Contradicting Beliefs

[rrowell]

Here, you are most certainly wrong. If scripture is silent on something, the onus is on those who say God demands that it not be done. You don't know that He demands that instruments not be used in worship, because He never says they are not to. The onus is on you to prove your position. It is most definitely on you. Scripture is silent on it. This would be an amusing conversation if you didn't make a small thing that God is silent on salvific. Since you have, your flawed logic is tragic.

Where is all the scripture to back that opinionated statement...

Again I will use the Old Testament for the purpose it was left to us for, we are no longer under any law or commands in it, the laws have changed, but God has not so we can use it to know he means what he says and says what he means:

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And since the schoolmaster is scripture and all scripture can be used for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then since Nadab and Abihu were instructed on how to make fire (parallel with our instruction to "sing") they decided to make fire other than the way he said (parallel with our playing music) and because they made fire in a way "he commanded them not" he killed them.

Leviticus 10:1-2 (KJV)
1. And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

Note he "commanded them not" so he had "not commanded them to do it" so we have an example that shows just because he did not say we cannot do it, it does not mean we can.

There is scripture that supports the fact we cannot worship him the way we want to, but the way He wants us to... so where is your scripture that says you can do anything you want as long as he did not say "don't do that"?

 

[Sinthesis]

According to your flawed logic, Church organists should be devoured by fire from the Lord.

Luk 9:49 - And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 - And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.​

 

[rrowell]

According to your flawed logic, Church organists should be devoured by fire from the Lord.

Luk 9:49 - And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 - And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.​

With the scripture you quoted you obviously recognize "authority", those in Luke 9:49 by doing so "in thy name", although not with the disciples were doing so in a way he authorized.

So, without "flawed logic" show me where in the new testament IM was performed, taught, or commanded "in thy (His) name" or "by his authority?" lay aside stringed instruments, you certainly cannot find authorization for any wind (organ) instruments...

I can show you where we are told to "sing and make melody?"

 

[Mike]

So, without "flawed logic" show me where in the new testament IM was performed, taught, or commanded "in thy (His) name" or "by his authority?" lay aside stringed instruments, you certainly cannot find authorization for any wind (organ) instruments...

Again, since the Bible is silent on it, the onus is on you to prove God feels the way you say He does. I'll take His Word; not yours.

I can show you where we are told to "sing and make melody?"

Great! I do that! :yes Can you show where it says not to add instruments to that singing? The onus is yours.

 

[rrowell]

Again, since the Bible is silent on it, the onus is on you to prove God feels the way you say He does. I'll take His Word; not yours.



Great! I do that! :yes Can you show where it says not to add instruments to that singing? The onus is yours.

Ill refer you to my post to you which you skirted right over, I showed that in times past God has shown displeasure in those who worship him the way they want to, and not the way He wants them to.

Again I will use the Old Testament for the purpose it was left to us for, we are no longer under any law or commands in it, the laws have changed, but God has not so we can use it to know he means what he says and says what he means:

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And since the schoolmaster is scripture and all scripture can be used for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Then since Nadab and Abihu were instructed on how to make fire (parallel with our instruction to "sing") they decided to make fire other than the way he said (parallel with our playing music) and because they made fire in a way "he commanded them not" he killed them.

Leviticus 10:1-2 (KJV)
1. And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not.
2. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord.

Note he "commanded them not" so he had "not commanded them to do it" so we have an example that shows just because he did not say we cannot do it, it does not mean we can.

There is scripture that supports the fact we cannot worship him the way we want to, but the way He wants us to... so where is your scripture that says you can do anything you want as long as he did not say "don't do that"?

The Onus is on you.

 

[Grazer]

Is the debate about musical instruments in worship still going on?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[evenifigoalone]

I don't care for these debate threads, as for one thing they often go over my head, but if I may just pop in here for a second and give my experience--
I haven't read the entire thread or even a great deal of it, but it appears the topic is about worshipping without music?
Just wanted to say that I've had some very wonderful worship experiences when singing, both with and without music. IMO, the music doesn't really matter, it's the condition of your heart.

 

[Grazer]

I don't care for these debate threads, as for one thing they often go over my head, but if I may just pop in here for a second and give my experience--
I haven't read the entire thread or even a great deal of it, but it appears the topic is about worshipping without music?
Just wanted to say that I've had some very wonderful worship experiences when singing, both with and without music. IMO, the music doesn't really matter, it's the condition of your heart.

Here here *applause

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[rrowell]

I don't care for these debate threads, as for one thing they often go over my head, but if I may just pop in here for a second and give my experience--
I haven't read the entire thread or even a great deal of it, but it appears the topic is about worshipping without music?
Just wanted to say that I've had some very wonderful worship experiences when singing, both with and without music. IMO, the music doesn't really matter, it's the condition of your heart.

Hi Questdriven,

You said "I've had some very wonderful worship experiences when singing, both with and without music." which brings us to the Title of this thread "Contradicting Beliefs" and Instrumental music happens to be one of them.

Earnest T. Bass has rightly said all these contradicting beliefs cannot be right and has come to the point we may as well all throw out our Bibles because nobody is going by them anyway...

It has been pointed out in the NT that the Lord has told us to Sing and make melody in our hearts Eph. 5:19 Col 3:16, at what point do we stop worshiping God the way He wants us to and begin worshiping him the way that makes us most happy?

There is no biblical proof that anything but singing is authorized in new testament worship...

