Contradicting Beliefs

[reba]

Christians are under law to Christ, 1 Cor 9:21. John said sin was trnagression of the law, 1 Jn 3:4. So being under Christ's law and obeying that law is not the issue. The Pharisees were condemned for being hypocrites, condemned for trying to replace God's law with their traditions and were condemned for other things but the Pharisees were never condemned for following God's law but condmened time and again for disboeying God's law. Proverbs 3:1 Proverbs 7:2 Jeremiah 6:19 Jeremiah 9:13 Jeremiah 16:11 Eze 18:21 Eze 20:19

And God condemns the contradictions that exists today no differently than He condemned the Pharisees.

Quoting the OT didn't someone say to me that was another covenant ? The fallacies of your man made doctrine are showing...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Only God truly knows his own sheep, and we hear His voice and follow Him .
In the book of Judges the law had been misplaced and everyone did what was right in his own eyes. It was a disaster in their history.
There are many scriptures about becoming a Christian in theBible. I suspect when we get to heaven that God willhave used them all
But not necessarily all in the life of a single person. WE KNOW THAT GRACE, REPENTANCE AND FAITH ARE ALL FREE GIFTS OF GOD.
Our salvation rests not on what we do but on what He has done. How we respond may vary but shoulld be scriptual and inspired by God.
A Christian is a person in whom Christ lives by His Spirit.
The spirit of Christ does not cause strife or division. In fact we are supposed to avoid people who do this.

Hi,

Does (1)the bible determine how one becomes a Christian or does (2) the man-made contradcitions determine how one becomes a Christian?

If you answer the above with #1 then how can Christians exist in all the religious groups when they contradict each onter as to how become a Christian?


You post: Our salvation rests not on what we do but on what He has done. How we respond may vary but shoulld be scriptual and inspired by God.


1) First you say "salvation does not rest on what we do" but then you say "how we resond may vary but.....

So if salvation does not rest on what we do then what need is there in "responding"? There would be no need to respond to anything if salvation does not rest on what we do.


2) you do say how we respond should be scriptural. Scripture does not contradict itself as all these religious groups do so they all cannot be going by the uncontradicting scirpture. IF they all did truly go by the uncontradicting scripture, then they would all be in total agreement on how one becomes a Christians. But we know they are not in agreement so they all cannot be going by scripture so they all cannot be made up of Christians. Agreed?

I agree that the spirit of Christ does not cause contradiction but it is undenable that contradictions exists among all the various religious groups. So that must mean that some of the beliefs and doctrines that these groups believe and follow did not come from Christ's spirit but are man made and contradict the bible.

 

[Webb]

Hi Knotical
Three suggestions: 1 Read my brief post more carefully; 2 Go back and read the threads, this has been previously discussed more fully OR 3, I have offered previously to discuss this subject with ANY instrumental music advocate on the debate (one-on-one) section of this forum in a friendly way where points may be made and more fully detailed without interruption of posters. This invitation has included moderators as well. The invitation has been made several times, to date, no defenders of the instrument has come forward. Unless so, if I can resist the temptation of jumping into the thread here and them this should be my last post on the subject. At my age and with my responsibilities I cannot afford to waste time.

God bless to all and have Merry Kriffy and a prosperous 2013.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Paul said to the Corinthians, “Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment†1 Cor 1:10.

Paul is dealing with the root problem of denominationalism here. Some were saying, “I am of Paul, or I am of Apollos, or I am of Cephas?†1 Cor 1:12. Paul points out that denomination is division by asking them, “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or, were you baptized in the name of Paul?†1 Cor 1:13.

For anyone who desires to have a church named after them, Paul sets down two criterias. First, one must be crucified as a sinless sacrifice for his followers. No person on earth today can serve as a sinless sacrifice, Heb 10:12, Rom 3:23. Second, the leader of any group must have the God given authority to command baptism in his name.

In the New Testament there is no authority for baptizing into any man’s name, except Christ Matt 28:18-20. Denominationalism violates the pattern of the New Testament church. The Church of Christ is not a denomination.

Therefore, to answer to OP if one follows what the bible teaches contradiction would be limited. Man's interpretation is why there are so many different churches today.

Paul also said "Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing." Phil 3:16

None of what Paul said in these verses is taking place today among all these religious groups, but somehow they are all scripturally right in these contradictions.

 

[Knotical]

Hi Knotical
Three suggestions: 1 Read my brief post more carefully; 2 Go back and read the threads, this has been previously discussed more fully OR 3, I have offered previously to discuss this subject with ANY instrumental music advocate on the debate (one-on-one) section of this forum in a friendly way where points may be made and more fully detailed without interruption of posters. This invitation has included moderators as well. The invitation has been made several times, to date, no defenders of the instrument has come forward. Unless so, if I can resist the temptation of jumping into the thread here and them this should be my last post on the subject. At my age and with my responsibilities I cannot afford to waste time.

God bless to all and have Merry Kriffy and a prosperous 2013.

If you really want to discuss the topic, in an open forum, then just start a new thread. Everyone has obligations that pulls at our attention, however, the very fact that you are on here responding suggests that you have enough time to comment on this subject. So, start a new thread on this topic and we can discuss it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I went and reread the post Not there Rrowell. Show this forum Gods Word that says what you are trying so hard to force out of it...

