Contradicting Beliefs

[Mike]

Ernest, is it your contention that there is God's way of doing things and every other way? I'll go on the assumption you say "yes". Dismiss this second question if your answer is "no".

Does this apply to everything for our lives? When we get down to it, is there one way (God's way) for everything we do in our lives?

 

[Grazer]

Ernest, is it your contention that there is God's way of doing things and every other way? I'll go on the assumption you say "yes". Dismiss this second question if your answer is "no".

Does this apply to everything for our lives? When we get down to it, is there one way (God's way) for everything we do in our lives?

Why does God have to only have one way?

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[Danus]

That's it. Baptist, Catholics, Pentecostals etc etc cannot all be right, cannot all be that ONE body holding that ONE faith. Some if not most do not want to think thios for they want to think all can be saved in their contradiction. My point is to show them they all cannot be right.



Yes, the bible says Christ establish His one body the church and is the Saviour of that one body and not any other bodies.
This is not a false delimma but a biblical fact. Eph 4:4-5.



I never said this. The bible says Christ saves but He saves only those in his ONE body. Nowhere does the bible say He saves those outside His one body.



No, I disagree with all these groups and their methods of salvation so I have removed myself from trying to straighten out their contradictions. As I said before if Christianity were truly made up of many organizations with contradicting beliefs I would not waste my time with it all and therefore not have anything to do with all the contradictions.



Others as you will say they are saved and know they are saved yet contradict you and me in what we think saves. So my point of this thread is we cannot all be right while contradicting each other even though we might all strongly think we are right and saved. As the saying goes, each will have to make their own bed and lie in it but an overwhelming majority will find on judgment day they got in the wrong bed. Again, you already agreed with me they cannot all be correct while contradicting each other. If you or others want to debate how one is saved that can be another thread all its own, this thread I would like to be to about proving all cannot be correct in their contradicting ways of salvation. There are many who think salvation can be found in all this contradicting mess whn its not possible at all.

You're still missing the point. You have expressed that a church holds the key to salvation through rituals and practices and ways and means, and one has to be correct. None of these things are right.

If you like the church of Christ, fine. But that church is not saving people; God is. Some people like a Methodist church, some Baptist, some Catholic. none of these denominations tell if anyone is saved or not.

People have different interpretations, different perspectives on different issues. Sure there are churches that teach contrary to the bible, but on most points it's a silly non-issue to salvation. In the end it's still Grace and Mercy that only God can truly offer. That's what sets Christianity from other religions and that's what determines who is saved and who is not. Realizing you need God's mercy to be saved because you are a sinner and receiving Hid Grace, through faith. When we think we are deserving of it because of the church we belong to, or the things we've done, that is not salvation, but anyone in any church, and any religion, can at any time receive the Grace and Mercy they need to be saved when they finally stop trying to be as righteous as God and just surrender to Him. It's that simple. Anyone. Anywhere, at any time. We need to stop this nonsense over which church is the true church. None of them are.

If you know you are saved, you know it. You may at times question your relationship with God, but you know you are saved. Do you know everything? No. Are you still a sinner? Yes, But a saved sinner. And a saved sinner is not a willful sinner. Do they screw up? Sure they do. God has a firm hold on the saved, the converted, those who have surrendered their lives, their will to His. It's that simple. When we are connected to God we can reflect what God has offered us. Grace, Mercy, Love, and Peace to this fallen world. That's the only way. It does not matter what you know of scripture for this to happen. It is what is in your heart, and the only means by which this is possible is the death of Christ (God) on the cross. That was done for this.

That's why it is the good news. When I became saved I was not in a church. I did not recant some magic prayer and have tap water over my head. I simply realized I was a sinner, I needed God. That's it. Saved. Done. That's my testimony. I've not been the same since.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The Bible...the whole context of the Bible, not parts of the Bible NOT rightly divided out from the whole.[/quote}

I am not familiar where the bible says worship as singing does not matter. No point in the bible gving instructions about singing as in Eph 5 or for the bible to say whatever you do, do all in the name of the lord, that is, do by the lord's authority if it did not really matter.

