[__ Science __ ] Covid Vaccine — Texas Senate Discussion

[Mister E]

People believe this because they are essentially anti-science and conspiracy theorists, but it just isn't based on reality; it's far-right propaganda. Such an argument ignores the nature of viruses, how vaccines work against specific variants, the difficulties with getting vaccines delivered around the world quick enough, and human nature.

It also completely ignores a massive amount of data to say that vaccines are "more harmful than good." The data proves that 1) the vaccines significantly reduce severe illness, hospitalizations, and deaths, and 2) that getting COVID can not only give the same negative side effects that relatively very few have had with the vaccines, but that a person is much more likely to get them with COVID. In short, the vaccines are much safer than getting COVID and have proved to be very beneficial.

Baloney. Except for what you quoted that I bolded above.

Let's take a couple of island examples and compare data. Your narrative collapses.


New Zealand compared with Haiti. Do you want to compare vaccinations versus COVID deaths? New Zealand is highest in both.

NZ jabbed 100% of adults-- which translates to more than 83% of their entire population and rising as they now vaccinate children as young as six months of age.

Haiti? 1.5% of the population has been jabbed.

How many COVID deaths?

NZ--- 1868
Haiti--- 837

Haiti has twice as many people as NZ (11.1 M vs 5.1) so the death rate is actually 400% higher in NZ where virtually everyone is triple and going on 4 times jabbed.

 

[Barbarian]

The vaccination narrative (the case for the jabs) is collapsing under the weight of itself. The things they said it would do, it has not done. It doesn't prevent, it doesn't protect. It just doesn't.

I know you want to believe that. But the data says otherwise...

National Library of Medicine

Effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines on covid-19 related symptoms, hospital admissions, and mortality in older adults in England: test negative case-control study ​

BMJ
2021 May 13;373:
Conclusion:
Vaccination with either one dose of BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1-S was associated with a significant reduction in symptomatic covid-19 in older adults, and with further protection against severe disease. Both vaccines showed similar effects. Protection was maintained for the duration of follow-up (>6 weeks). A second dose of BNT162b2 was associated with further protection against symptomatic disease. A clear effect of the vaccines against the B.1.1.7 variant was found.

There's a lot more. Do you need to see more? The data are more persuasive than you are. Sorry.

 

[Barbarian]

Not only does poor old Joe have cancer.... the triple jabbed super senior also has COVID. Very mild case mind you. You have to put on your imagination glasses and wonder how bad it might have been if he had not been thrice jabbed.

There's data for that, too...

• A study from researchers in South Korea is the latest to report that people who are fully vaccinated have less serious cases of COVID-19.
• Researchers reported that fully vaccinated people have milder symptoms and are less likely to end up in intensive care units if they are hospitalized with COVID-19.
• They also reported there were few cases of pneumonia among vaccinated people who were hospitalized with COVID-19.

Researchers reported that when chest CT scans were performed on 412 of the study participants, the exams revealed 59 percent of those who were fully vaccinated were free of pneumonia — a serious complication of COVID-19 — compared with 30 percent of partially vaccinated participants and 22 percent of unvaccinated participants.

“Pneumonia is one of the worst manifestations of COVID and a leading symptom of hospitalizations, morbidity, and mortality,” Morey said.

Which COVID-19 Vaccine is Best: For Adults, Children & More

Receiving any of the COVID-19 vaccines is better than remaining unvaccinated. The CDC recommends an mRNA vaccine over the J&J vaccine. Learn more.

www.healthline.com

Pretty much what you'd expect.

 

[Mister E]

I know you want to believe that. But the data says otherwise...

National Library of Medicine

Effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines on covid-19 related symptoms, hospital admissions, and mortality in older adults in England: test negative case-control study ​

BMJ
2021 May 13;373:
Conclusion:
Vaccination with either one dose of BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1-S was associated with a significant reduction in symptomatic covid-19 in older adults, and with further protection against severe disease. Both vaccines showed similar effects. Protection was maintained for the duration of follow-up (>6 weeks). A second dose of BNT162b2 was associated with further protection against symptomatic disease. A clear effect of the vaccines against the B.1.1.7 variant was found.

