Defending the existence of God

[Douglas Summers]

I do get where you are coming from and trying to relay. Truth is God does not need us to reason with others that he exists, he can and does reveal himself without us.

But I think he has asked us to be witnesses for him and to reveal him to others. I think Jesus did that "If you have seen me then you have seen the Father" Jesus rebuked those with a false concept of the Father and even talked to those who did not know the Father.

I have to be honest and say that we do need to reason with people that God exists. Not always with words but alway with actions, at times words do not affect and at times they do but always actions do.

What you posted is a witness of the Spirits priority in our lives. We do not have to be correct word for word to fellowship. But we do have to acknowledge the priority of the Spirit in our regeneration. I have posted my witness in the Last Post.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I really don't know what your point is here.

In what way are these videos "spiritless"?

Witnessing of the Holy Spirits work in This temple (for now our body) to someone who believes that we work from the flesh to please God, is much like trying to prove there is a God to those who do not believe in God. But I assure you, everyone knows their is a God. It is put in man to know of God. But a so called atheists will cry out (without even thinking about it) in a sudden act of a life threatening event.

 

[Free]

Witnessing of the Holy Spirits work in This temple (for now our body) to someone who believes that we work from the flesh to please God, is much like trying to prove there is a God to those who do not believe in God. But I assure you, everyone knows their is a God. It is put in man to know of God. But a so called atheists will cry out (without even thinking about it) in a sudden act of a life threatening event.

I still don't understand how that answers my question of how those videos are "spiritless". Please be as succinct as possible and avoid unnecessary verbiage.

 

[Free]

If i drop it i can't answer your questions..

You most certainly should be able to as my questions had absolutely nothing to do with Isa. 14:12:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ding-the-existence-of-god.66973/#post-1253010

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...he-existence-of-god.66973/page-2#post-1253063

 

[smaller]

The cosmological or first cause argument is legit. Christian theologians have used this for quite some time.

The moral argument is, imho, completely worthless. Happy to discuss particulars, among which alternatives the Godless ethics based (self centered) arguments are equally strong and perhaps far more applicable and compatible with the law of nature, survival of the fittest.

The contingency argument should be listed in the same category as the first cause argument. They are very closely related. The scriptures do support that the "Being" of God demands creation. A form of higher order first cause argument. Happy to elaborate.

I love the fine tuning argument. There are bolsters to this argument such as the infinite complexity of the universe which would far more lean to potential continuing complete chaos on an "infinite odds" basis, but from this infinite complexity comes organization, the chances of same happening is nearly if not completely impossible.

I don't care for the ontological argument at all. It fails when trying to apply infinite paradoxes. It also fails because logic is not capable of capturing all data of infinite data. Logic fails in the face of infinite complexity without even introducing Om Om Om God into the equations.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't use any of the above when witnessing God in Christ anyway.

 

[reba]

Admin here do not respond to this post in this thread...

Not necessarily directed at the last poster
Negativity for the sake of being negative is getting real tiresome...
The efforts to pull a thread off topic are also tiresome.

Post may be deleted

 

[Douglas Summers]

This is offensive towards the intent of my OP. The OP dealt with William Lane Craig's Reasonable Faith Animated Videos, defending the existence of God, which doesn't seem to be of interest to you.

However, accusing me of no 'ministry of the Spirit' and 'self will and ministering for Christ by the wisdom of the flesh' is not only flaming and goading me, it is blatantly false.

Sometimes we (all of us) come to a point where we are so knowledgeable about the Bible, and that we have pastored a church and has such responsibility that everything we teach should be taken as the gospel truth. We build up a position of authority over a congregation that hangs on every word we teach as though we take the place of Christ in His absence. but unfortunately, unless we are allowing the Spirit to do His work through us, we begin to think what ever we preach is of God because we thought of it and it sounded good and it is sticking up for God and that pleases you. So when someone challenges a pastor / teacher to not run ahead of the Lord, or let the Spirit do His work and his Gift through us, we get offended if someone brings up a discussion that goes against our personal teachings and thoughts that are ours, not Gods. I'm sorry you were offended. if the body of Christ can not follow after the Spirit with fellowship and compatibility, united in truth under God's will, then it is not a functioning body.

The Truth and strength of the Church is in the Spirit and prophecy of Christ alone, of whom we have been born into as brothers of Christ and son's of God. To me, visual aids and novels written about the Scriptures and Christ, by man's interpretation ,as aids to the Bible are vain. For the Bible already has given us everything a man needs to know of His creator and His amazing Grace. Testimonies and life experiences with our walk, and the intervention of Christ in our lives, along with miracles are needed. But someones idea of what the Bible means to them is vain. God will supply the increase.

 

[jasonc]

We aren't to use logic,syntax,grammar ,arguments for winning souls. Perhaps I should randomly type in letters and expect a lucid response in the same type of gibberish.God created the mind,renew it for Him.The bible doesn't a say to ignore reason, thought .Paul was also used apologetics .It's recorded in the book of Acts.we do reason with Jews.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I still don't understand how that answers my question of how those videos are "spiritless". Please be as succinct as possible and avoid unnecessary verbiage.

