Contradicting Beliefs

[Jethro Bodine]

An issue I brought up many times no one will address is if I do not have to do what God says when it comes to music then why would I have to do anything God says at all??

There are things that matter, and there are things that don't matter.

Whether you sing any songs, or not, in church and how you do that, and whether or not you're going to commit adultery with your neighbor's wife are clearly miles apart in what matters in a person's life.

Do you think God will judge the ungodly on the basis of worship music, or on things like adultery?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think your absolutely correct with this statement. If Christianity is as you say above, then it is as you say above, but if it isn't, then it is something else. But, if that something else is that only one of those religious organizations is the true one, then it is still what you say above; hypocritical sham with no bases, no truth, no credibility whatsoever. So......it has to be something else. What could that be for you?

To begin with, I would say if you asked each person on this forum if the organization they belong to is that one church Christ established holding that one faith, they would all say "yes". And they become guilty of what they accuse me. If they respond by saying 'well these other organizations are that one church too' then they dug a hole they cannot get out of for again there is ONE body, One faith Eph 4:4-5 and not a multitude of bodies with conflicting faiths. Simple basic math 1=1 and 1 does not equal 1,000's.

You post "I think your absolutely correct with this statement" But the reality is there are many diverse organizations with contradicting faiths yet all claim to be that one body holding that one faith. Just look in your local yellow pages under the term "churches". There are Baptist, mehtodist, Pentecostals, Seven Day Adventists, Catholics, Assemblies of God, etc etc. Can you give me a simple explanation as to how they can all be that ONE church with that one faith when they represent a mulitude of organizations with contradictory faiths. If you do not think the church of Christ is that one church Christ established holding that one faith, that's fine with me, but please explain how all these can be that ONE church with that one faith when they represent a mulitude of organizations with contradictory faiths?

[Hint: to save you time and a headache - you will never be able to reasonably, biblically explain how a multitude of organizations with contradicting faith can be that one body holding that one faith.]


you posted " if that something else is that only one of those religious organizations is the true one, then it is still what you say above"

I do not follow this. How can Christ's one body with one faith be a contradictory hypocrital sham with no truth or credibility?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Your missing the point, but your missing it because you want to.

You posted " When we hold our path as the one and only true way..."

ETB: Exactly how many ways are there to be saved?



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, you're missing the point of this thread.

How many biblical ways to be saved? ONE

Yet according to the multitude of religious organizations with there many conflicting faiths there are a mulitude of ways to be saved.

So can a person be saved any old way these organizations say or can only be saved by the ONE biblical way?

 

[reba]

Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

..

 

[Aloysium]

The point of this thread was to show that Christ did establish His church (not any man made denominations) and He established only ONE church, ONE body and ONE faith and Christ is the Saviour of that ONE body and not the Saviour of other bodies or organizations Mat 16:18 Eph 4:4-5. This point is not even arguable. Christ never established a multitude of churches with conflicting number of faiths.

i'll give you my take on this:

there is one true church,
Christ knows the members of His church, the real church
i do not see it the same as as the cultural, political, social entities that one identifies with . . . it is a universal church

you put more value in human thought than i do

contrary beliefs? . . . that is everywhere

in fact it may be sanctioned by God
like in the Tower of Babel
where physically reaching for heaven,
left us speaking languages we do not understand
so too, if what we are engaged in
is a belief or intellectual answer whose sole purpose is not bringing us closer to God,
we could be left in total confusion
unable to convey our message and not understanding the other

isn't the important thing, to do God's will
this makes one a member of His church
members of His church help each other to that end
whatever human denomination they belong to

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You will find saved people in and among ALL denominations. The sum total of those saved people is the Church of Jesus Christ. To think any one denomination represents the saved people of God is to not understand the kingdom of God. There is a day coming when the kingdom of God will be pure and only filled with the righteous.

you post "You will find saved people in and among ALL denominations."

If this is true then the bible is a contradicting book written by a confused auther and salvation is gained by all the contradictions created by man and God has nothing to do with it. Nowhere did God ever tell man to be saved anyway you so choose even if you contradict each other.

