Contradicting Beliefs

[Danus]

Grace, Love, Mercy and Peace. Those connected to Christ understand this and it's all they need.

How does one get connected to Christ to begin with? Ask that question on this forum and you will get varying, contradicting answers but yet God's truth Jn 17:17 does not contradict itself so all those answers you get cannot be of God's truth/ God's word.

Who cares? Who the heck cares how you get connected to Christ, because as you have pointed out there are many answers and none one is the right one.

What matters is Grace. When we criticize the path of others we are not showing grace. When we reject others for what we see as their failings, we do not understand Love. When we hold our path as the one and only true way, we fail to see the Mercy we ourselves need, and when we bicker over the point of misunderstanding, or insecurity in our own faith, we've no Peace.

One thing I do know, is that I can clearly recognize Love, Grave, Mercy and Peace. I, and I think most people, can instantly know these things when they see or experience them. I know too that these are the things only God offers. I have seen them reflected by his people, true, but I have felt them from Him more. I do not need a formula for these things. I know the source of them. It's free.

 

[reba]

Beautifully said Danus

 

[rrowell]

Who cares? Who the heck cares how you get connected to Christ, because as you have pointed out there are many answers and none one is the right one.

I care, because if I am wrong, I want to be corrected, so how does one in your mind get "connected to Christ" (Scripture, not opinion)?

 

[Grazer]

I care, because if I am wrong, I want to be corrected, so how does one in your mind get "connected to Christ" (Scripture, not opinion)?

Romans 10:9 NIV

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[rrowell]

Romans 10:9 NIV

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

And what makes that verse trump this verse? another contradicting belief:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

would that include church of christ or just any body outside the circle? i mean baptist are not allowed to preach in the church of christ..or any other denom make me curious as per your by laws aND what they are found on.

Christ founded, established His own church with His own laws so it is not man-made with man made laws.

 

[reba]

Romans 10:9 NIV

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

His Word is simple and wonderful His grace and mercy we cant even fathom.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

... and not use musical instruments during worship, right Ernest? You forgot that one! You gave your list of steps in repentance with verses to support them, but strangely, your list just stopped. Why didn't you add the ol' musical instruments clause found in the CoC handbook? Could it be because you'd have no verse to link it to salvation like you do the other criteria? Repent, confess, be baptized, oh and don't listen to musical instruments while in worship.

The CoC makes such monumental leaps of doctrine, and it is both hysterical and tragic that you say you strictly follow the Bible. The only reason I permit this thread to continue as you announce that only your denomination will be saved is because you CoC'ers are showing how absurd your thought process is and why NOT to get involved in the CoC. Through all your abuse of the Word and the Body of Christ, you are doing readers a service. If they didn't know about the CoC before, it is exposed now.

Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and Christian Science know where they will be challenged by biblical Christians, and they spend an enormous amount of time rehearsing their answers. They have them down, verses are taken out of context but they are memorized, and these canned responses are systematically churned out in defense of accusations that they are cults. Ernest, rrowell, you've practiced and rehearsed your lines well. That's all I can say. Thank you for exposing your denomination's errors.

CoC is a denomination.
CoC is just one denomination with no special connection to the Lord.
You don't adhere to the Bible. You adhere to the CoC.
And, yes, you believe one must be a member of your denomination (CoC) to escape hell.


,

Yes, from the bible one can read that Christ's church taught one must beleive, repent, confess and be baptized to become a Christian. One can also see from the bible Christ's church did not use IM.


Thomas Aquinas, Catholic Theologian; 13th century: "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 2, p.483, London

John Calvin, Reformation Leader, Founder of Reformed & Presbyterian denominations: "Musical Instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. " Calvin, Commentary on Psalm 33, see also commentary on 1 Samuel 18:1-9​

John Wesley, Founder of Methodist Denomination: "I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen." Cited by Methodist commentator Adam Clarke; Clarke's Commentary, Vol. 4, p.684​

Catholic Encyclopedia: "Although Josephus tells of the wonderful effects produced in the Temple by the use of instruments, the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice. Clement of Alexandria severely condemns the use of instruments even at Christian banquets." Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, p. 652​

Martin Luther, Reformation Leader: "The organ in the worship service is a sign of Baal." Realencyklopadie Fur Protestantische Theologie und Kirche, Bd, 14, s.433 cited in Instrumental Music and New Testament Worship, James D. Bales, p. 130.​

Charles Spurgeon, Baptist Author/Pastor: "We might as well pray by machinery as sing by it" and "Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes... we do not need them. That would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto Him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice." Charles Spurgeon, Commentary on Psalm 42​

Even though I disagree with these men on other issues they could at least get it right when it came to the issue of IMs.​

Mt 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."​

Christ built His own church so it is not a man-man denomination.​

 

[reba]

Col_3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Tons of good teaching in those psalms !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Allow me to step in here...

If you ever study hermeneutics, you'll find that what you think you know isn't always so. There are multiple ways of interpreting verses, while keeping them in context.

