Contradicting Beliefs

[Vanguard]

One of the main things that will always keep divisions in the Church are those persons, churches and denominations which claim to alone have the truth, to alone be the "true Church," and condemn the rest of Christ's followers to hell. It's root is pride.

Here, here!

Ever wonder why NON-DENOMINATIONAL churches are the fastest growing, most popular churches in the USA? People are sick of the crap that "mainstream churches/denominations" keep spouting out. People just want an open place to worship.

 

[Mike]

I must say you do not surprise me by bringing up this text...and taking it out of context. The context has to do with matters of OPINION and not matters of doctrine/Christ's law. The context has to do with eating meat that has been offered to idols. Paul and others with strong a faith understood idols are nothing so it did not matter about eating food that had been offered to idols for Paul said "every creature of God is" good for food 1 tim 4:1-5. Yet weaker members with weaker a faith may not desire to eat meat offered to idols for to their conscience it would be wrong. Since it does not matter if one eats or does not eat meat offered to idols, the stronger members should not look down upon or judge a weaker members but help those weaker in faith and not cause them to violate their conscience over a non-essential matter of opinion. On the other hand, doctrine/law of Christ is essential and a weak faith does not allow one to violate matters of Christ's laws. Christ's law is permanent and does not change over the weak faith some may have for their faith must change to conform to Christ's laws.

Ernest, you disappoint me.

There's one way of doing everything, Ernest. You agreed to that. There's one way, and every other way is the road to hell, Ernest. Don't get all wishy washy on me now! You've dug your heals in so deeply! I believe in you, Ernest! One day can't be holy for one person and not the other, because one of those days will send the person to hell, Ernest! One food is God's food, and if someone eats the other food, they're going to hell, Ernest! Don't let them off the hook so easily! Hell, Ernest! Hell! If one person listens to musical instruments because in their opinion it sounds better, for crying out loud, Ernest, they're going to hell! They don't have a choice, even though it says no where not to use them. They are going to hell!

Tongue planted firmly in cheek.

Seriously, Ernest, you are directly disregarding the Words of the Lord in order to support your stance. You are forgetting your first love, Ernest T. Bass.

 

[Free]

Here, here!

Ever wonder why NON-DENOMINATIONAL churches are the fastest growing, most popular churches in the USA? People are sick of the crap that "mainstream churches/denominations" keep spouting out. People just want an open place to worship.

Although I can understand the appeal, there are a couple of major problems with "non-denominational" churches. One is that they become denominations unto themselves, further fractioning the Church. But the worst of it is that they are then accountable to no one for what they teach.

 

[rrowell]

Many Christians do "respect God's word as they ought," yet there is still disagreement. Your presumption that men don't respect the Bible as they ought is quite judgemental. I'm curious as to how you can know the hearts of so many?


Not at all. Those things are, or at least were, very much a part of bringing unity. One of the main things that will always keep divisions in the Church are those persons, churches and denominations which claim to alone have the truth, to alone be the "true Church," and condemn the rest of Christ's followers to hell. It's root is pride.

Christ gave us His doctrine and we are to stay in it and it only:

2 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

So why do some follow man made doctrine when the Lord out right rejects it, yet you and others claim it holds you together, but you know what Free? it does, it holds your denominations outside of the body of Christ...

Here, here!

Ever wonder why NON-DENOMINATIONAL churches are the fastest growing, most popular churches in the USA? People are sick of the crap that "mainstream churches/denominations" keep spouting out. People just want an open place to worship.

Actually it is the denominational churches that grow in leaps and bounds, look at the Catholic Denomination, largest in the world, yet the Bible says the minority will make it:

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Vanguard]

Although I can understand the appeal, there are a couple of major problems with "non-denominational" churches. One is that they become denominations unto themselves, further fractioning the Church. But the worst of it is that they are then accountable to no one for what they teach.

Oh I agree 100%. That doesn't change the fact that people are flocking to them.

Far too many non-doms have pastors who have absolutely no seminary training, no degree in theology/divinity, and started their own church because clergymen enjoy the luxury of no income tax. I visited one not too long ago, and when I started asking questions about hermeneutics, historical Judaism, etc. they looked at me like I was speaking Greek. It was obvious that they had no clue what I was talking about. I never went back.

The church I like has a senior pastor and 2 assoc. pastors, all with a PhD in theology/divinity and are very open minded. They left the Southern Baptist Conference of churches, but for the most part their non-dom is a Baptist church. I still fact check those guys, and thus far they have been spot on.