You're over simplifying things. You have a legalistic view of this. There are things that directly affect the matter of being saved or not. Then there are things that affect the quality of life of the believer within salvation. Then there are things that God simply has not given much, if any, guidance about, which don't affect salvation in any way shape or form--maybe the quality of one's Christian experience to some extent, or maybe not at all. As we grow up in our salvation we learn to discern which category various things belong in. Some non-essential things may even differ believer to believer. A big step in Christian maturity for me personally was learning to recognize this truth.

The "legalism" argument is a dead, bad argument. Nowhere did God ever condemn anyone for strickly following His laws, but He condemned many for not following his laws. The bible calls those that follow what God says righteous not legalists. If one did not have follow what God says abot music he would not have to follow what God says about anything meaning one cannot be a legalists about his beleif in faith only.

Because of what I just said. Not all things affect salvation.

Does obedience/righteousness or disobedience/unrighteousness to what God said affect salvation? Yes.

All I see so far is you are trying to determine for me and others what matters and does not matter...."And whatsoever ye do (includes worship as singing) in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus..." You are telling me it does not matter if it is in the name of the Lord Jesus. In the name of means by His authority and you are telling me somethings do not matter and do not need His authority.

No. That's not what I said, nor was I even suggesting that.

You did not say those exact words but that is what you implied.

Your exact words were "You will find saved people in and among ALL denominations."

It is a fact that denominations contradict each other in what they believe including contradicting each other as to how one is saved. So if people from ALL these various contradicting denominations are saved they are being saved in contradicting ways. And if all these denominations are supposedly going by the bible then that implies the bible contradicts itself as to how one is saved.

It's impossible to think any one group of 'Christians' is composed of only saved believers. There are false believers in every denomination. And, believe it or not, there are true believers in false denominations. There are believers who secretly don't believe everything their denomination teaches. What church you go to, or what denominational beliefs you most closely align yourself with DOES NOT IN AND OF ITSELF DETERMINE IF YOU ARE SAVED OR NOT.

there is no such thing as different groups of Christians with contradicting beleifs. The bible in facts condemns division and conflicting beliefs, Jesus prayed against such in the garden.

Faith in the blood of Christ to remove sin guilt and replace it with God's righteousness is the ONLY thing that counts towards justification. What you want to argue is what are the expected and obligatory behaviors of justifying faith? Baptism? By submersion? Saturday worship? Short hair? Long hair? No hair (thank you very much)? Guitar music? Piano music? Voices only? Believing in predestination? Pre-trib/ post trib? The list goes on.

You see, most of the things the church likes to argue about are not matters that signify whether a person has saving faith in Christ or not. And we sure love to judge other people about whether they really have that faith or not. Especially when we are new in the faith. My journey down this road has led me to discern true salvation by the presence of the fruit of the Spirit, and not so much external things like worship. Which is really what Jesus meant when he said 'you will know them by their fruit'. I could say a lot about this, but if the church would learn that the fruit of the Spirit is the 'tell all' about those in the church false leaders and sheep would quickly be exposed for who and what they are. Instead, we mistakenly rely on charisma and doctrine to do that.

All I am trying to point out in this thread is that various religious groups contradict each other as to how one is saved. And since they contradict each other and the bible doesnot then these gruoupsCANNOT all be right about salvation and therefore cannot all be Christians.

Does the bible contradict itself? no

Do these groups contradict each other? Yes

Therefore it isnot possible at all they are all going by the bible and therefore cannot all be saved. God's truth is not found in contradictions.

What is the point in me trying to explain to "joe" that a person is saved by "x" when "Joe" believes a person can be saved in many different ways. "Joe" is going to first have to realize there is just ONE way to be saved and salvation is not found in various contradicting ways. Once "Joe" is willing to face this reality then maybe 'Joe' will be willing to learn the one way the bible teaches.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Christ's church is not an ameba ..... Jesus says this
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


The Word says it like this
Act_16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

1Co_7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

Mt 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

My church singular not churhes plural. Nowhere does the bible say Jesus has many bodies with contradicting faiths but ONE body and ONE faith eph 4:4-5

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nothing more nothing less?