There's a lot more. Do you need to see more? The data are more persuasive than you are. Sorry.

Again— Baloney. Get up to date.

The truth is, the more we jab the higher the infection and death rates teeter toward the vaccinated.

Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19): Weekly Epidemiological Update (20 July 2022) - World

Situation Report in English on World about Health and Epidemic; published on 20 Jul 2022 by WHO

reliefweb.int

In the UK vaccinated children die from covid more than 13000% more often than unvaccinated. Thirteen Thousand percent more.

 

[Free]

Baloney. Except for what you quoted that I bolded above.

Let's take a couple of island examples and compare data. Your narrative collapses.


New Zealand compared with Haiti. Do you want to compare vaccinations versus COVID deaths? New Zealand is highest in both.

NZ jabbed 100% of adults-- which translates to more than 83% of their entire population and rising as they now vaccinate children as young as six months of age.

Haiti? 1.5% of the population has been jabbed.

How many COVID deaths?

NZ--- 1868
Haiti--- 837

Haiti has twice as many people as NZ (11.1 M vs 5.1) so the death rate is actually 400% higher in NZ where virtually everyone is triple and going on 4 times jabbed.

I find that stats are so easily misused and abused, largely because most people just don't understand them or dig deep enough into the details. They also often they get caught in the base rate fallacy.

Let's look at NZ. If we look at the number of positive cases for those who are unvaccinated, there are a total of 57,117 cases, with 1,394 hospitalizations and 97 in ICU. That means that of those who are unvaccinated, 2.4% get hospitalized and 0.17% required the ICU. If we look at fully vaccinated, there are a total of 499,809 cases, with 2,489 hospitalizations and 81 in ICU. That gives us 0.5% that were hospitalized and 0.016% that required the ICU. For those that received the first booster, there are 760,666 total cases, with 3,896 hospitalizations and 122 requiring the ICU. Those numbers mean that 0.51% were hospitalized and 0.016% were in the ICU.

To sum then, the fully vaxxed and boosted number are literally identical. When we consider the unvaxxed, they are 4.8 times more likely to be hospitalized and 10.6 times more likely to need the ICU. I can't find the numbers for vaxxed vs. unvaxxed deaths, but it would be safe to assume we would see something similar, especially since the numbers in ICU are so much higher.

https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19...ata-and-statistics/covid-19-case-demographics

Not to mention that 99+% of their cases and deaths have been since mid February of this year. So there seems to be something else going on.

https://covid19.who.int/region/wpro/country/nz

How many other countries have the same type of numbers as Haiti? I'm guessing that both of these situations lean more towards being statistical outliers, especially Haiti.

This may help you understand the numbers better: https://www.scientificamerican.com/...eaths-for-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people/

Again— Baloney. Get up to date.

The truth is, the more we jab the higher the infection and death rates teeter toward the vaccinated.

See the above. You seem to possibly be confusing rates with absolute numbers.

 

[Barbarian]

I know you want to believe that. But the data says otherwise...

National Library of Medicine

Effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines on covid-19 related symptoms, hospital admissions, and mortality in older adults in England: test negative case-control study ​

BMJ
2021 May 13;373:
Conclusion:
Vaccination with either one dose of BNT162b2 or ChAdOx1-S was associated with a significant reduction in symptomatic covid-19 in older adults, and with further protection against severe disease. Both vaccines showed similar effects. Protection was maintained for the duration of follow-up (>6 weeks). A second dose of BNT162b2 was associated with further protection against symptomatic disease. A clear effect of the vaccines against the B.1.1.7 variant was found.

There's a lot more. Do you need to see more? The data are more persuasive than you are. Sorry.

Again— Baloney. Get up to date.

The truth is, the more we jab the higher the infection and death rates teeter toward the vaccinated.

I can believe your unsupported feelings or I can believe the data. Not much of a choice, is it?

In the UK vaccinated children die from covid more than 13000% more often than unvaccinated. Thirteen Thousand percent more.

Your link doesn't say so. And in fact...