 

[Free]

Christ gave us His doctrine and we are to stay in it and it only:

2 John 1:9 (KJV)
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

So why do some follow man made doctrine when the Lord out right rejects it, yet you and others claim it holds you together, but you know what Free? it does, it holds your denominations outside of the body of Christ...

The problem is, you are presuming that your doctrines, or rather, the doctrines of the Church of Christ are correct and not man-made. But there is absolutely no reason for believing that to be the case.

As I stated to Ernest: it is our understanding of [Scripture] that causes the contradictions, understandings which are based on a variety of reasons. You nor the Church of Christ, nor any other person or denomination or church, are above the biases and difficulties involved in understanding Scripture.

 

[ezra]

If I thought Baptists taught scriptural salvation I would be a Baptist but of course I see they have it wrong so I am not a Baptist.

let me explain what baptist believe in salvation just like most other denoms.. 1. jesus way truth life no man comes to the father but by him. 2 . Ephesians 2:8-10 saved by grace through faith.. 3. must be born again john chapter 3 4. romans 10:9-10 --who sover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ..so if the Baptist as you say have the plan of salvation wrong .. Show me the error ..... i might add most all denoms hold to these scriptures .. your biggest problem is your indoctrinated . so you show me through scripture where they are wrong.... let me add i belong to a gen baptist church ordained gen baptist minister.... but i serve the same jesus the church of GOD the Pentecostals --Methodist do. in fact i have many ministers friends who are not baptist. so present your scriptures.but might i add water baptism is not how we get saved....

 

[Vanguard]

The problem is, you are presuming that your doctrines, or rather, the doctrines of the Church of Christ are correct and not man-made. But there is absolutely no reason for believing that to be the case.

As I stated to Ernest: it is our understanding of [Scripture] that causes the contradictions, understandings which are based on a variety of reasons. You nor the Church of Christ, nor any other person or denomination or church, are above the biases and difficulties involved in understanding Scripture.

Thus why Biblical Hermeneutics is such a great course to take on your way to a MA/PhD in theology/divinity. Your (by that, your denomination's) way of interpretation is but one of many ways. Who is right or wrong has been argued for over 2,000 years...and is still being argued with no clear answer in sight.

 

[reba]

God sure gave us a neat book.....

 

[Free]

Thus why Biblical Hermeneutics is such a great course to take on your way to a MA/PhD in theology/divinity. Your (by that, your denomination's) way of interpretation is but one of many ways. Who is right or wrong has been argued for over 2,000 years...and is still being argued with no clear answer in sight.

Very much agree, to a point anyway. There are some things which are at least generally agreed upon, and need to be agreed upon, but much of what separates denominations are either disagreements over non-essential doctrines, or making those things essential which are not.

 

[rrowell]

The problem is, you are presuming that your doctrines, or rather, the doctrines of the Church of Christ are correct and not man-made. But there is absolutely no reason for believing that to be the case.

This presumption is based on the fact that no other doctrine, creed or government other than the Bible are used by the CoC, so unlike other churches we use only the doctrine of Christ, others do not so there lay your contradictions.

As I stated to Ernest: it is our understanding of [Scripture] that causes the contradictions, understandings which are based on a variety of reasons. You nor the Church of Christ, nor any other person or denomination or church, are above the biases and difficulties involved in understanding Scripture.

That is true for some small issues, however not so for issues that pertain to salvation, Ill use Ernest and myself as example, I don't even know the man, don't know where he congregates, never communicated with him what so ever other than this forum, yet it appears we understand the scriptures without contradiction, and appear to be saying the same things pertaining to salvation and you know why? because we use the same doctrine, the doctrine of Christ... if all churches used the same doctrine of Christ there too would be no contradictions...

Contradiction festers from man serving his own belly:

Romans 16:18 (KJV)
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

 

[ezra]

This presumption is based on the fact that no other doctrine, creed or government other than the Bible are used by the CoC, so unlike other churches we use only the doctrine of Christ, others do not so there lay your contradictions.



That is true for some small issues, however not so for issues that pertain to salvation, Ill use Ernest and myself as example, I don't even know the man, don't know where he congregates, never communicated with him what so ever other than this forum, yet it appears we understand the scriptures without contradiction, and appear to be saying the same things pertaining to salvation and you know why? because we use the same doctrine, the doctrine of Christ... if all churches used the same doctrine of Christ there too would be no contradictions...