1Co_14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Ti_2:11 1Ti_2:12


Rom_16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

1Co_16:20 2Co_13:12 1Th_5:26 1Pe_5:14

Jas_5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Above are a few of the direct commands, requests, suggestions from the Scripture. Are this followed with the same fervency as others? Nothing more nothing less , right? Are you a member of the church who follows the above Scriptures?

we've been through this before. You are judging others based upon nothing more than your misinterpretations of these verses. Prove that silence means absolute silence. When you prove that (which you will not be able to) then explain the contradiction the bible creates when it commands women to sing yet be absolute silent at the same time. So it becomes clear you have a misunderstanding of the passages for the bible does not contract itself.......hmmmmmm.......................do you think the bible contradicts itself?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest, is it your contention that there is God's way of doing things and every other way? I'll go on the assumption you say "yes". Dismiss this second question if your answer is "no".

Does this apply to everything for our lives? When we get down to it, is there one way (God's way) for everything we do in our lives?

It's God's way or it's the wrong way.

For I am not familar where the bible says man dictates how worship (singing) is to be done or how man is to be saved. When left to man, man will do nothing but corrupt it creating a mess of confusions and contradictions, which if you look around that is what man has to be done. There is God's righteous, uncorrupt, uncontradicting standard to go by or mans' unrighteous corrupt contradicting ways. I choose to God by God's righteous, uncontradicting standard and reject all the contradictions of man.

Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus,..."

Do you believe this verse? If so then why would it not apply to singing or to how many is saved or to other bible issues?

Again I am not familiar where all this has been left up to man to determine.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Why does God have to only have one way?

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God is not the author of confusion. God has set the same standard for everyone and everyone will be judged by that same standard. God has no respect of persons.

 

[ezra]

That's it. Baptist, Catholics, Pentecostals etc etc cannot all be right, cannot all be that ONE body holding that ONE faith. Some if not most do not want to think thios for they want to think all can be saved in their contradiction. My point is to show them they all cannot be right.

Ernest T. Bass you made a point ..now i ask you does the Church of Christ have it right for salvation. there is only one way to be saved and that is through Jesus the name tag of the church including C O C holds no merit saved by grace through faith ..i await your answer

My church singular not churhes plural. Nowhere does the bible say Jesus has many bodies with contradicting faiths but ONE body and ONE faith eph 4:4-5

your right but in this Body is many members which make up his Church ..which is NOT church of Christ the denomination. your getting good about avoiding direct questions

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You're still missing the point. You have expressed that a church holds the key to salvation through rituals and practices and ways and means, and one has to be correct. None of these things are right.

God not the church dtermine how one is saved. Those in the church are the ones who did as God said concerning salvation and God therefore God added them to His church, Acts 2:47.

If you like the church of Christ, fine. But that church is not saving people; God is. Some people like a Methodist church, some Baptist, some Catholic. none of these denominations tell if anyone is saved or not.

Christ saves but who does He save? "and he is the saviour of the body" Eph 5:23. How many bodies does Christ have? ONE Eph 4:4-5. How does one get into that one body? By doing as God said concerning salvation and God will then add them to that one body. People can like whatever they want to like but liking will not get them saved.

Methodist, Baptist, Catholic....3 does not equal one. One of these gruops think faith alone saves another thinks works saves, complete polar opposites of each other. If Christians are found in both groups do you care to clear up the contradiction?

People have different interpretations, different perspectives on different issues. Sure there are churches that teach contrary to the bible, but on most points it's a silly non-issue to salvation. In the end it's still Grace and Mercy that only God can truly offer. That's what sets Christianity from other religions and that's what determines who is saved and who is not. Realizing you need God's mercy to be saved because you are a sinner and receiving Hid Grace, through faith. When we think we are deserving of it because of the church we belong to, or the things we've done, that is not salvation, but anyone in any church, and any religion, can at any time receive the Grace and Mercy they need to be saved when they finally stop trying to be as righteous as God and just surrender to Him. It's that simple. Anyone. Anywhere, at any time. We need to stop this nonsense over which church is the true church. None of them are.

