Contradicting Beliefs

[ezra]

Man made organizations with conflicting beliefs do not make up that one body.

would that include church of christ or just any body outside the circle? i mean baptist are not allowed to preach in the church of christ..or any other denom make me curious as per your by laws aND what they are found on.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Will you be one of the few allenwynne?

Matt 7:14 (NKJV)
14 “Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Oh, I know that I am one of the chosen few.
Thankfully, you're not the one making that decision.

 

[Mike]

For exmple, as I just posted in my last post that church Christ established taught and believed that in order for one to become a Christian he must believe, repent of sins, confess with the mouth and be water baptized for remission of sins, Jn 3:16 Lk 13:3,5 Rom 10:9,10 Acts 2:38

... and not use musical instruments during worship, right Ernest? You forgot that one! You gave your list of steps in repentance with verses to support them, but strangely, your list just stopped. Why didn't you add the ol' musical instruments clause found in the CoC handbook? Could it be because you'd have no verse to link it to salvation like you do the other criteria? Repent, confess, be baptized, oh and don't listen to musical instruments while in worship.

The CoC makes such monumental leaps of doctrine, and it is both hysterical and tragic that you say you strictly follow the Bible. The only reason I permit this thread to continue as you announce that only your denomination will be saved is because you CoC'ers are showing how absurd your thought process is and why NOT to get involved in the CoC. Through all your abuse of the Word and the Body of Christ, you are doing readers a service. If they didn't know about the CoC before, it is exposed now.
Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Science know where they will be challenged by biblical Christians, and they spend an enormous amount of time rehearsing their answers. They have them down, verses are taken out of context but they are memorized, and these canned responses are systematically churned out in defense of accusations that they are cults. Ernest, rrowell, you've practiced and rehearsed your lines well. That's all I can say. Thank you for exposing your denomination's errors.

CoC is a denomination.
CoC is just one denomination with no special connection to the Lord.
You don't adhere to the Bible. You adhere to the CoC.
And, yes, you believe one must be a member of your denomination (CoC) to escape hell.


,

 

[Vanguard]

For exmple, as I just posted in my last post that church Christ established taught and believed that in order for one to become a Christian he must believe, repent of sins, confess with the mouth and be water baptized for remission of sins, Jn 3:16 Lk 13:3,5 Rom 10:9,10 Acts 2:38

The first century church did not have a Pope, nor teach such things as eternal security, original sin, total depravity or faith only. This would eliminate large numbers of organizations as being that church Christ established.

Allow me to step in here...

If you ever study hermeneutics, you'll find that what you think you know isn't always so. There are multiple ways of interpreting verses, while keeping them in context.

Acts 2:38 No where does it way you have to be baptized "in water." That is an assumption. The literal translation is to be baptized in the name of Jesus, i.e. accept Him as your savior.

Repenting of sins does not necessarily mean to a priest or clergyman. This can be done to God through prayer, all by yourself. Confessing falls under repentance, as they are normally included within the same prayer.

Also, Catholics would disagree with you on whether the 1st century church had a pope. Peter, who was called the Bishop of Rome, is widely viewed as the first pope, and the papal lineage can be traced back to him without skipping a beat. No, I am not Catholic.

Furthermore, the CoC is a breakaway movement from the Presbyterian denomination, based off Scottish heritage. As with many other "movements," they can trace their start to someone not liking/agreeing with their current denomination/religion and start a separation from it. The CoC also relies heavily on the NT and "disregards" the OT as law for Christians. I actually agree with that part seeing how the NT is the new covenant through Jesus, who gave us 2 commandments: love God, love your neighbor.

1. Judaism was first.
2. Christianity, in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, broke away from it at the start of the CE.
3. The Protestant Reformation caused the break away from the Roman Catholic Church, and gave rise to the Church of England, some ~1500 years after Jesus.
4. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians eventually separated from the Church of England and went their own ways.
5. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and others broke away from mainstream Protestant denominations hundreds of years later.
6. Non-denominationals broke away from whatever their "parent" denomination was, and happen to be the fastest growing and most popular churches at this time. They simply refer to themselves as Christian.


With the study of religion also comes the study of history.

 

[Webb]

Wrong on every line.

 

[ezra]

Wrong on every line.

then point out the wrongs to be honest the church of christ has been exposed

 

[stovebolts]

... and not use musical instruments during worship, right Ernest? You forgot that one! You gave your list of steps in repentance with verses to support them, but strangely, your list just stopped. Why didn't you add the ol' musical instruments clause found in the CoC handbook? Could it be because you'd have no verse to link it to salvation like you do the other criteria? Repent, confess, be baptized, oh and don't listen to musical instruments while in worship.