Contradiction festers from man serving his own belly:

Romans 16:18 (KJV)
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

i notice you keep Romans 16:18 as your signature ,,,since you claim to use Christ teaching only.. do you reject the apostle paul teaching? i read all the bible not parts.

 

[rrowell]

i notice you keep Romans 16:18 as your signature ,,,since you claim to use Christ teaching only.. do you reject the apostle paul teaching? i read all the bible not parts.

1: I don't have a signature at the moment,
2: Romans 16:18 is penned by Paul,
3: Paul teaches the doctrine of Christ.

So I guess I don't see your point? I read the whole Bible, not parts, however I follow the NT, use the OT as a schoolmaster Gal. 3:24-25.

 

[BornAgain]

Many Christians do "respect God's word as they ought," yet there is still disagreement. Your presumption that men don't respect the Bible as they ought is quite judgemental. I'm curious as to how you can know the hearts of so many?


Not at all. Those things are, or at least were, very much a part of bringing unity. One of the main things that will always keep divisions in the Church are those persons, churches and denominations which claim to alone have the truth, to alone be the "true Church," and condemn the rest of Christ's followers to hell. It's root is pride.

How do you figure? If they respected God's Word there would not be disagreement as they would obey just as Jesus obeyed His Father. The quote I posted was Jesus praying to His Father for unity for the entire world. Did Jesus establish plurality with different churches and establish different faiths and beliefs? No. He knew how to pray and also obeyed His Father. In the first century church there was more unity than there is today. I don't recall reading in the bible anything about any other denominations or organizations except for Christ's Church.

We are taught by Paul to be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgment and that division is a mark of carnality. Eph 4:1-3, 1 Cor 3:1-3, 1 Cor 1:10.

He made the gospels easy to understand and it is man who twists and divides because of their own ideas of how they want things to be. I do not condemn, God will do that because He made it very clear in the bible how we are to be saved. I do not recall reading anything that says, join the church of your choice, worship any way you want to, call your church after any man you want, etc.

To say that the non-denominational churches are getting bigger is one of the most false statements I have read and there have been plenty here. The Catholic's are the largest, government run religions in the world. I know, I was one. I never had so many rules and rituals to follow in my life. God made is simple, man complicated and divided Christ's Church because they could not follow the simple Truth.

 

[BornAgain]

Oh I agree 100%. That doesn't change the fact that people are flocking to them.

Far too many non-doms have pastors who have absolutely no seminary training, no degree in theology/divinity, and started their own church because clergymen enjoy the luxury of no income tax. I visited one not too long ago, and when I started asking questions about hermeneutics, historical Judaism, etc. they looked at me like I was speaking Greek. It was obvious that they had no clue what I was talking about. I never went back.

The church I like has a senior pastor and 2 assoc. pastors, all with a PhD in theology/divinity and are very open minded. They left the Southern Baptist Conference of churches, but for the most part their non-dom is a Baptist church. I still fact check those guys, and thus far they have been spot on.

Why do you need degrees to preach the gospel? There is the problem right there....man's ego and pride in knowledge think they got it all figured out. I do not have a college education to read and study the bible. God did not make it hard for us to read. He wanted ALL of us to know.

 

[ezra]

1: I don't have a signature at the moment,
2: Romans 16:18 is penned by Paul,
3: Paul teaches the doctrine of Christ.

So I guess I don't see your point? I read the whole Bible, not parts, however I follow the NT, use the OT as a schoolmaster Gal. 3:24-25.

{That is true for some small issues, however not so for issues that pertain to salvation, Ill use Ernest and myself as example, I don't even know the man, don't know where he congregates, never communicated with him what so ever other than this forum, yet it appears we understand the scriptures without contradiction, and appear to be saying the same things pertaining to salvation and you know why? because we use the same doctrine, the doctrine of Christ... if all churches used the same doctrine of Christ there too would be no contradictions...

Contradiction festers from man serving his own belly:

Romans 16:18 (KJV)
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.} it looked like that was your sig.. my mistake... but back to the point of your claim... what makes you think churches out side THE C O C does not use Christ teaching?

however I follow the NT, use the OT as a schoolmaster Gal. 3:24-25.

and so do i and others as well....... is our doctrine wrong??????? maybe you can use scripture to point out the wrong........

 

[rrowell]

what makes you think churches out side THE C O C does not use Christ teaching? and so do i and others as well....... maybe you can use scripture to point out the wrong........