Sure it is on topic I see a contradiction of beliefs.

Is singing to God an act/form of worship?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Colossians 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

It appears that we are to use psalms to teach and admonish. That would include Psalms 150.

Psalms simply means a pious song, meaning it may not be one of the Psalms that David wrote.




What About Singing “Psalms�


By Wayne Jackson

“Since the law of Moses was abolished by the death of Christ (Colossians 2:14), and the Psalms were a part of that law, why did Paul allow the singing of psalms in Christian worship (Ephesians 5:19)?â€

In the first place, when one recognizes that the Mosaic law was abolished by Christ’s death — and it certainly was (Romans 7:4; Galatians 3:24-25; Ephesians 2:14-15; Hebrews 7:12, etc.) — this fact does not mean that every truth or principle in the Old Testament suddenly became ineffective. In fact, the New Testament itself teaches otherwise.

Paul, in his letter to the saints in Rome, affirmed that the “things written aforetime,†i.e., in the Old Testament canon, “were written for our learning†(Romans 15:4). In the first Corinthian epistle the apostle taught that certain incidents in the history of the nation of Israel were provided as “our examples†(1 Corinthians 10:6), indeed they were “written for our admonition†(v. 11).

Earlier in the Corinthian correspondence, the apostle introduced an illustration from Moses’ law to buttress the proposition that gospel preachers are worthy of support. If Hebrew law provided for an ox to eat of the grain, as he trod upon it in a threshing process, then provisions most assuredly were appropriate for the minister of God’s word (1 Corinthians 9:9). The same example is appealed to in the apostle’s first letter to Timothy, in support of the idea that the elder who rules well is worthy of “double honor,†which signifies financial compensation (1 Timothy 5:17-18).

In the second place, when the scripture speaks of the abolition of the law, specific elements are in view. The law, with its bloody animal sacrifices, is not valid today as a redemptive system. The shedding of Christ’s blood nullified that. Nor is the worship ceremonialism of the old regime, with all its “carnal†features (see Hebrews 9:9-10), viable for those of this dispensation.

Finally, the term “psalm†simply means a “pious song.†It may or may not refer to one of the songs in the Old Testament book that bears that name. Many scholars believe that it is not possible to draw a hard line between “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs†in Ephesians 5:19. One has written: “It is impossible to fix precisely the limits of these termsâ€; he goes on to define “psalm†as “generally a rhythmic utterance, either actually one of the O.T. psalms, or [a song] sung in their manner†(H.C.G. Moule, Studies in Ephesians, Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1977, p. 136).

But why would it not be appropriate to sing, for example, Psalm 23, as we do frequently? Is not the Savior our shepherd (John 10:11)? Or what of Psalm 8? Is it not the case that the Lord’s name is “excellent†still? Of course if a psalm was prophetic, and it has been fulfilled already, obviously it would not be appropriate to sing it as if its fulfillment was yet future.

Otherwise, there is no violation of divine law in singing a psalm, written centuries ago, that expresses the same sentiments that children of God entertain today.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1057-what-about-singing-psalms

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Where is the command?


What about Psalms 150 is that not part of the Bible?

Yes, along with Psalms 66:13-15.

 

[Knotical]

Is singing to God an act/form of worship?

It certainly can be. And many people use it as that in their worship services.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Once again the problem is not so much the lack of IM it is the CofC teaching that they are the "only true church" as was stated by one of its members....And of all things CofC seems to base that teaching on something that isn't Scriptural.

How many churches did Christ establish? How many bodies does the bible say there are? Matt 16:18 Eph 4:4

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

One church with many congregations as the church of Christ at Jerusalem and the church of Christ at Ephesus, the church of Christ at Galatia and so on. There is only one body Eph 4:4 not many bodies with contradicting beliefs.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Your buddy reba brought up CoC and IM and I will stay with the OP.

IM is another area of contradiction among groups.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I did not read this entire thread. Only the last few pages. But are we nit-picking here? Are we acting in love? I do not understand the negative emotion in discussing this. What are we trying to prove? Even if we are under a new covenant are we to leave the OT behind? I would think not. We may not be bound to the first covenant as Law, the love of Christ still encompasses the teachings therein. The discourse herein is baffling to a young Christian as myself.

There are major differences and contradictions among all the hundreds if not thoiusands of religious groups. Differences and contradiction about salvation, worship and other issues. Can all these groups be scripturally correct and be allbe Christans when they contradict wach other on very basic but important issues? Jesus onece said "thy word is truth". Since these groups all contradcit themsleves and truth does not contradict itself then it becomes evident that all these groups do not have the truth Jesus spoke about. One of those contradicting issues is if the Christian still follows the laws found in the or not. This is a salvational issue for in Rom 7 Paul said the Christian is married to Christ therefore is dead to the law, Rom 7:4. A Christian who tries to keep both the OT and NT laws at the same time is committing a kind of spirtual adultery as a woman who is marrried to two husbands at the same time is committing adultery. A spiritual adulterer as well as physical adulterers cannot be saved.