Yet there is just biblical one way to be saved. Cannot be saved by faith and faith only. Both are polar opposites, both are contradicting positions and not possible both can save.

you post "The sum total of those saved people is the Church of Jesus Christ"

Chirst established ONE body and ONE faith Eph 4:4-5 and not a multitude of organizations with contradicting faiths. As I said before if Christianity were truly made up of thousands of organizations with contradicting beliefs then is is a hypocritcal mess with no bases, no truth, no credibility.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

There are things that matter, and there are things that don't matter.

Whether you sing any songs, or not, in church and how you do that, and whether or not you're going to commit adultery with your neighbor's wife are clearly miles apart in what matters in a person's life.

Do you think God will judge the ungodly on the basis of worship music, or on things like adultery?

Who determines what issues matter and what issues do not matter?

Is obeying and doing as God said an important matter? YES for it is the difference between obedience/righteous/salvation and unrighteousness/sin/condemnation.

If I do not have to do as God said concerning music, then why would I have to do anything God said about other issues as salvation. You said in your other post you essentially said each denomination can determine how one is saved and not God. For God never created the contradicting ways of salvation all these denominations go by.

 

[Danus]

You posted " When we hold our path as the one and only true way..."

ETB: Exactly how many ways are there to be saved?



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, you're missing the point of this thread.

How many biblical ways to be saved? ONE

Yet according to the multitude of religious organizations with there many conflicting faiths there are a mulitude of ways to be saved.

So can a person be saved any old way these organizations say or can only be saved by the ONE biblical way?

Because you see salvation as something you do, and that's why when I say path to God, you see that as path to being saved; a path one chooses correctly or incorrectly.

What you're missing is that man does not choose his salvation but he thinks he does, or can, or should, or he must. That's why we have all these religions and organizations all claiming to be the way, not realizing God is the way, and so you're worried with being correct, and in fear of other denominations. You think that they are leading people astray because you are lead by your churches teachings, so all those other people must also be. This is where you want to be.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

i'll give you my take on this:

there is one true church,
Christ knows the members of His church, the real church
i do not see it the same as as the cultural, political, social entities that one identifies with . . . it is a universal church

Eph 4:4-5 there is ONE body with ONE faith. God never created a mulitiude of bodies with many, contradicting faiths. So there can be no such thing as a universal church made up of many bodies with many contradicitng faiths...not possible at all, not biblically possible, not mathematically possible for 1=1 and 1 does not equal 1,000's

you put more value in human thought than i do

No, human "thought" created all the organizations with conflicting faiths.

contrary beliefs? . . . that is everywhere

So logically then every religious organization cannot have hold that ONE faith in the bible. The bible does not contradict itself as all these groups do so that is all the prrof I need that all CANNOT be going by the bible. If they were all truly goiong by hte bible then they would all be in one accord, walking by the same rule and all having a 'like precoius faith' But this is not remotely what is happening.

in fact it may be sanctioned by God
like in the Tower of Babel
where physically reaching for heaven,
left us speaking languages we do not understand
so too, if what we are engaged in
is a belief or intellectual answer whose sole purpose is not bringing us closer to God,
we could be left in total confusion
unable to convey our message and not understanding the other

isn't the important thing, to do God's will
this makes one a member of His church
members of His church help each other to that end
whatever human denomination they belong to

Can you show me from the bible where God sanctioned more than ONE body with many contradicting faiths? God is not the author of confusion. Jesus once said "Thy word is truth: and truth does not contradict itself like all these various organizations do, further proof for me they CANNOT all have "the truth".

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by Danus
He loves us so much. Only then do we truly see and are able to truly follow, not because we have to, or even want to, but be cause we've no choice but to.

Okay, I bumped this up again in case you missed it the first time.


So then, who's fault was it that Judas is lost?

 

[Danus]

To begin with, I would say if you asked each person on this forum if the organization they belong to is that one church Christ established holding that one faith, they would all say "yes". And they become guilty of what they accuse me. If they respond by saying 'well these other organizations are that one church too' then they dug a hole they cannot get out of for again there is ONE body, One faith Eph 4:4-5 and not a multitude of bodies with conflicting faiths. Simple basic math 1=1 and 1 does not equal 1,000's.

You post "I think your absolutely correct with this statement" But the reality is there are many diverse organizations with contradicting faiths yet all claim to be that one body holding that one faith. Just look in your local yellow pages under the term "churches". There are Baptist, mehtodist, Pentecostals, Seven Day Adventists, Catholics, Assemblies of God, etc etc. Can you give me a simple explanation as to how they can all be that ONE church with that one faith when they represent a mulitude of organizations with contradictory faiths. If you do not think the church of Christ is that one church Christ established holding that one faith, that's fine with me, but please explain how all these can be that ONE church with that one faith when they represent a mulitude of organizations with contradictory faiths?