You answered your own question, you said and I quote : "is our doctrine wrong???????", compare with what our Lord said about doctrine of men:

Matthew 15:9 (KJV)
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[ezra]

You answered your own question, you said and I quote : "is our doctrine wrong???????", compare with what our Lord said about doctrine of men:

Matthew 15:9 (KJV)
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

your tip toeing around the question ..what makes you think church of christ is not man made doctrine ? you show me scripture i have asked time after time in fact if not mistaken in the past 24-48 hours i have asked for scriptures to show where those out side the church of christ is wrong.... in fact you can not prove your point...... i have no problem with other denoms .. but when a person will say they are the only one who holds the truth. that does not sit well with me.

 

[rrowell]

your tip toeing around the question ..what makes you think church of christ is not man made doctrine ? you show me scripture i have asked time after time in fact if not mistaken in the past 24-48 hours i have asked for scriptures to show where those out side the church of christ is wrong.... in fact you can not prove your point...... i have no problem with other denoms .. but when a person will say they are the only one who holds the truth. that does not sit well with me.

How many times must one tell you the CoC has no doctrine other than the doctrine of Christ (His Word, The Bible ONLY), none of the following:

Liberty Association Articles of Faith (1824)
General Association Articles of Faith (1949)
General Association Articles of Faith (1870)
A Short Confession of Faith, in Twenty Articles​

Only the Bible...

I believe the CoC tries to follow the doctrine of Christ and only the doctrine of Christ, I believe those in the CoC that have obeyed the Gospel of Christ were added by Him to His one true Church (no voting, raise of hands etc...) it is the Lord who adds them to His Church...

 

[ezra]

How many times must one tell you the CoC has no doctrine other than the doctrine of Christ (His Word, The Bible ONLY), none of the following:

Liberty Association Articles of Faith (1824)
General Association Articles of Faith (1949)
General Association Articles of Faith (1870)
A Short Confession of Faith, in Twenty Articles​

Only the Bible...

I believe the CoC tries to follow the doctrine of Christ and only the doctrine of Christ, I believe those in the CoC that have obeyed the Gospel of Christ were added by Him to His one true Church (no voting, raise of hands etc...) it is the Lord who adds them to His Church...

lol i noticed you only answered part of the question with I believe sigh in some denoms your not joining the the body of christ as per salvation. your saying you want to be part of that local assembly .. in most cases church membership is used to help keep order and conduct business with in the local assembly. some use church boards ..some allow the deacons to run the church.... your confusing the 2 .. ok i read A Short Confession of Faith, in Twenty Articles. guess what i agree its all Bible in fact for the most it lines up with what the general baptist believe . i am attempting to get you to remove the religious eye glasses you wear. once again everyone else that i know hold the same truths. Church membership and salvation are separate joining a church or being baptized does not make any body a Christian...