Viral Facebook post: COVID-19 death rates in England are higher among vaccinated people than unvaccinated.

PolitiFact's ruling: False

Here's why: The claim makes a statistical error. The ratio it cites is based on raw numbers of deaths among vaccinated and unvaccinated people. It does not compare death rates, which would take into account the size of each group.
...
The same vaccine surveillance report the blog post cites provides the statistics in this context. During the three-week period, it says, England had 54.9 COVID-19 deaths per 100,000 people among those who were vaccinated and 125.4 deaths per 100,000 among those who were unvaccinated.

The vaccines offer more than 90% protection against mortality, the health agency’s report says.

 

[Corn Pop]

I'm still wondering what lockdowns achieved. All I seen that come out of it is the destruction of mental health, destruction of small business, and the economy now coming back to bite.

What changed now everything is back open, well those who survived all the lockdowns that is, its the same as before the lockdowns, the virus is still spreading and people are still getting sick and dying.

At least should admit elimination failure. That's what was the lockdown goal and we got praised for, they specifically said level 4 eliminate. And i think it got to 0 community cases so mission accomplished. Well done. That lasted how long from locking down after 1 case?

So whats the solution to eliminate, keep everyone locked down forever so they can never visit there family or friends ever again or get a haircut or go to a restaurant or go for a walk in the park or go to a wedding or a funeral and embrace another human being.

Well, I think we got a few thousand cases at the moment many months after lock down, so I mean, elimination worked for a very short time but just admit long term failure.

 

[Barbarian]

I'm still wondering what lockdowns achieved.

Nothing but time. Time to figure out what this virus is, time to get vacciines on line, time to figure out what works.

All I seen that come out of it is the destruction of mental health, destruction of small business, and the economy now coming back to bite.

The initial response in the U.S. was badly bungled. And not just Trump. Many states failed to do the right things at the right time. There had been a pandemic response team at the federal level, using lessons learned from SARS and Ebola events. However, it had been dismantled, just before it could have helped.

What changed now everything is back open, well those who survived all the lockdowns that is, its the same as before the lockdowns, the virus is still spreading and people are still getting sick and dying.

Just many fewer than would have died if we hadn't been practicing social distancing, wearing masks, and avoiding superspreader events.

At least should admit elimination failure.

No one who knows anything about such viruses said we'd eliminate it. It's more like influenza than like smallpox.

So whats the solution

Get vaccinated. If cases rise locally, use social distancing and avoid large gatherings. Use masks to protect others, if you have to go to large gatherings in an outbreak. Common sense stuff.

Well, I think we got a few thousand cases at the moment many months after lock down, so I mean, elimination worked for a very short time but just admit long term failure.

Scientists and physicians predicted summer would bring a rise in cases. As you might have heard, epidemiologists predicted that the virus would become endemic, and we'd just have to deal with it, as we deal with influenza.

 

[Mister E]

No one who knows anything about such viruses said we'd eliminate it. It's more like influenza than like smallpox.

Gotta love it. I guess that says a lot about the CDC and Resident Biden.

Get vaccinated. If cases rise locally, use social distancing and avoid large gatherings. Use masks to protect others, if you have to go to large gatherings in an outbreak. Common sense stuff.

Gotta love the true believers. Get your bat shot, and your bat boosters Bat Man..... And for our next act-- Get your monkey shots!

 

[Barbarian]

No one who knows anything about such viruses said we'd eliminate it. It's more like influenza than like smallpox.

Gotta love it. I guess that says a lot about the CDC and Resident Biden.

Didn't see CDC say anything like that. By all means show us where they predicted that the COVID-19 virus would be "eliminated." And you're a little confused about presidents. We did have one WH resident blather on about eliminating the virus, but as you know, he's kind of an idiot:

Donald Trump, February 27th at the White House: "It's going to disappear. One day, it's like a miracle, it will disappear."

‘One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear’: Trump on Covid-19

As the US president tests positive, here’s timeline of some of his comments regarding coronavirus

www.irishtimes.com

And yes, he really is that dumb.

Or are you "a believer?" Sorry about that.