My verbiage was necessary, even as Christ spoke with many an example or parable to explain Spiritual matters. Once the disciples matured and had more faith from the Lord, they said, now we understand (John 16:29-30)

 

[Free]

My verbiage was necessary, even as Christ spoke with many an example or parable to explain Spiritual matters. Once the disciples matured and had more faith from the Lord, they said, now we understand (John 16:29-30)

But even Jesus would explain to his disciples when they asked. And you're not Jesus.

When people ask for clarity, it is considered impolite to not do so. I don't understand what is so hard about this.

 

[smaller]

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Philippians 1:18
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

The pretense here is not false preaching of Christ's as long as His name is mentioned that people might seek after Him, but the pretense is of the reason a false believer preaches for his own notoriety and fame. (Matt. 7:21-23)

 

[smaller]

The pretense here is not false preaching of Christ's as long as His name is mentioned that people might seek after Him, but the pretense is of the reason a false believer preaches for his own notoriety and fame. (Matt. 7:21-23)

I would agree that the material is philosophical theology, not Christian theology. If there is any difference, it is there. Philosophical theology deals with "proofs." Christian theology deals with faith in Christ, which faith is not a provable matter.

They are two different animals. I do however enjoy philosophical theology. You are correct to note the difference, and no, Jesus was not mentioned once in any of the clips.

 

[turnorburn]

What does that verse have to do with this discussion? How does that verse answer my questions?

I Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Hope this helps..

 

[turnorburn]

What do you think that verse is saying? Is it saying that all intelligent people can't enter the kingdom of heaven? Or is it saying that only ignorant people can enter the kingdom of heaven?

No nothing of the kind..

II Corinthians 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Its all about simplicity...

 

[reba]

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[Papa Zoom]

When talking about the fine tuning of the universe, Jesus needn't be mentioned. That isn't the purpose of the fine tuning argument. One must simply put a stone in someone's shoe to prepare them for what's to come (the sharing of the gospel). I know of atheists that once they came to understand that a Supreme Being must necessarily exist, they were then open to explore the claims of the Gospel. The stories are out there. People come to faith in a multitude of ways. For some, it's through scientific discoveries and the huge unanswered questions that result. Why is there something rather than nothing?

Roman's 1 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

This is always my fall-back verse in discussing with atheists and skeptics. I have to recognize that they are simply suppressing the truth of what they know. It is "plain" to all that God exists. To disbelieve isn't ignorance, it's wickedness. But their hearts are hardened.

I don't pound the Bible to prove the Bible. I don't pound the Bible to show God exists or that Jesus is God came to earth when I don't even have the person in front of me believing that a god of any kind, let alone the God of the universe, exists. I must first get them to consider that God is necessary. A necessary being.

IF I can get a person to see that God exists, even if it's just that they see it's a possibility, then I can tell them more about that God. This is what Paul did in Athens. Enter Jesus.

Unless you prepare the field, you can't plant the seed. It will not grow.

 

[Papa Zoom]

And to be clear, no one comes to faith apart from the Spirit of God. No argument will bring a person to faith apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.

We are but vessels. Arguments are but tools. But it's the Spirit that changes the heart.

 

[smaller]

When talking about the fine tuning of the universe, Jesus needn't be mentioned. That isn't the purpose of the fine tuning argument. One must simply put a stone in someone's shoe to prepare them for what's to come (the sharing of the gospel). I know of atheists that once they came to understand that a Supreme Being must necessarily exist, they were then open to explore the claims of the Gospel. The stories are out there. People come to faith in a multitude of ways. For some, it's through scientific discoveries and the huge unanswered questions that result. Why is there something rather than nothing?

Roman's 1 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

This is always my fall-back verse in discussing with atheists and skeptics. I have to recognize that they are simply suppressing the truth of what they know. It is "plain" to all that God exists. To disbelieve isn't ignorance, it's wickedness. But their hearts are hardened.

I don't pound the Bible to prove the Bible. I don't pound the Bible to show God exists or that Jesus is God came to earth when I don't even have the person in front of me believing that a god of any kind, let alone the God of the universe, exists. I must first get them to consider that God is necessary. A necessary being.

IF I can get a person to see that God exists, even if it's just that they see it's a possibility, then I can tell them more about that God. This is what Paul did in Athens. Enter Jesus.

Unless you prepare the field, you can't plant the seed. It will not grow.

When I was very young, I started working in the fields. Doing hard labor. My Dad put me on a "stone boat" when I was 6 years old, on the weekends, working his farm picking rocks, from sun up to sun down. No kidding. Over time I learned to "trick" my mind into loving labor. There was no way around having to labor. He taught me that. But in those fields, I saw those fields as "endless oceans" and me as the explorer, the conqueror, the overcomer, by my labor. And I learned to subdue those fields and myself in the process, by that sight of His creation. Somewhere about the age of 16, I knew I could work as hard as any man on earth, because of this "discipline" instilled in me.