this is general baptist Articles of Faith { you will note its all Bible}
Article 1 - We believe that the Inspired Scriptures are the Old and New Testaments, the infallible Word of God, and the only safe rule of faith and practice. 11 Tim.. 3:16-17; Heb. 1:1-2; 11 Peter 1:21; Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21; Isaiah 8:20; Titus 1:23 and Heb. 6:18.
Article 2 - We believe that there is but one living and true God, and in the Godhead or Divine Essence, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Godhead: Matt. 28:19'Heb. 9:14. God the Father: Eph. 4:6; 1 Cor. 8:6; Deut. 4:39; Matt. 6:9; 11:25; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9, and I Tim. 2:5. God the Son: Isaiah 9:6; John 1: 1,3,14; John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Col. 1: 17; 29; 1 Tim. 3:16; 11 Peter 1:21; Rom. 8: 1 1; I Cor. 12:4-6, and Peter 3:18.
Article 3 - We believe that we are fallen and depraved creatures, and cannot extricate ourselves from our fallen situation by any ability we possess by nature. Ps. 51:5; Rom. 3:10, 12; Eph. 2:3; Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 13:23, 17:9; John 6:44; Rom. 5:12,17,18; 6:23; 8:6-7; 1 Cor. 2:14; 15:21,22; Gal. 2:2 1; Jas. 5:5, and I Peter 1: 18.
Article 4 - We believe that Salvation, Regeneration, Sanctification, Justification, and Redemption are by the Life, Death, Resurrection, Ascension, and Intercession of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Salvation: Heb. 5:9; Acts 4:12; Titus 1:4, and I John 4:14. Regeneration: Titus 34:5; John 3:3-4, and I Peter 1:23. Sanctification: Heb. 10:10,29; 1 Cor. 1:2, and 6:1 1. Justification: I Cor. 6:1 1; Rom. 5:9. and Rom. 3:24. Redemption: Gal. 3:13; Heb. 9:12; Col 1: 14, and Rev. 5-9. Life and Death: Rom. 5: 10; John 1:4; Heb. 9:15; John 10: I 1, 15, and I John 3:16. Resurrection: Rom. 4:25; 1 Peter 1: 3. Ascension: Eph. 4:8; Heb. 4:14. Intercession: Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25, and Isa. 53:12.
Article 5 - We believe that God has adequately provided for man's eternal salvation, but that the free moral agency of man is unimpaired by these improvisions of grace so that it is possible for the child of God to turn away and be finally lost. Heb. 5:9; Matt. 10:22; 11 Peter 2:20; Ezek. 18:24; Ex. 32:33; 1 Chron. 28:9; Ezek. 18:26; 33:12-13,18; John 15:2,6; Rom. 11:20-22; 1 Cor. 9:25-27; 15:1-2; Col. 1:22-23; 1 Tim. 4:16; Heb. 3:12-15; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, 35-39; 12:14-17; James 5:19-20; Rev. 2: 10-1 1, and 3:3-5.
Article 6 - We believe that the joys of the righteous and the punishment of the wicked shall be eternal. Matt. 25:46; John 5:28-29; Dan. 12:2; Matt. 25:32-46; Mk. 9:43-44; Rom. 6:23; 11 Thess. 1:8-10, and Jude 7.
Article 7 - We believe that Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and the washing of saints' feet are the Ordinance of Jesus Christ appointed in the church and that none but true believers are proper subjects, and the only true mode of Baptism is immersion. Baptism: Mat. 28:19; Acts 2:38, and Acts 2:41. Believers'Baptism: Acts 8:37; 1 Cor. 1:2; Acts 2:41, and Acts 2:47. Communion: Matt. 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:19-20, and I Cor. 11:23-29. Washing of feet: St. John 13:14-17; 1 Tim. 5: 10, and I Peter 2:21.
Article 8 - We believe in the sanctity of the first day of the week, or Lord's Day, and that it ought to be observed in public or private worship of God, and that on it we should abstain from our worldly concerns, except in cases of necessity or mercy. John 20:19; Acts 20:7; Mark 2:27-28; Ex. 20:8; Isaiah 58:13-14; John 20:26; 1 Cor. 16:2, and Rev. 1:10
Article 9 - We believe in the resurrection of the body, both of the just and the unjust, but every man in his own order - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation; and that God hath appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by Jesus Christ. Acts 24:15; 1 Cor. 15:16-17; I Cor. 15:21; 1 Cor. 15:38; Matt. 25:32-34,41; John 5:28-29; Acts 10:42; 17:3 1; I Cor. 15:23.
Article 10 - We believe that it is a duty to be tender and affectionate one to another,
and to study the happiness of the people of God in general, and to be singly engaged to
promote the honor and glory of God. Gal. 6:10; 1 Peter 2:17; Rom.12:10; II Peter 1:7; John 7:18; 1 Cor. 2:2, and Thess. 3:12.
Article 11 - We believe that Jesus Christ tasted death for every man, and that none can partake of this divine benefits except by repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ; infants and idiots excepted, they being in the covenant of God's grace. Heb. 2:9; Luke 13:5; Heb. 11:6; Rom. 5:13; Mk. 16:16; John 3:16,18,36; 12:32; Acts 3:19; 17:30; 11 Cor. 5:15; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb. 4:2, and I John 2:2.
Article 12 - We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the door into the church, and that
baptism is a duty in answer to a good conscience. John 10:9: 1 Peter 3:21, and Heb.
10:20.
Article 13 - We believe that the Lord's people are one in Him, therefore they should be one at His table. Matt. 26: 27-28; 1 Cor. 12:13-14; John 17:20-21, and Gal. 3:28.

i am not promoting G.B doctrine. as there are others besides baptist that are members of the Body of Christ . my question to you...is other Church denominations recognized as being part of the Body of Christ--- redeemed blood bought born again children of God. by you or church of Christ? YES or NO sorry to burst your Bible but church of christ has a doctrine --Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. The Greek analogue is the etymology of catechism.[ :shocked! so much for that theory of c o c no doctrine