Data On The Trinity

[gordon777]

I have no idea of your point. I believe Jesus is before all things and those things were made through Him. He is shown as a craftsman in the beginning with the Father in regard to the creation. I believe He came down from heaven. I believe He rose on the third day and ascended to right hand of the Father. (Where He was before)

I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I know Him and He knows me.

I think Jesus submits His will and follows the Fathers will. As in He remains in the Fathers love because He always does what pleases Him.

You think wrong, Jesus does not submit His will, He came to to the Fathers will, being His own will. ( He honours the Father to humble Himself as the Son.)

Then Jesus Christ no longer has to humble Himself, as upon death He got the name above ALL OTHER..



Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

You really don't seem to understand how debate and discussion actually work. It isn't a matter of you posting something and if I don't like it, I post what I think, and then we move on. I made several points which refute your understanding; I have proven you wrong, or at least likely wrong and my interpretation is better. I showed that your reasoning is faulty.

This is the point where you respond to the points in my response, not move on to something else. You're just interested in monologue, not dialogue, which is how we come to the truth, or the most likely truth, of a matter.

I disagree. What I do is present facts. What you do is attack me. You do this because you can't win on the facts.

 

[gordon777]

I disagree. What I do is present facts. What you do is attack me. You do this because you can't win on the facts.

Presenting facts is not the example of Christ and the Apostles, laying their lives down is.


John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

 

[Free]

Presenting facts is not the example of Christ and the Apostles, laying their lives down is.

Presenting facts is very much their example. They didn't lay down their lives in a vacuum.

 

[Free]

I disagree. What I do is present facts. What you do is attack me. You do this because you can't win on the facts.

I haven't attacked you. Disagreement and debate are not attacks. You present your interpretations of the facts, which I, and the vast majority of Christians in history, disagree with. I provide a rebuttal of your interpretations with interpretations that the vast majority of Christians in history would agree with, which you then ignore.

Are you going to address my rebuttal?

 

[gordon777]

Presenting facts is very much their example. They didn't lay down their lives in a vacuum.

I guess you agree with loving in word and tongue then, even though it is COMMANDED NOT TO


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

 

[gordon777]

I haven't attacked you. Disagreement and debate are not attacks. You present your interpretations of the facts, which I, and the vast majority of Christians in history, disagree with. I provide a rebuttal of your interpretations with interpretations that the vast majority of Christians in history would agree with, which you then ignore.

Are you going to address my rebuttal?

Debate is the sign of men, ( carnal) the ungodly



Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[gordon777]

I haven't attacked you. Disagreement and debate are not attacks. You present your interpretations of the facts, which I, and the vast majority of Christians in history, disagree with. I provide a rebuttal of your interpretations with interpretations that the vast majority of Christians in history would agree with, which you then ignore.

Are you going to address my rebuttal?

Disputes of men are perverse, how are you gong to show them as righteous I wonder. ( with me here to reveal you wrong immediately if you try.)



1 Timothy 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[Free]

I guess you agree with loving in word and tongue then, even though it is COMMANDED NOT TO


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

That has nothing to do with what I stated. You are falsely dichotomizing the facts continuously given by Jesus and the apostles and their actions. It isn't one or the other, it's both.

 

[Free]

Debate is the sign of men, ( carnal) the ungodly



Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

The Greek word translated as "debate" is best understood as strife and contentiousness, not reasoned discussion and persuasion, as the term has been used in modern times and to which I refer.

 

[Free]

Disputes of men are perverse, how are you gong to show them as righteous I wonder. ( with me here to reveal you wrong immediately if you try.)



1 Timothy 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Notice the two bolded portions--the second reveals the attitude of the first.

 

[Randy]

You think wrong, Jesus does not submit His will, He came to to the Fathers will, being His own will. ( He honours the Father to humble Himself as the Son.)

Then Jesus Christ no longer has to humble Himself, as upon death He got the name above ALL OTHER..



Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Sure He did as nobody in the right mind would want to be tortured to death.
He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

 

[gordon777]

Sure He did as nobody in the right mind would want to be tortured to death.
He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

The purpose you are omitting is this, Jesus shows how He feels the same feelings as us, but can overcome fear ( in perfect love.)

Because you are dull o hearing about Melchizedek, that is why you oppose knowing Christ is God, and in His right mind wants to be tortured to death, as for THAT CAUSE, He came to earth.




Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

 

[Randy]

The purpose you are omitting is this, Jesus shows how He feels the same feelings as us, but can overcome fear ( in perfect love.)

Because you are dull o hearing about Melchizedek, that is why you oppose knowing Christ is God, and in His right mind wants to be tortured to death, as for THAT CAUSE, He came to earth.




Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

I maintain Jesus has His own will. I have no other purpose. He "asked" the Father "if possible" not to be crucified. Yet NOT "His Will" but the "Fathers Will be done" Do I think Jesus already knew the answer before He asked? Yes Do I find fault in Him asking. No - I understand someone not wanting to die a agonizing painful death on the cross. We understand Jesus was also human. As a human He submitted to the Fathers will. Elsewhere He stated He always does what pleases the Father so He "remains" in the Fathers love.

I'll pass on your comment in calling me dull in regard to Melchizedek.

 

[gordon777]

I maintain Jesus has His own will. I have no other purpose. He "asked" the Father "if possible" not to be crucified. Yet NOT "His Will" but the "Fathers Will be done" Do I think Jesus already knew the answer before He asked? Yes Do I find fault in Him asking. No - I understand someone not wanting to die a agonizing painful death on the cross.

Just as the Apostles went gladly to their death, so too did the Son of God.


Acts 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

 

[gordon777]

We understand Jesus was also human. As a human He submitted to the Fathers will. Elsewhere He stated He always does what pleases the Father so He "remains" in the Fathers love.

I'll pass on your comment in calling me dull in regard to Melchizedek.

Jesus came not to do the will of a man, that is why He does the will of God( He is God) and returned to Heaven and always was in Heaven.

Christ could not please Himself, otherwise it cannot be that the reproaches of those that reproached the Lord fell on Him( the Lord Jesus Christ.)




Psalm 69:7 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.
8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.

Psalm 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

 

[gordon777]

You must be dull of hearing, we know God in the face and person of Jesus Christ, and you cannot show Jesus to have any will of His own, as He showed He never had( denying it is only you in denial of Him.)



2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Free]

You must be dull of hearing, we know God in the face and person of Jesus Christ, and you cannot show Jesus to have any will of His own, as He showed He never had( denying it is only you in denial of Him.)

In addition to Matt 26:39,42 (also Luke 22:42) We also have:

Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!”

These verse clearly show that Jesus had his own will. If you want to argue otherwise, then what Jesus said makes no sense. His will was always aligned with the Father’s will, though in Gethsemane there seems to be some uncertainty.

 

[gordon777]

In addition to Matt 26:39,42 (also Luke 22:42) We also have:

Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Joh 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!”

These verse clearly show that Jesus had his own will. If you want to argue otherwise, then what Jesus said makes no sense. His will was always aligned with the Father’s will, though in Gethsemane there seems to be some uncertainty.

You cant align wills, they are of the same, as we are too, same mind judgement Spirit etc, the Spirit of the Lord upon Jesus IS THE ONE WILL OF GOD( one Spirit.) and that same will of God is in us too, we cant have own own will.




Isaiah 11: 2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

 

[gordon777]

You will answer soon why you doctrine in life is to discredit the Son of God, and your looking away from how it is impossible for Christ born of the Spirit and anointed of the Spirit, to have any will different to the Spirit, that IS BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY GHOST.