When I was in my late 20's, after I had a 'born again' experience, I had what I call a 'vivification,' a "showing" of Gods Eternal Hands, while in the midst of a wheat field, ripe for harvesting. The wind was blowing across the prairies. I saw, with my own eyes, that every single grain of wheat, nearly countless in number, existed before my eyes. Every grain unique to only itself. Specially made and formed by our Creator. No 2 alike. And every stalk, the same in unique identity. And within this, every molecule, completely unique. As these stalks swayed in the wind, they never moved against each others in the same way twice. Every move was unique. The wind variations. Every molecule of air, also unique, to any particular moment. And angles of light, ever changing. The clouds, the same as in "ever different." And I contemplated ALL the wheat and harvests that had 'uniquely transpired' in His creation, from the beginning. And I stood before His creation in complete AWE of His Hands. Overwhelmed internally, by the Glory of His Workings. How much more was HIS OWN GLORY. I could not even imagine it when such glory stared me in the face. And then, it started to rain. And I cried, huge deep sobs, over this glory, the glory of His Hands. It was one of the most vivid moments of my life.

This today is part of how I witness. Between me and thee there is an infinite amount of divisible space. It is so infinite, it can not be numbered. We literally walk in a sea of infinity, even within our own bodies. I do not love creation, I love the Hand of the Creator who created it, because His Infinite Hands are upon all things, and shown in all things. We stop, and observe, such glory and can not measure His Glory above and beyond and in "all things."

Within all of this, God Himself has given us a small taste of LOVE. Everyone has had this "taste." This is my introduction to Jesus. Everyone has had but a small taste. Now look to The Creator of Love, and recognize, just taste, of His Eternal Love expressed in His Son, Jesus. His Own Love will come into you and live with you, in your heart, by 'faith.' This is the faith that gives us "perceptions" of God in Christ. I "assume" them into Gods Kingdom, by this introduction. Whether it sticks or not is not my call. I point to the obvious infinite, and that they themselves are already given their "taste" of His Finer things. Without our Creator, they would not be here, tasting of His Awes and His Wares. By faith in Christ, He Promises AMPLIFICATION of His Own Love in your heart.

An Endless Ocean of His Perfect Hands. Whether any man sees, it would not matter to me. I was caught up to into 'infinity' long long ago. No man can pull me back from what I've seen and tasted of, In Christ. It's not even possible. I walk, right now, in The Infinite One, The Son is in my heart. Bound in flesh, yet Free in Him.

 

[Papa Zoom]

When I was very young, I started working in the fields. Doing hard labor. My Dad put me on a "stone boat" when I was 6 years old, on the weekends, working his farm picking rocks, from sun up to sun down. No kidding. Over time I learned to "trick" my mind into loving labor. There was no way around having to labor. He taught me that. But in those fields, I saw those fields as "endless oceans" and me as the explorer, the conqueror, the overcomer, by my labor. And I learned to subdue those fields and myself in the process, by that sight of His creation. Somewhere about the age of 16, I knew I could work as hard as any man on earth, because of this "discipline" instilled in me.

When I was in my late 20's, after I had a 'born again' experience, I had what I call a 'vivification,' a "showing" of Gods Eternal hands, while in the midst of a wheat field, ripe for harvesting. The wind was blowing across the prairies. I saw, with my own eyes, that every single grain of wheat, nearly countless in number, existed before my eyes. Every grain unique to only itself. Specially made and formed by our Creator. No 2 alike. And every stalk, the same in unique identity. And within this, every molecule, completely unique. As these stalks swayed in the wind, they never moved against each others in the same way twice. Every move was unique. The wind variations. Every molecule of air, also unique, to any particular moment. And angles of light, ever changing. The clouds, the same. I stood before His creation in complete AWE of His Hands. Overwhelmed internally, by the Glory of His Workings. How much more was HIS OWN GLORY. I could not even imagine it when such glory stared me in the face. And then, it started to rain. And I cried, huge sobs, over this glory, the glory of His Hands. It was one of the most vivid moments of my life.

This today is part of how I witness. Between me and thee there is an infinite amount of divisible space. It is so infinite, it can not be numbered. We literally walk in a sea of infinity, even within our own bodies. I do not love creation, I love the Hand of the Creator who created it, because His Infinite Hands are upon all things, and shown in all things. We stop, and observe, such glory.

Within all of this, God Himself has given us a small taste of LOVE. Everyone has had this "taste." This is my introduction to Jesus. Everyone has had but a small taste. Now look to The Creator of Love, and recognize, just taste, of His Eternal Love expressed in His Son, Jesus. His Own Love will come into you and live with you, in your heart, by 'faith.' This is the faith that gives us "perceptions" of God in Christ. I "assume" them into Gods Kingdom, by this introduction. Whether it sticks or not is not my call. I point to the obvious infinite, and that they themselves are already given their "taste" of His Finer things. Without our Creator, they would not be here, tasting of His Awes and His Wares.

An Endless Ocean of His Perfect Hands. Whether any man sees, it would not matter to me. I was caught up to into 'infinity' long long ago. No man can pull me back from what I've seen and tasted of, In Christ. It's not even possible.

That was very good. You're a good writer. Thanks for that!