Acts 2:38 No where does it way you have to be baptized "in water." That is an assumption. The literal translation is to be baptized in the name of Jesus, i.e. accept Him as your savior.

Repenting of sins does not necessarily mean to a priest or clergyman. This can be done to God through prayer, all by yourself. Confessing falls under repentance, as they are normally included within the same prayer.

Also, Catholics would disagree with you on whether the 1st century church had a pope. Peter, who was called the Bishop of Rome, is widely viewed as the first pope, and the papal lineage can be traced back to him without skipping a beat. No, I am not Catholic.

Furthermore, the CoC is a breakaway movement from the Presbyterian denomination, based off Scottish heritage. As with many other "movements," they can trace their start to someone not liking/agreeing with their current denomination/religion and start a separation from it. The CoC also relies heavily on the NT and "disregards" the OT as law for Christians. I actually agree with that part seeing how the NT is the new covenant through Jesus, who gave us 2 commandments: love God, love your neighbor.

1. Judaism was first.
2. Christianity, in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, broke away from it at the start of the CE.
3. The Protestant Reformation caused the break away from the Roman Catholic Church, and gave rise to the Church of England, some ~1500 years after Jesus.
4. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians eventually separated from the Church of England and went their own ways.
5. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and others broke away from mainstream Protestant denominations hundreds of years later.
6. Non-denominationals broke away from whatever their "parent" denomination was, and happen to be the fastest growing and most popular churches at this time. They simply refer to themselves as Christian.


With the study of religion also comes the study of history.

I disagree for the following reasons:

1)
as far as hermeneutics, "F.F. Bruce says: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106)." There is nothing in the context of Acts 2:38 that shows baptzo is being used anyway other than a literal immersion in water.

2)
Acts 2:38 is the carrying out of Christ's great commission found in Mt 28:19,20 Mk 16:15,16 and Lk 24:47. In this commission disciples (humans) were instructed to adminisiter baptism and the only baptism humans could administer is water baptism. See the example of the eunuch Acts 8 of the commission being carried out by Phillip.

There is nothing in the bible about a Pope. If Peter was a Catholic Pope he did not know it along with Jesus Paul and the other apostles did not know it.


Christ's church began at Pentecost at Acts 2. Catholocism and other groups broke away from it going after man made doctrines.

 

[Danus]

I care, because if I am wrong, I want to be corrected, so how does one in your mind get "connected to Christ" (Scripture, not opinion)?

In some ways I can follow your sentiment, but in many ways I can not. I get what your saying because I already know I am wrong in the site of His righteousness. I am not righteous. I am a sinner. The bible tells us this clearly, over and over again, but in so far as us being counted righteous in His sight, we are clearly told it is not by our doing, but His. I fully accept that. And I accept that because I know I am not righteous. What greater love could God possibly give? How hard is it to recognize that? Well, it could be very difficult to recognize if we do not understand that we are nothing without it.

I feel that many who seek God earnestly, often find themselves trying hard to live up to God's standard, never accepting that they can't. And I think that keeps many people from Him. This is not to say they are saved, or not saved. So, my answer to you is found in your own words; " ....if I am wrong, I want to be corrected."

There is no "if"; we are all wrong in the sight of God. I think we can not receive what is correct until we first give up trying to be right. When we do this, we are surrendering to God, and when we surrender to Him only then can we see and recognize what is true and right.

We are like stubborn children. We can do it, we say. We know, and like a father sometimes does; " OK, you do it then. I'll be right here if you need me." and when we realize we can not do it, we admit it, we surrender, does he punish us for not doing it right? No. He rejoices in our coming to Him, and He shows us the way. And we are in a better place because we have given up trying to do things ourselves and instead we are shown by Him; we are lead by Him, and we can then say; " Ah I see now; I see what you where trying to show me." And we realize how absolutely awesome and powerful He is, and how He loves us so much. Only then do we truly see and are able to truly follow, not because we have to, or even want to, but be cause we've no choice but to.

That is how I am connected to Christ, and that is how I've known others to be as well, but many have taken long journeys to realize the simplest of things. What is interesting to note, is that we have all this instruction and interpretation, tones of "religions", and advice on how to do everything right and good, yet no one ever does. No one is, and often people who claim to be the "most" connected to God seem to often spew anger, resentment and judgment on others they feel are not. Just look at Westboro Baptist church in the news these days. They HATE all sorts of people and they are here to tells us all that God hates them too. How do you know they aren't right? (that's a rhetorical question BTW)

So I go back to my answer. Grace, Love, Mercy and Peace. These are the things only God can offer and these are the things that those who are connected to God can know, recognize, and reflect. Is it because those people are full of Grace Love Mercy and Peace? No, it's because God is and they are able to reflect these things because they have surrendered to Him and he is allowed to abide and flow through them, and it's all they need. How they came to surrender does not matter.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I can't recall Moses, Jesus, Peter, Paul or anyone else at that time having an Ibanez 7 string custom guitar, ESP 5 string base, TAMA drumset, Roland keyboards, or any type of PA system. If they did, I am sure Jesus could put on an awesome concert!