The CoC makes such monumental leaps of doctrine, and it is both hysterical and tragic that you say you strictly follow the Bible. The only reason I permit this thread to continue as you announce that only your denomination will be saved is because you CoC'ers are showing how absurd your thought process is and why NOT to get involved in the CoC. Through all your abuse of the Word and the Body of Christ, you are doing readers a service. If they didn't know about the CoC before, it is exposed now.
Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Science know where they will be challenged by biblical Christians, and they spend an enormous amount of time rehearsing their answers. They have them down, verses are taken out of context but they are memorized, and these canned responses are systematically churned out in defense of accusations that they are cults. Ernest, rrowell, you've practiced and rehearsed your lines well. That's all I can say. Thank you for exposing your denomination's errors.

CoC is a denomination.
CoC is just one denomination with no special connection to the Lord.
You don't adhere to the Bible. You adhere to the CoC.
And, yes, you believe one must be a member of your denomination (CoC) to escape hell.


,

Mike,
With all due respect, I would remind you that I also am a member of the Church of Christ.
With that, I would also ask that you not paint all members in the Church of Christ with the brush you are painting my Brothers in Christ. If they believe IM is a sin, then who are we to cause them to sin. For them it is a sin and it should be apparent that you will not change their mind. The best you can do is not bring a musical instrument into their house.

I would also mind you that because he and others hold to that doctrine makes them no less your Brothers and Sisters in Christ, as I am also you Brother in Christ, and I proudly call you, as well as them my Brother.

I realize that they shun my stance on IM, and may not even consider me their Brother... I am not really sure. But I am glad that I am part of something bigger than this issue, and for that I have been baptized into... and there is only one baptism, and on faith.. because their is only one Lord.

Grace and Peace.

 

[reba]

Thanks Stove, I needed that

 

[Mike]

Mike,
With all due respect, I would remind you that I also am a member of the Church of Christ.
With that, I would also ask that you not paint all members in the Church of Christ with the brush you are painting my Brothers in Christ. If they believe IM is a sin, then who are we to cause them to sin. For them it is a sin and it should be apparent that you will not change their mind. The best you can do is not bring a musical instrument into their house.

I would also mind you that because he and others hold to that doctrine makes them no less your Brothers and Sisters in Christ, as I am also you Brother in Christ, and I proudly call you, as well as them my Brother.

I realize that they shun my stance on IM, and may not even consider me their Brother... I am not really sure. But I am glad that I am part of something bigger than this issue, and for that I have been baptized into... and there is only one baptism, and on faith.. because their is only one Lord.

Grace and Peace.

Jeff, you know full well why this has reached the point it has. I wouldn't be nearly as upset as I am if a line hadn't been drawn in the sand by a misuse of His Word to say that everyone reading this forum will be going to hell if they employ musical instruments in worship. It's not a matter of them simply believing it's a sin. It's that they have somehow made it salvific.

No, this kind of discussion does not produce fruit. We just had a lengthy thread closed, and this one is very close as well.

 

[Vanguard]

I can't recall Moses, Jesus, Peter, Paul or anyone else at that time having an Ibanez 7 string custom guitar, ESP 5 string base, TAMA drumset, Roland keyboards, or any type of PA system. If they did, I am sure Jesus could put on an awesome concert!

However, if you want a biblical reference: Psalm 150:3-5 (ESV) Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!

Supported in the NT by: Luke 24:44 (ESV) Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Seems clear to me that we are to praise God through music, by whatever means available to us. The instruments may have evolved, but the praise remains the same!

Don't confuse doctrine and commandments with someone's disdain for something...such as music.

 

[reba]

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Thanks Vanguard....

 

[stovebolts]

Mike,
I am only asking that you not paint the entire Church of Christ with the brush your painting with as I and many others are also represent the Churches of Christ.

We all don't take the hard line in the sand as our Brother Earnest. Please judge each man accordingly.

 

[ezra]

might i suggest address the ones who miss represent the church of Christ . when a denomination out line by laws that say they are the true n.t church . there lies a problem, in fact some of the baptist- Pentecostals are just as guilty but to boldly say music instruments in worship services are sin, and suggest those out side the circle are doomed to hell is inexcusable. i will say this about any church organization that proclaim they hold the only truth . Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Galatians 6:1

 

[Mike]

Mike,
I am only asking that you not paint the entire Church of Christ with the brush your painting with as I and many others are also represent the Churches of Christ.

We all don't take the hard line in the sand as our Brother Earnest. Please judge each man accordingly.

Yes, you are spot on here. My apologies, Jeff.

Ezra has some good points, too.

 

[rrowell]

Mike,
I am only asking that you not paint the entire Church of Christ with the brush your painting with as I and many others are also represent the Churches of Christ.

We all don't take the hard line in the sand as our Brother Earnest. Please judge each man accordingly.

Revelation 3:15-16 (NKJV)
15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 “So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

 

[BornAgain]

Supported in the NT by: Luke 24:44 (ESV) Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.â€

Luke gives here a summary of what Jesus taught the disciples between his resurrection and ascension. The "and" here does not necessarily denote close connection, but only a general continuation of the account and a brief statement of what Jesus said. This might be at different times before his ascension, here is given the substance of his last conversation with his disciples.

It includes the commission. "All things must needs be fulfilled," (complete, done) which had been prophesied of Jesus, or what had been "written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms."