[Hint: to save you time and a headache - you will never be able to reasonably, biblically explain how a multitude of organizations with contradicting faith can be that one body holding that one faith.]


you posted " if that something else is that only one of those religious organizations is the true one, then it is still what you say above"

I do not follow this. How can Christ's one body with one faith be a contradictory hypocrital sham with no truth or credibility?

I'm sure your right. Do you think your chose the right church?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Because you see salvation as something you do, and that's why when I say path to God, you see that as path to being saved; a path one chooses correctly or incorrectly.

What you're missing is that man does not choose his salvation but he thinks he does, or can, or should, or he must. That's why we have all these religions and organizations all claiming to be the way, not realizing God is the way, and so you're worried with being correct, and in fear of other denominations. You think that they are leading people astray because you are lead by your churches teachings, so all those other people must also be. This is where you want to be.

The issue of this thread is not really about how I see salvation or how you see salvation or how others see salvation. The issue is there are obviously many varying groups believing CONTRADICTING ways to being saved.

Can they all be correct as to how to be saved while holding contradicting ways to be saved? I say NO!!!! If you say 'yes' then you are left with the impossible task of straigtening out the contradictions and some how make them not contradicting. The bible does not contradict itself about how man is to be saved. Anyone that holds to the idea that all these organizations contradicting ways to being saved is truth, (truth does not contradict itself) I would love to see them clear up these contradictions yet leave each group saved by their contradicting ways.

 

[Aloysium]

you seem to be focussed on churches . . . i don't know enough about these organizations and their belief systems

if you are frustrated with the limits of human thought and its ability to contain the "Truth" . . . well there are some things you have to accept . . . ultimately, Truth is found in the reality of the living Christ . . . i hope i'm not adding to the confusion, but that is as good as words can get

if you are interested in becoming a member of His church, the universal church, you simply have to do His will

the question then becomes: How do i do God's will? . . . for me the answer is immediate: "Your will, not my will be done"

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm sure your right. Do you think your chose the right church?

Technically, biblically there is no "choosing" churches since Christ establish one. There is no choice to be made among one option, either one is a member of that one church or not.

The reason I attend where I attend is they are diligently, honestly trying to go by what the bible says, nothing more or less. So when it comes to issues as IM, God said sing so we sing. It really is just that simple just doing as God said the best we can. We do not use IM just to stir up arguments with other people or to just stick out like a sore thumb we sing simply because that is what said and doing as God said is a matter of obedience/righteousness/salvation. I can go through the whole bible showing example after exmaple of God punishing people for not doing as He said, [Uzzah touching the ark, Moses hitting the rock instead of speaking to it] Why do people today think they are immune to God's punishment if they do not do as He says? The same God that punished them for not doing as He said certainly will punish us.

Of course those in other groups will say they are going by what the bible says, nothing more nothing less. But again they all cannot be going by what the bible says and contradict each other as much as they do. It will come down as who can prove what they believe is from the bible, some think they are proving what they believe is from the bible but they are not else they would all be in agreement with each other for the bible does not create contradictions.


EDIT some say some issues matters and others issues do not matter. As I see it, all issues God deals with matters. And i give issues as music the same respect, importance and study as I do with other bible issues as salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

you seem to be focussed on churches . . . i don't know enough about these organizations and their belief systems

if you are frustrated with the limits of human thought and its ability to contain the "Truth" . . . well there are some things you have to accept . . . ultimately, Truth is found in the reality of the living Christ . . . i hope i'm not adding to the confusion, but that is as good as words can get

if you are interested in becoming a member of His church, the universal church, you simply have to do His will

the question then becomes: How do i do God's will? . . . for me the answer is immediate: "Your will, not my will be done"

Yes I am focusing in on Eph 4:4-5 where it says there is ONE body and ONE faith. If you look around you and you will se many bodies with many CONTRADICTING faiths which is NOT what Eph 4:4-5 says.

My argument is that all these groups cannot hold bible truth for the truth does not contradict itself as these groups do.

Define what you mean by "universal church".