I agree people have different interpretations but since there is one faith, one truth that does not contradict like people interpretatons contradict, that can only mean an overwhelming majority have a WRONG interpretation.

So does God's word, His truth detrmine how one is saved or does man's varying contradicting intepretations determine how one is saved.

Who determines what are non-issues to salvation? Who has been given that right and power to determine what parts of what God has said matters and does not matter?

"whatever you do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord" so all issues matter

You post "We need to stop this nonsense over which church is the true church. None of them are. "

If this were the case then NONE of them will be saved for Christ is the saviour of His one body and if no one is in that one body then no one is saved.

So do you deny there is one body? Do you deny Christ is the saviour of that one body?

If you know you are saved, you know it. You may at times question your relationship with God, but you know you are saved. Do you know everything? No. Are you still a sinner? Yes, But a saved sinner. And a saved sinner is not a willful sinner. Do they screw up? Sure they do. God has a firm hold on the saved, the converted, those who have surrendered their lives, their will to His. It's that simple. When we are connected to God we can reflect what God has offered us. Grace, Mercy, Love, and Peace to this fallen world. That's the only way. It does not matter what you know of scripture for this to happen. It is what is in your heart, and the only means by which this is possible is the death of Christ (God) on the cross. That was done for this.

That's why it is the good news. When I became saved I was not in a church. I did not recant some magic prayer and have tap water over my head. I simply realized I was a sinner, I needed God. That's it. Saved. Done. That's my testimony. I've not been the same since.

Again the issue in this thread is not abot "how" one becomes saved but can salvation be found among all these groups that have contradicting ways of being saved. Again I say NO for the bible does not teach contradicting ways to be saved but just one way so logically, lik it or not, all these groups are not going by how the bible says one is saved. People do not like to think this but it's the truth.

 

[Free]

Methodist, Baptist, Catholic....3 does not equal one. One of these gruops think faith alone saves another thinks works saves, complete polar opposites of each other. If Christians are found in both groups do you care to clear up the contradiction?

You post "We need to stop this nonsense over which church is the true church. None of them are. "

If this were the case then NONE of them will be saved for Christ is the saviour of His one body and if no one is in that one body then no one is saved.

So do you deny there is one body? Do you deny Christ is the saviour of that one body?

Again the issue in this thread is not abot "how" one becomes saved but can salvation be found among all these groups that have contradicting ways of being saved. Again I say NO for the bible does not teach contradicting ways to be saved but just one way so logically, lik it or not, all these groups are not going by how the bible says one is saved. People do not like to think this but it's the truth.

You have missed the larger issue--there is much disagreement even amongst those within the same church building, never mind within the same denomination. And this is most certainly the case within the Church of Christ.

It stands to reason then that the Church, the body of Christ, is made of all true believers, found in numerous denominations and church buildings around the world. As I have stated before, there is no one denomination, church, or person who has the whole truth. Not one.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass you made a point ..now i ask you does the Church of Christ have it right for salvation. there is only one way to be saved and that is through Jesus the name tag of the church including C O C holds no merit saved by grace through faith ..i await your answer

So do you really agree that it is not possible for all these groups to be scripturally right about salvation? You unsderstand the consequence of them being scripturally wrong about salvation?

Yes, I am member of the church of Christ for I see they are going by that one way of salvation the bible teaches. Obviously I would not be a member if I thought they were wrong.