This includes all of the Old Testament, for here is mentioned the three divisions into which the Hebrews divided the Old Testament. "The law of Moses" included the first five books, or Pentateuch "The prophets" included the books of Joshua, Judges, First and Second Samuel, First and Second Kings, three of the major prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel), and the twelve minor prophets; "the psalms" included the poetical and all the other Old Testament books sometimes called "the scriptures." John 5:39.

This group contained, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, and First and Second Chronicles. When Jesus declared that all things must be fulfilled which were written of him, he included the entire Old Testament.

Colossians 2:14 (KJV)
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

Not a soul was ever saved by the law of Moses, because none ever kept it, save Jesus Christ who fulfilled it completely. Persons under the law of Moses were saved, but it was by and through Christ.

No man could be justified by the law, because all sinned and violated the law, and law condemns, and does not justify, or purge from sin. All Jews and Gentiles have sinned, or broken the law, so cannot be saved by law. The law was given to train and prepare men for the reception of Jesus Christ, the promised seed, in whom all nations of the earth should be blessed.

which was contrary to us. The Mosaic law condemned, but could not save, so it "was contrary to us."

and he hath taken it out of the way,—The Mosaic law, including the
commandments written on stones, 2 Cor 3:7 was taken out of the way, nailed to the cross, and is no longer in force as a law in any of its parts. In the new covenant many laws that were in the old covenant were re-enacted and are to be obeyed not because they were in the old, but because they are a part of the new.

nailing it to the cross—It was taken out of the way when Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross, which is saying that the obstacle to forgiveness which is in the law, in the justice of God of which the law is an embodiment, was removed by the death of Christ.

Paul could say: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." Rom 8:1. By the cross of Christ, Paul could truthfully affirm that "the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Gal 6:14.

 

[stovebolts]

Revelation 3:15-16 (NKJV)
15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 “So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

I could post a piece of scripture that was as insulting as the one you've posted toward me, but neither the scripture I'd post, nor the one you just posted would be within context, let alone accurate.

I do hope you have a good Lord's day this morning Brother.

 

[rrowell]

Allow me to step in here...

If you ever study hermeneutics, you'll find that what you think you know isn't always so. There are multiple ways of interpreting verses, while keeping them in context.

Acts 2:38 No where does it way you have to be baptized "in water." That is an assumption. The literal translation is to be baptized in the name of Jesus, i.e. accept Him as your savior.

It says "baptized" meaning to submerge:

Baptism, Baptist, Baptize (Vine NT)
<A-1,Noun,908,baptisma>
"baptism," consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and emergence (from bapto, "to dip")

You cannot be submerged "in the name of Jesus", "in the name of Jesus" means by his authorization, or in a way he approves, the believers in Acts 2:38 were not baptized by Jesus like the Apostles were "with" the Holy Spirit, and they were not Baptized "with" Fire, so they had to have been baptized "with" water.

Repenting of sins does not necessarily mean to a priest or clergyman. This can be done to God through prayer, all by yourself. Confessing falls under repentance, as they are normally included within the same prayer.

Your absolutely correct, "Repenting" is not "confession", repenting is turning away from your sinful ways and not looking back... however your mixing the "confessing" talked about in Romans 10:10 with the catholic confession to a priest which is not the same thing...

We must confess Christ

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If we don't he will not confess us before the Father:

Matthew 10:32-33 (KJV)
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[rrowell]

Allow me to step in here...

Also, Catholics would disagree with you on whether the 1st century church had a pope. Peter, who was called the Bishop of Rome, is widely viewed as the first pope, and the papal lineage can be traced back to him without skipping a beat. No, I am not Catholic.

Peter being a "Bishop of Rome from A.D 43 to A.D. 68" is an assumption made by the catholic that cannot be proven, in fact it cannot be proven that Peter ever saw Rome much less that he spent 25 years there as they claim.

In the year A.D. 44 Peter was imprisoned by Herod. Josephus fixed this date as the year in which Herod died, and an account of his passing is recorded in the same chapter that tells of Peter's imprisonment. (Acts 12) So Peter could not have been in Rome at that time.

Moreover, the epistle to the Romans was written about A.D. 58. In the last chapter of this letter Paul sends greetings to 27 persons, yet did not mention Peter. Is this not singular if Peter was "vicar of Christ and prince of the apostles"?

Imagine a devout Catholic addressing a letter to high ranking dignitaries of the church in Rome today and ignoring the "Holy Father."

As the end drew near for Paul he penned a farewell message in Timothy and said "Only Luke is with me." (2 Timothy 4:11). Be it remembered that this was said in the loneliness of prison in the city where Peter is supposed to have been bishop. Had the "prince of the apostles" abandoned Paul to his fate?

 

[WIP]

I would respectfully submit that it would be good for us to cool things down a little. Are we here to discuss the denomination called the church of christ or the Church of Christ? An open mind to the scripture would seem to be in order. Let's not let this get further out of hand, please.