 

[Mister E]

No one who knows anything about such viruses said we'd eliminate it. It's more like influenza than like smallpox.


Didn't see CDC say anything like that. By all means show us where they predicted that the COVID-19 virus would be "eliminated." And you're a little confused about presidents. We did have one WH resident blather on about eliminating the virus, but as you know, he's kind of an idiot:

Donald Trump, February 27th at the White House: "It's going to disappear. One day, it's like a miracle, it will disappear."

‘One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear’: Trump on Covid-19

As the US president tests positive, here’s timeline of some of his comments regarding coronavirus

www.irishtimes.com

And yes, he really is that dumb.

Or are you "a believer?" Sorry about that.

I’m already tired of the game. I can offer a hundred clips of CDC spokespersons, Ouchi Fauci , Sucki Saki, Camela Erroris, and Cancerous, Asthmatic Joe in particular announcing he will end the pandemic.

I’m simply not buying anything you are peddling. Propagandist garbage fit only for sheep fodder.

I’ll have none of it.

 

[Northman]

I’ll have none of it.

You don't like "data" from sites that even an obama birther wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole?

 

[Free]

I’m simply not buying anything you are peddling. Propagandist garbage fit only for sheep fodder.

I’ll have none of it.

But you are, by spreading propaganda yourself, saying that "the vaccines are more harmful than good." The data proves otherwise.

 

[Mister E]

But you are, by spreading propaganda yourself, saying that "the vaccines are more harmful than good." The data proves otherwise.

It's going to be a very simple comparison. We can look at data all day.

Let's compare Florida and California.... two similar States with two very different approaches to the "pandemic."

California says all children must be vaccinated in order to attend school and schools are reinstituting mandatory indoor masking. Florida recommends that children DO NOT receive a jab, and there are no masking mandates in schools.

We can compare any metric you like-- infections, deaths, economic impact, math test scores..... Disney World versus Disneyland.... who did better?

 

[Free]

It's going to be a very simple comparison. We can look at data all day.

Let's compare Florida and California.... two similar States with two very different approaches to the "pandemic."

California says all children must be vaccinated in order to attend school and schools are reinstituting mandatory indoor masking. Florida recommends that children DO NOT receive a jab, and there are no masking mandates in schools.

We can compare any metric you like-- infections, deaths, economic impact, math test scores..... Disney World versus Disneyland.... who did better?

The argument I was addressing is your argument that "vaccines are more harmful than good." So the metrics that matter are what we have largely been discussing: deaths, severe outcomes, hospitalizations, and negative side-effects of both COVID and the vaccines.

 

[Mister E]

The argument I was addressing is your argument that So the metrics that matter are what we have largely been discussing: deaths, severe outcomes, hospitalizations, and negative side-effects of both COVID and the vaccines.

There are ZERO side effects from not taking the shot.

There are SOME side effects from getting it.

So using just one of the metrics you mention-- "negative side effects" --- my statement is proven true:

"vaccines are more harmful than good."

Do you want to look at data for children?

 

[Free]

There are ZERO side effects from not taking the shot.

There are SOME side effects from getting it.

So using just one of the metrics you mention-- "negative side effects" --- my statement is proven true:

"vaccines are more harmful than good."

Do you want to look at data for children?

Wow. A better example of poor reasoning will be hard to find, even on this site.

 

[Barbarian]

I

I’m already tired of the game. I can offer a hundred clips of CDC spokespersons, Ouchi Fauci , Sucki Saki, Camela Erroris, and Cancerous, Asthmatic Joe in particular announcing he will end the pandemic.

But you don't have even one to show us? I think I know why. BTW, "ending the pandemic" is not the same as "eliminating the virus." For example, the 1918 influenza pandemic came to an end, but the virus wasn't elminated. Do you understand why?

Trump said the virus would disappear "like a miracle." But no one with any sense said that.

I’m simply not buying anything you are peddling.

That's the funny thing about reality; it doesn't care what we think about it. Consider for a moment why you don't have any statements from CDC promisiing to "eliminate" the virus. And then think of Trump promising it will disappear "like a miracle."