us" and "those", as there's no such a "those" group therein, you made that up.

John is writing to the church about two different kinds of men.
Those who know God and walk in light-God, and those who don't know God walk in darkness-sin.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

If we do A this happens. Verses 5, 7, and 9.
If we do B this happens. Verses 6, 8, and 10.

It is a heresy to disregard the physical body which God created in His image. Every sinner is made in His image.

No baby was a sinner when he was born.

You wouldn't juxtapose "carrying case" and "Holy Spirit's temple" in the same sentence if you truly believe that the body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.

I wasn't juxtaposing them.
I was showing two different perspectives of the same thing.

As long as you continue to refer the body as a "carrying case", you're under the influence of gnostic dualism, that the body is not real, it's evil, it's merely a prison for the soul.

The body is just a vessel.
It is neither good nor bad.
The person at the "wheel" will get the credit, or blame, for what it causes the vessel to do

But you think it's the present, that we're already living in the kingdom, you're already in that new glorified body, when in reality we're living in a dystopia and we're sicker than ever. You have no discernment.

You seem not to know what I think.
Only the converted are living in His kingdom.
The vessel awaits its glorification.
The world is sicker than ever, but I am not in any way "we" with it.

You wouldn't have disregard the body as a "carrying case" if you truly exalt your Creator who created the body in his image. You wouldn't have preached "sinless perfection" if you truly admit that Jesus and Jesus alone is sinlessly perfect, all our perceived righteousness of our own is like filthy rags in the eyes of God.

You are on the verge of "Body" idolization.
The body is just a vessel for His uses.
Jesus, our example in how to live, was the first perfectly obedient man.
And thanks to Him, we can now all be perfectly obedient.
Thanks be to God !

Denial of sin and reality is a sign of you not having repented.

Quitting sinning is THE sign of repentance from sin.

Had you truly repented, you'd known the gravity and consequences of sin, and you'd borne fruits worthy of repentance.

I knew the gravity and consequences of sin well before I turned from them and unto God.
Are you saying that because you have not yet repented that you don't yet know the gravity or consequences of sin ?

While I thank him for giving me all the stuffs I have which I don't deserve, and taking away the wrath which I do deserve. You'd never understand that as long as you perceive yourself as "sinlessly perfect".

Sinning after having repented of sin, just makes the prior repentance a lie to God.

It is written...
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Why are you stalling ?

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
What are you waiting for ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Pride, sin of all sins.

Where is your proof ?
As I have done nothing but obey God, His Son, and the apostles, there isn't anything for me to be proud of.

No, you've been boasting and gloating in self righteousness and piety.

Your rejection of my words is noted, but that doesn't make what I write erroneous.

That's because you don't read the Torah, you don't know the law, therefore you don't know sin.

As John wrote in 1 John 5;17, "All unrighteousness is sin..."
I don't need the Torah for that.
So, with all your knowledge of the Torah, how has that helped you remain pure ?

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”(Rom. 7:7)

All Paul's learning, and knowledge of the Torah, and still he was just another sinning Jew.
There goes you logic on knowledge.

Think again, Rom. 7:7. Ignorance is not strength, denial of sin doesn't make it disappear.

If there is no sin, there is nothing to deny.

Yes, I admit it, you don't. You can't see the truth of the present, ongoing struggle between the flesh and the spirit.

I hope you will some day believe Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

I don't subscribe to "instant ticket to heaven" or "sinless perfection" doctrine. You're denying the necessary spiritual journey and sanctification, which lasts for a lifetime.

There is some more false teaching you've bought into.
Sanctification happens when the blood of the Sanctifier is applied to your body.
It happens when we are "immersed" into Christ and into His death.
Of course if the repentance from sin was a lie, the whole deal is off.

Again, you're contradicting the Scripture. James wrote this to the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (James 1:1), he wrote to US, not heathens!

As I was referring to Galatians and Romans. your side-track is a moot point.

No you didn't. Christ couldn't have died for such a conceited, insolent person who thinks he's immune to sin, because according to you, you're "sinlessly perfect", you have no need for Christ. "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick." (Lk. 5:31)

Is this how you react every time someone teaches you about things you don't know already ?

"Immune to sin"...interesting concept.
Do you beleive James 4:7 ?..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

By they way, those perfectly obedient to God need Christ as much or more than the lost.
Jesus is far more than just a physician.
The lost need Him for their eventual salvation, but the converted need Him for every phase of daily life.

Resist the devil and he will flee from you !

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Who cares about the world ?
I am not of this world since my rebirth from God's seed.

A true child of God, who stewards his father's creation and cares about it more than anybody else.

Yes, but not on any personal level.

I don't believe you. Nobody is insulated from the world without any influence to them on a personal level.

I can't do anything.
If their sins are against me, I forgive, and move on.

The way you describe it, you don't forgive, you ignore, you pretend sin doesn't exist.

See above.

All above is your heresies and self-righteousness.

John is writing to the church about two different kinds of men.
Those who know God and walk in light-God, and those who don't know God walk in darkness-sin.

No, John is only writing to one group, the church. The Father chastises and disciplines his own.

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit." (Jn. 15:1-2)

If we do A this happens. Verses 5, 7, and 9.
If we do B this happens. Verses 6, 8, and 10.

Don't you know these verse marks didn't exist in the original text? That John originally wrote this as one cohesive passage?

No baby was a sinner when he was born.

Great, more heresy, denial of the original sin!

Just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. (Rom. 5:12)

I wasn't juxtaposing them.
I was showing two different perspectives of the same thing.

Yes you are, don't bother to deny. You have only one perspective of dualistic gnosticism - mind over matter, spirit good, body bad.

The body is just a vessel.
It is neither good nor bad.
The person at the "wheel" will get the credit, or blame, for what it causes the vessel to do

Neither good nor bad? Last time I checked, God made male and female in His image, and it was VERY good! (Gen. 1:31)

You seem not to know what I think.
Only the converted are living in His kingdom.
The vessel awaits its glorification.
The world is sicker than ever, but I am not in any way "we" with it.

Oh no, you're very explicit at what you think - the heresy of "sinless perfection". You've been oozing with pride, looking down on others as unwashed heathens.

You are on the verge of "Body" idolization.
The body is just a vessel for His uses.
Jesus, our example in how to live, was the first perfectly obedient man.
And thanks to Him, we can now all be perfectly obedient.
Thanks be to God !

Church is the Body of Christ, we're taught to partake in his body, to eat his flesh and drink his blood! How could you say it's just a "vessel" when the Lord's own flesh and blood are the essence of eternal life? How is that perfect obedience to God?

Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” (Jn. 6:53-58)

Quitting sinning is THE sign of repentance from sin.

You wouldn't have been so obsessed with yourself and your pet heresy if you have truly repented and quit sinning.

I knew the gravity and consequences of sin well before I turned from them and unto God.
Are you saying that because you have not yet repented that you don't yet know the gravity or consequences of sin ?

I know, you don't.

Sinning after having repented of sin, just makes the prior repentance a lie to God.

You don't look to Jesus as the model of sinless perfection, you look to yourself in the mirror.