If I thought Baptists taught scriptural salvation I would be a Baptist but of course I see they have it wrong so I am not a Baptist. But as you seem to agree all these groups cannot contradict each other and be right. If the church of Christ is wrong and not that one body Christ saves, then I will be lost. That's why I spend large amount of time studying, asking questions, debating on forums to make sure I am following that one true way to salvation. Why do I not believe in faith only? For I am convinced beyond any reasonable doubt faith only does not save. Those that do believe in faith only are convinced otherwise. One of us will be lost and the other saved for both polar opposite positions cannot be true at the same time.

your right but in this Body is many members which make up his Church ..which is NOT church of Christ the denomination. your getting good about avoiding direct questions

Many MEMBERS with "like precious faith" make up that one body and not many denominations/organization with conflicting beliefs make up the one body.

Whether you believe I am a member of Christ's one church or not, that one church/one body is not a denomination founded by men. Christ said I will build MY church, My shows posessions it's Christ church He built that goes by His teachings and he is its Head. It's and not a manmade organization with conflicting manmade teachings with men as its head with eartly headquarters.

 

[Mike]

It's God's way or it's the wrong way.

For I am not familar where the bible says man dictates how worship (singing) is to be done or how man is to be saved. When left to man, man will do nothing but corrupt it creating a mess of confusions and contradictions, which if you look around that is what man has to be done. There is God's righteous, uncorrupt, uncontradicting standard to go by or mans' unrighteous corrupt contradicting ways. I choose to God by God's righteous, uncontradicting standard and reject all the contradictions of man.

Col 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus,..."

Do you believe this verse? If so then why would it not apply to singing or to how many is saved or to other bible issues?

Again I am not familiar where all this has been left up to man to determine.

Perfect, Ernest. Just as I had anticipated. You have your talking points down so well, I've come to predict them word-for-word.

Romans 14
"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.4 Who are you [Ernest T. Bass] to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother [Ernest T. Bass]? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another [Ernest T Bass]. Instead, make up your mind [Ernest T. Bass] not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, [or any of your rules you make into salvation issues, Ernest T. Bass] but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. [just like musical instruments Ernest T. Bass] All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God [Ernest T. Bass]. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."




Ernest, why are you being a stumbling block to what the Lord is doing through others? Why do you not listen to the Lord? Why do you fight against Him, Ernest?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You have missed the larger issue--there is much disagreement even amongst those within the same church building, never mind within the same denomination. And this is most certainly the case within the Church of Christ.

It stands to reason then that the Church, the body of Christ, is made of all true believers, found in numerous denominations and church buildings around the world. As I have stated before, there is no one denomination, church, or person who has the whole truth. Not one.

Sure, you are right. I will say that I am here representing myself and not the church of Christ, for the church of Christ does not have spokes-persons that represents the church.


Unlike the Catholic denomination that has a heirarchy with the top being at the Vatican, when error starts at the top it will permeate the whole hierarchy. Yet Christ set up his one church with autonomous congregations. So if one congregations falls into error and apostasy, it will not bring other congregations down with it. Other congregations will mark and avoid that fallen congregation as Paul said to do.

Even man made denominations have their internal struggles such as over the trinity among certain groups, if it is it one or three distinct members.
A case where one Baptist preacher got to 'charismatic' for his old, traditional congregation and left or would have been fired. Many members fled to other places before he left.


you post "It stands to reason then that the Church, the body of Christ, is made of all true believers"
Then this implies the church is made up of contradicting beliefs and there are contradicting faiths. And it implies the church does not go by the bible for the bible does not contradict itself.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Don't we choose the Church on our knees to God in our heart? I'm not talking about denominations or dissension, I'm talking one on one with God. Every believer who loves God in his heart with faith is the church. Perhaps God deals with different people in different ways (which may not be for us to know) but it still comes down to one on one. .
??

Christ has one body. Acts 2:47 God adds those to that one body who does as He said.

Can anyone not in taht one body be saved? no Is that one body made up of contradicting faiths? no

 

[Vanguard]

Mt 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

My church singular not churhes plural. Nowhere does the bible say Jesus has many bodies with contradicting faiths but ONE body and ONE faith eph 4:4-5

Since you decided to go there...