 

[Sinthesis]

the CoC did not write Eph. 5:19 or Col. 3:16, it is in the Bible written by Apostles and the hand of the Holy Spirit Reba, NOT the CoC, it appears only the CoC reads the Bible...

"sing and make melody" is the command, and the "heart" is the instrument, you sing from the heart Reba, it is what the Bible says, there is no mechanical instrument there... the heart is the instrument Reba.



It is also not the Doctrine of Christ, it is also not the Doctrine he died and shed his blood for, it is also not the Church he built...

So now you're saying that vocal singing is an abomination? That the only melody to be made must be cardiac in nature? A good beat and easy to dance to, but that's all?

Are you even reading what your replying to?

I said the Bible says to "sing and make melody in your heart", I said the bible say's we are to "sing" as a form of worship to Him, now how do you get "abomination" out of that?

If you are to be consistent in your argument, then when you claim that 'making melody from the heart' negates the use of a musical instrument, you must also claim that 'singing from the heart' negates the use of the voice. If the heart is the instrument, then the heart is also the voice.

 

[Webb]

Knotical

On the one-on-one the participants can respond at leisure and thoughts are not misplaced and lost in a host of other posts.
Such is indeed a GREAT time saver.
God bless

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

there is no command any one can produce in the NT saying not to use IM.....

Adding to God's Word doesn't seem like a good idea to me....

I will address this one last time but your continued use of your flawed logic proves nothing. The onus is upon you to prove your own positions it is not up to anyone to unprove them. If you think there is nothing wrong using IM then prove it....prove from the NT there is nothing wrong with using IM. So far you have not for you cannot. Your whole argument is based upon the flawed thinking that since the NT does not specifically say "do not use IMs" then it's alright to use IMs. But this proves nothing for it's flawed thinking. When God told Noah to use gopher wood did that mean Noah was free to use any wood he chose to use since God did not specifically say "do not use oak, do not use elm, do not use cherry, do not use cedar, do not use pine" and on and on until God specifically eliminated every other type of wood there is other than gopher? No, for common sense and simple logic told Noah that when God said "gopher wood" that automatically elimnated all the other types of wood without God having to specifically eliminate them. Likewise when God said sing that eliminates all other types of music without God having to specify them. You can continue to make this flawed argument for others to see but it will fall upon my deaf ears. When you come up with a better "logically" sound argument I wll respond but this one has grown old and does not prove your position.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As long as you stretch my words to fit what you want them to be I am in good company because cofC does the same to Gods Holy Word


Do your gatherings speak in tongues...As per 1 Co 14: 39

Have the CofC congregation sold all? as per the NT church
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Do you meet in the temple daily ?

Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Any one in your gatherings owe a mortgage?

If one would take "all the counsel of God" they would see that miraculous tongue speaking was for a specific time, for a specific purpose and do not exist today for they fullfilled their time and purpose back in the first century. No one today can speak in tongues as the apostles did in Acts 2.....many claimers but no performers.

This is just another area where contradcitions exists among groups.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Quoting the OT didn't someone say to me that was another covenant ? The fallacies of your man made doctrine are showing...

Where in my post did I tell anyone they should follow the OT laws? I didn't, so your argument fails....again. Just becasue Christ took the OT out of the way making it of no effect, there are truths that still exist in the OT.

Duet 10:17 "For the LORD your God [is] God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:"

Even though Christ took the OT out of the way making it of no effect, God is still the God of gods and Lord of lords, that truth remains but does not mean the Christian is under and has to live by those OT laws.

So the fallacy is on your part again in trying to prove something you cannot.

 

[Sinthesis]

I will address this one last time but your continued use of your flawed logic proves nothing. The onus is upon you to prove your own positions it is not up to anyone to unprove them. If you think there is nothing wrong using IM then prove it....prove from the NT there is nothing wrong with using IM. So far you have not for you cannot. Your whole argument is based upon the flawed thinking that since the NT does not specifically say "do not use IMs" then it's alright to use IMs. But this proves nothing for it's flawed thinking. When God told Noah to use gopher wood did that mean Noah was free to use any wood he chose to use since God did not specifically say "do not use oak, do not use elm, do not use cherry, do not use cedar, do not use pine" and on and on until God specifically eliminated every other type of wood there is other than gopher? No, for common sense and simple logic told Noah that when God said "gopher wood" that automatically elimnated all the other types of wood without God having to specifically eliminate them. Likewise when God said sing that eliminates all other types of music without God having to specify them. You can continue to make this flawed argument for others to see but it will fall upon my deaf ears. When you come up with a better "logically" sound argument I wll respond but this one has grown old and does not prove your position.

Noah is from the OT; there is lots of instruction to use musical instruments in the OT. But, really... Demanding proof of a negative is silly, especially when there is no proof of the affirmative. Where should we turn?

Luk 9:49 - And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 - And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.​

 

[Free]

If you are to be consistent in your argument, then when you claim that 'making melody from the heart' negates the use of a musical instrument, you must also claim that 'singing from the heart' negates the use of the voice. If the heart is the instrument, then the heart is also the voice.

Don't forget this passage:

1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. (ESV)