However, if you want a biblical reference: Psalm 150:3-5 (ESV) Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!

Supported in the NT by: Luke 24:44 (ESV) Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Seems clear to me that we are to praise God through music, by whatever means available to us. The instruments may have evolved, but the praise remains the same!

Don't confuse doctrine and commandments with someone's disdain for something...such as music.

It's not a complicated issue. God said sing so I sing. Me doing other than what God said would be direct disobedience, i.e., SIN.

An issue I brought up many times no one will address is if I do not have to do what God says when it comes to music then why would I have to do anything God says at all?? If I can disobey God one this issue no reason to think i can disobey God on all other issues such as salvation issues, marriage, divorce issues, etc, etc. What is the point in even having a bible if people can do as they please when it comes to religion, worship, salvation?? It all proves my point religion has become humanistic where man thinks he will determine what is right and wrong and God has no say so in the issues.

I post this again but it will be ignored again.

 

[rrowell]

He loves us so much. Only then do we truly see and are able to truly follow, not because we have to, or even want to, but be cause we've no choice but to.

So then, who's fault was it that Judas is lost?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I would respectfully submit that it would be good for us to cool things down a little. Are we here to discuss the denomination called the church of christ or the Church of Christ? An open mind to the scripture would seem to be in order. Let's not let this get further out of hand, please.

I would like to reiterate this point: it does not matter to me if people do not think the church of which I am member is the one church that Christ established at Pentecost or not.. People will believe what they want to believe.

The point of this thread was to show that Christ did establish His church (not any man made denominations) and He established only ONE church, ONE body and ONE faith and Christ is the Saviour of that ONE body and not the Saviour of other bodies or organizations Mat 16:18 Eph 4:4-5. This point is not even arguable. Christ never established a multitude of churches with conflicting number of faiths.



This topic bothers people's conscience for they do not want to have to be forced into thinking that all the thousands of religious organizations cannot be that one church Christ established and will save........1000 does not equal 1. There is a reason why Jesus said broad is the way and wide is the gate that leads to destruction.

If the church of Christ is not that one church then I will be lost. If Baptists are not that one church they will be lost. If Catholics are not that one church they will be lost, if Pentecostals are not that one church they will be lost. It's naive and erroneous to think all religious groups with conflicting faths can be that one church with that one faith Christ established. As I said before, if Christianity were truly made up of thousands of oranizations with contradicting faiths/beliefs, then it is a contradictory, hypocrtical sham with no bases, no truth, no credibilty whatsoever. This is a sobering topic people will have to deal with at some point, better deal with it now when they can still do something rather than later when it will be too late.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

might i suggest address the ones who miss represent the church of Christ . when a denomination out line by laws that say they are the true n.t church . there lies a problem, in fact some of the baptist- Pentecostals are just as guilty but to boldly say music instruments in worship services are sin, and suggest those out side the circle are doomed to hell is inexcusable. i will say this about any church organization that proclaim they hold the only truth . Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Galatians 6:1

How many churches did Christ establish? How many faiths are there?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Who cares? Who the heck cares how you get connected to Christ, because as you have pointed out there are many answers and none one is the right one.

What matters is Grace. When we criticize the path of others we are not showing grace. When we reject others for what we see as their failings, we do not understand Love. When we hold our path as the one and only true way, we fail to see the Mercy we ourselves need, and when we bicker over the point of misunderstanding, or insecurity in our own faith, we've no Peace.

One thing I do know, is that I can clearly recognize Love, Grave, Mercy and Peace. I, and I think most people, can instantly know these things when they see or experience them. I know too that these are the things only God offers. I have seen them reflected by his people, true, but I have felt them from Him more. I do not need a formula for these things. I know the source of them. It's free.

Anyone concerned about their salvation should care. Salvation is not found among thousands of organizations with contradicting faiths.

You posted " When we hold our path as the one and only true way..."

Exactly how many ways are there to be saved?

 

[Danus]

As I said before, if Christianity were truly made up of thousands of oranizations with contradicting faiths/beliefs, then it is a contradictory, hypocrtical sham with no bases, no truth, no credibilty whatsoever. This is a sobering topic people will have to deal with at some point, better deal with it now when they can still do something rather than later when it will be too late.

I think your absolutely correct with this statement. If Christianity is as you say above, then it is as you say above, but if it isn't, then it is something else. But, if that something else is that only one of those religious organizations is the true one, then it is still what you say above; hypocritical sham with no bases, no truth, no credibility whatsoever. So......it has to be something else. What could that be for you?

 

[reba]

Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[Danus]

Anyone concerned about their salvation should care. Salvation is not found among thousands of organizations with contradicting faiths.

You posted " When we hold our path as the one and only true way..."

Exactly how many ways are there to be saved?

Your missing the point, but your missing it because you want to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Salvation is not found among thousands of organizations with contradicting faiths.

You will find saved people in and among ALL denominations. The sum total of those saved people is the Church of Jesus Christ. To think any one denomination represents the saved people of God is to not understand the kingdom of God. There is a day coming when the kingdom of God will be pure and only filled with the righteous.