Are you aware that Peter was called the Bishop of Rome, and that the Roman Catholic Church can trace their papal lineage all the way back to Peter? The RCC came before Protestants, the CoC, JW's or anyone else after ~1500 CE. If that is the case, then the one true church for Christians would be the Roman Catholic Church, using your logic. You said it...singular, not plural. The RCC came first and reigned for 1500 years until the Protestant Reformation. This is a historical FACT. Since the RCC was the church that Jesus built by way of Peter, I guess anyone who is not Roman Catholic is doomed.

 

[Free]

you post "It stands to reason then that the Church, the body of Christ, is made of all true believers"
Then this implies the church is made up of contradicting beliefs and there are contradicting faiths.

It does imply that the true Church is made up of believers that have differing and contradicting beliefs, yes, but not contradicting faiths. There is only one faith and differences of interpretation do not mean there is more than one. As has been stated many times, there are beliefs that are essential for salvation and beliefs that are not essential.

And it implies the church does not go by the bible for the bible does not contradict itself.

Not at all. Though the Bible does not contradict itself in matters of salvation, it is our understanding of it that causes the contradictions, understandings which are based on a variety of reasons. You nor the Church of Christ, nor any other person or denomination or church, are above the biases and difficulties involved in understanding Scripture. But that in no way whatsoever means that the Church does not go by the Bible.

 

[BornAgain]

Coincidentally, the sermon I listed to tonight at service mentioned the following verse which is appropriate for this thread.

John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Unity can be realized only when men of good will come to recognize Jesus as the only sovereign of his realm, the head of the church and the executor of his will on earth. When men come to respect God's word as they ought agreement on the basis of its teaching is easy. But, it will never be possible to unite on the doctrines and commandments of men. Creeds, confessions of faith, church manuals constitute a perpetual barrier to the unity of religious people.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Perfect, Ernest. Just as I had anticipated. You have your talking points down so well, I've come to predict them word-for-word.

Romans 14
"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.4 Who are you [Ernest T. Bass] to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother [Ernest T. Bass]? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’”

12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another [Ernest T Bass]. Instead, make up your mind [Ernest T. Bass] not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, [or any of your rules you make into salvation issues, Ernest T. Bass] but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. [just like musical instruments Ernest T. Bass] All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God [Ernest T. Bass]. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."




Ernest, why are you being a stumbling block to what the Lord is doing through others? Why do you not listen to the Lord? Why do you fight against Him, Ernest?

I must say you do not surprise me by bringing up this text...and taking it out of context. The context has to do with matters of OPINION and not matters of doctrine/Christ's law. The context has to do with eating meat that has been offered to idols. Paul and others with strong a faith understood idols are nothing so it did not matter about eating food that had been offered to idols for Paul said "every creature of God is" good for food 1 tim 4:1-5. Yet weaker members with weaker a faith may not desire to eat meat offered to idols for to their conscience it would be wrong. Since it does not matter if one eats or does not eat meat offered to idols, the stronger members should not look down upon or judge a weaker members but help those weaker in faith and not cause them to violate their conscience over a non-essential matter of opinion. On the other hand, doctrine/law of Christ is essential and a weak faith does not allow one to violate matters of Christ's laws. Christ's law is permanent and does not change over the weak faith some may have for their faith must change to conform to Christ's laws.

 

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Coincidentally, the sermon I listed to tonight at service mentioned the following verse which is appropriate for this thread.

John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Unity can be realized only when men of good will come to recognize Jesus as the only sovereign of his realm, the head of the church and the executor of his will on earth. When men come to respect God's word as they ought agreement on the basis of its teaching is easy.

Many Christians do "respect God's word as they ought," yet there is still disagreement. Your presumption that men don't respect the Bible as they ought is quite judgemental. I'm curious as to how you can know the hearts of so many?

But, it will never be possible to unite on the doctrines and commandments of men. Creeds, confessions of faith, church manuals constitute a perpetual barrier to the unity of religious people.

Not at all. Those things are, or at least were, very much a part of bringing unity. One of the main things that will always keep divisions in the Church are those persons, churches and denominations which claim to alone have the truth, to alone be the "true Church," and condemn the rest of Christ's followers to hell. It's root is pride.