Many people think they are doin God's will be they contradict each in what they do. Since God's word does not contradict itself then all these people arenot doing God's will they only think they are. If they all were really doing God's will they would all have a like precious faith doing the same things...but they are NOT!

 

[Danus]

The issue of this thread is not really about how I see salvation or how you see salvation or how others see salvation. The issue is there are obviously many varying groups believing CONTRADICTING ways to being saved.

Can they all be correct as to how to be saved while holding contradicting ways to be saved? I say NO!!!! If you say 'yes' then you are left with the impossible task of straigtening out the contradictions and some how make them not contradicting. The bible does not contradict itself about how man is to be saved. Anyone that holds to the idea that all these organizations contradicting ways to being saved is truth, (truth does not contradict itself) I would love to see them clear up these contradictions yet leave each group saved by their contradicting ways.

Correct. There is only one way to be saved. They can't all be correct. Which one is? You keep going back to the same false dilemma of there being a church that leads to salvation. you refuse to believe God saves anyone. You have rejected that for the belief that people must choose a way to be saved, and so you are stuck trying to figure out among the many ways there are, even when it's been explained over and over. So you tell me. Which of the man made notions of being saved is correct. You say it's the CoC. Ok. sounds good to me. Are you good with that?

I have already given you my answer Bass. You know where I stand. I am saved. I know I am saved. I have complete and absolute solid confidence in what Christ has done. I do not question it. I am secure in my salvation. I did not save myself, nor did any church save me. Frankly I attend a church because I love God, not because I love the church. The church is a whore Bass. But she is my mother. So you tell me, which whore is the best? which one is the right path to salvation? Are you really wanting to place your salvation in the teachings of a church? If so, then pick any church you like. If you like the CoC fine. Christianity is about surrendering to a relationship with God. it's not found in any church. The church is just a body of believers, so in that sense the true church is made up of the body of true believers. Are you one? Because if you are then it does not matter what church you attend, because those people who go there need you to reflect Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Correct. There is only one way to be saved. They can't all be correct. Which one is?

That's it. Baptist, Catholics, Pentecostals etc etc cannot all be right, cannot all be that ONE body holding that ONE faith. Some if not most do not want to think thios for they want to think all can be saved in their contradiction. My point is to show them they all cannot be right.

You keep going back to the same false dilemma of there being a church that leads to salvation.

Yes, the bible says Christ establish His one body the church and is the Saviour of that one body and not any other bodies.
This is not a false delimma but a biblical fact. Eph 4:4-5.

you refuse to believe God saves anyone.

I never said this. The bible says Christ saves but He saves only those in his ONE body. Nowhere does the bible say He saves those outside His one body.

You have rejected that for the belief that people must choose a way to be saved, and so you are stuck trying to figure out among the many ways there are, even when it's been explained over and over. So you tell me. Which of the man made notions of being saved is correct. You say it's the CoC. Ok. sounds good to me. Are you good with that?

No, I disagree with all these groups and their methods of salvation so I have removed myself from trying to straighten out their contradictions. As I said before if Christianity were truly made up of many organizations with contradicting beliefs I would not waste my time with it all and therefore not have anything to do with all the contradictions.

I have already given you my answer Bass. You know where I stand. I am saved. I know I am saved. I have complete and absolute solid confidence in what Christ has done. I do not question it. I am secure in my salvation. I did not save myself, nor did any church save me. Frankly I attend a church because I love God, not because I love the church. The church is a whore Bass. But she is my mother. So you tell me, which whore is the best? which one is the right path to salvation? Are you really wanting to place your salvation in the teachings of a church? If so, then pick any church you like. If you like the CoC fine. Christianity is about surrendering to a relationship with God. it's not found in any church. The church is just a body of believers, so in that sense the true church is made up of the body of true believers. Are you one? Because if you are then it does not matter what church you attend, because those people who go there need you to reflect Christ.

Others as you will say they are saved and know they are saved yet contradict you and me in what we think saves. So my point of this thread is we cannot all be right while contradicting each other even though we might all strongly think we are right and saved. As the saying goes, each will have to make their own bed and lie in it but an overwhelming majority will find on judgment day they got in the wrong bed. Again, you already agreed with me they cannot all be correct while contradicting each other. If you or others want to debate how one is saved that can be another thread all its own, this thread I would like to be to about proving all cannot be correct in their contradicting ways of salvation. There are many who think salvation can be found in all this contradicting mess whn its not possible at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who determines what issues matter and what issues do not matter?