 

[evenifigoalone]

I don't see how worshipping with or without music is a contradiction.
I'd think if made a difference, that God would have said something about it. It doesn't make sense that worshipping while using musical instruments is damning and yet God doesn't say anything about it, y'know? That sounds like more of a contradiction to me. And if it's wrong, why is it that God often speaks to me through songs that have music?
I believe that God has a real purpose for the commands He has in place, and that He doesn't make them up just 'cause.

I respect your opinion, though. If you think music is wrong, don't use it.

 

[Knotical]

Hi Questdriven,

You said "I've had some very wonderful worship experiences when singing, both with and without music." which brings us to the Title of this thread "Contradicting Beliefs" and Instrumental music happens to be one of them.

Earnest T. Bass has rightly said all these contradicting beliefs cannot be right and has come to the point we may as well all throw out our Bibles because nobody is going by them anyway...

It has been pointed out in the NT that the Lord has told us to Sing and make melody in our hearts Eph. 5:19 Col 3:16, at what point do we stop worshiping God the way He wants us to and begin worshiping him the way that makes us most happy?

There is no biblical proof that anything but singing is authorized in new testament worship...

There is also no biblical proof that says we are not allowed to use instruments as part of worship. You keep referencing the verse in Ephesians. You should really study the context before building a doctrine based on something that is not actually being said.

 

[rrowell]

I don't see how worshipping with or without music is a contradiction.
I'd think if made a difference, that God would have said something about it. It doesn't make sense that worshipping while using musical instruments is damning and yet God doesn't say anything about it, y'know? That sounds like more of a contradiction to me. And if it's wrong, why is it that God often speaks to me through songs that have music?
I believe that God has a real purpose for the commands He has in place, and that He doesn't make them up just 'cause.

I respect your opinion, though. If you think music is wrong, don't use it.

My Opining has nothing to do with it, if we rely on everyone's opinion we end up with thousands of "Contradicting Beliefs"

 

[evenifigoalone]

And yet there are seemingly endless ways to interpret scripture, evidenced by all the neverending debates on it on this site alone. I'm not saying they're all right, because they can't all be right. In the end we end up deciding for ourselves what we think is right, one way or another. Whether we reach those conclusions through rational thought and guidance from Scripture and the Holy Spirit is what's important.

 

[reba]

I don't see how worshipping with or without music is a contradiction.
I'd think if made a difference, that God would have said something about it. It doesn't make sense that worshipping while using musical instruments is damning and yet God doesn't say anything about it, y'know? That sounds like more of a contradiction to me. And if it's wrong, why is it that God often speaks to me through songs that have music?
I believe that God has a real purpose for the commands He has in place, and that He doesn't make them up just 'cause.

I respect your opinion, though. If you think music is wrong, don't use it.

Worshiping with out IM is not the contradiction. The contradiction comes in when the CofC believes they are the only true church and everyone else is damned.
The cofC is full of hypocrisy. Using the OT only when it serves the outcome they wish. Ignoring passages that say clearly "do this" or "don't do this" because it does not fit their choices.
Claiming to be NT cofC and yet they do not adhere to Acts 2:45.... 1 Cor 14:39 is disregarded ...Romans 16:16 is ignored for sake of a name, a title ,

The contradiction is between churches and Scripture.

 

[reba]

And yet there are seemingly endless ways to interpret scripture, evidenced by all the neverending debates on it on this site alone. I'm not saying they're all right, because they can't all be right. In the end we end up deciding for ourselves what we think is right, one way or another. Whether we reach those conclusions through rational thought and guidance from Scripture and the Holy Spirit is what's important.

Amen

 

[Knotical]

Worshiping with out IM is not the contradiction. The contradiction comes in when the CofC believes they are the only true church and everyone else is damned.
The cofC is full of hypocrisy. Using the OT only when it serves the outcome they wish. Ignoring passages that say clearly "do this" or "don't do this" because it does not fit their choices.
Claiming to be NT cofC and yet they do not adhere to Acts 2:45.... 1 Cor 14:39 is disregarded ...Romans 16:16 is ignored for sake of a name, a title ,

The contradiction is between churches and Scripture.

Don't forget arrogance. There is just a touch of arrogance as well.

 

[rrowell]

There is also no biblical proof that says we are not allowed to use instruments as part of worship. You keep referencing the verse in Ephesians. You should really study the context before building a doctrine based on something that is not actually being said.

I have, the Context of the book is about Unity of the Believer, and the chapter is walking circumspectly, filled with the Spirit... :


Ephesians 5:15-21 (KJV)
15. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16. Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20. Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

So in order to thwart off division and bring forth unity, Paul tells us in verse 19 a proper way to worship, no mention of "mechanical" musical instruments... (unless you can show someplace else that does) we are to "sing".

 

[evenifigoalone]

Didn't they mention musical instruments in the Psalms?

Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.

The instruments mentioned there have modern equivalents, as well.

Stringed instruments of today would include guitars, violins, celoes, etc.
Drums are similar to cymbals and tambourines.

 

[Knotical]

I have, the Context of the book is about Unity of the Believer, and the chapter is walking circumspectly, filled with the Spirit... :


Ephesians 5:15-21 (KJV)
15. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16. Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20. Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

So in order to thwart off division and bring forth unity, Paul tells us in verse 19 a proper way to worship, no mention of "mechanical" musical instruments... (unless you can show someplace else that does) we are to "sing".

You have obviously missed the context of what is being discussed here. He is talking about the heart of the believer and what comes out of it, not specifically what should be used to express what is in the believer's heart. Verse 19 is providing an example of what can be used for bringing honor and praise to God.

 

[Knotical]

Didn't they mention musical instruments in the Psalms?

Very much so. But the CofC doesn't have time for such things as Psalms 150, or other such verses.