The Bible...the whole context of the Bible, not parts of the Bible NOT rightly divided out from the whole.

Is obeying and doing as God said an important matter? YES for it is the difference between obedience/righteous/salvation and unrighteousness/sin/condemnation.

You're over simplifying things. You have a legalistic view of this. There are things that directly affect the matter of being saved or not. Then there are things that affect the quality of life of the believer within salvation. Then there are things that God simply has not given much, if any, guidance about, which don't affect salvation in any way shape or form--maybe the quality of one's Christian experience to some extent, or maybe not at all. As we grow up in our salvation we learn to discern which category various things belong in. Some non-essential things may even differ believer to believer. A big step in Christian maturity for me personally was learning to recognize this truth.

If I do not have to do as God said concerning music, then why would I have to do anything God said about other issues as salvation.

Because of what I just said. Not all things affect salvation.

You said in your other post you essentially said each denomination can determine how one is saved and not God.

No. That's not what I said, nor was I even suggesting that.

It's impossible to think any one group of 'Christians' is composed of only saved believers. There are false believers in every denomination. And, believe it or not, there are true believers in false denominations. There are believers who secretly don't believe everything their denomination teaches. What church you go to, or what denominational beliefs you most closely align yourself with DOES NOT IN AND OF ITSELF DETERMINE IF YOU ARE SAVED OR NOT.

For God never created the contradicting ways of salvation all these denominations go by.

Faith in the blood of Christ to remove sin guilt and replace it with God's righteousness is the ONLY thing that counts towards justification. What you want to argue is what are the expected and obligatory behaviors of justifying faith? Baptism? By submersion? Saturday worship? Short hair? Long hair? No hair (thank you very much)? Guitar music? Piano music? Voices only? Believing in predestination? Pre-trib/ post trib? The list goes on.

You see, most of the things the church likes to argue about are not matters that signify whether a person has saving faith in Christ or not. And we sure love to judge other people about whether they really have that faith or not. Especially when we are new in the faith. My journey down this road has led me to discern true salvation by the presence of the fruit of the Spirit, and not so much external things like worship. Which is really what Jesus meant when he said 'you will know them by their fruit'. I could say a lot about this, but if the church would learn that the fruit of the Spirit is the 'tell all' about those in the church false leaders and sheep would quickly be exposed for who and what they are. Instead, we mistakenly rely on charisma and doctrine to do that.

 

[reba]

Christ's church is not an ameba ..... Jesus says this
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


The Word says it like this
Act_16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

1Co_7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

 

[reba]

Technically, biblically there is no "choosing" churches since Christ establish one. There is no choice to be made among one option, either one is a member of that one church or not.

The reason I attend where I attend is they are diligently, honestly trying to go by what the bible says, nothing more or less. So when it comes to issues as IM, God said sing so we sing. It really is just that simple just doing as God said the best we can. We do not use IM just to stir up arguments with other people or to just stick out like a sore thumb we sing simply because that is what said and doing as God said is a matter of obedience/righteousness/salvation. I can go through the whole bible showing example after exmaple of God punishing people for not doing as He said, [Uzzah touching the ark, Moses hitting the rock instead of speaking to it] Why do people today think they are immune to God's punishment if they do not do as He says? The same God that punished them for not doing as He said certainly will punish us.

Of course those in other groups will say they are going by what the bible says, nothing more nothing less. But again they all cannot be going by what the bible says and contradict each other as much as they do. It will come down as who can prove what they believe is from the bible, some think they are proving what they believe is from the bible but they are not else they would all be in agreement with each other for the bible does not create contradictions.


EDIT some say some issues matters and others issues do not matter. As I see it, all issues God deals with matters. And i give issues as music the same respect, importance and study as I do with other bible issues as salvation.

Nothing more nothing less?

1Co_14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Ti_2:11 1Ti_2:12


Rom_16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1Co_16:20 2Co_13:12 1Th_5:26 1Pe_5:14

Jas_5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Above are a few of the direct commands, requests, suggestions from the Scripture. Are this followed with the same fervency as others? Nothing more nothing less , right? Are you a member of the church who follows the above Scriptures?