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Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

Who says that is scripture?

That's just your personal, and presumably fallible, opinion
Or do you think you are infallible?

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


1 John 2:27 is scripture whether you believe it or not.
 
That would be true if your opinion was correct. But why should I believe your opinion since you say we all make mistakes?
Opinion is different from logic.
If humans are fallible and the Pope is human... the Pope is fallible.
That is not opinion... that is a logic.
So are you saying the RCC is not logical?
Or does the RCC back logic?
 
Who says that is scripture?

That's just your personal, and presumably fallible, opinion
Or do you think you are infallible?


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


Who taught you this passage was not scripture?
 
And the Pope makes mistakes just like the rest of us... even when making official proclamations?
In Protestantism, there is no body, organ or mechanism to declare - authoritatively - what is or is not the faith of Protestantism. Hence the reason you have so many different and competing sects.

When the pope declares something infallibly, he is stating with certainty what is or is not the faith of the Church.
 
Opinion is different from logic.
If humans are fallible and the Pope is human... the Pope is fallible.
That is not opinion... that is a logic.
So are you saying the RCC is not logical?
Or does the RCC back logic?

You said:

Fallible men were entrusted with an infallible doctrine.
That's an opinion


If you are alive today... you make mistakes... from pope to pauper... we all make mistakes.
You are implying that no-one can declare the truth. That's an opinion.
 
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


1 John 2:27 is scripture whether you believe it or not.
Can you prove it is an infallible statement.
If not then it is just your opinion that it is true.
 
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


Who taught you this passage was not scripture?

Can you prove it is scripture?
If not then it is just your opinion that it is scripture.
 
The covenant is made with God who reconciles all things to Himself whether things in heaven or earth through Jesus's blood shed on the cross.

Christ in us is the test to see if your in that faith Paul spoke of.
Faith and baptism are required for the new covenant

The Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
 
“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!


We must also suffer!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
 
Can you prove it is an infallible statement.
If not then it is just your opinion that it is true.

This is what the apostle John wrote to the Church, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


If your denomination doesn’t believe in scripture then that is between you and the Lord.


That’s why this thread is called defending the faith, because Catholicism doesn’t really use scripture.





JLB
 
Can you prove it is scripture?
If not then it is just your opinion that it is scripture.

The passage of scripture comes from 1 John 2:27.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27



If you reject this scripture as false then that’s between you and the Lord.


STATEMENT OF FAITH

Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.





JLB
 
Jesus is the Christ and is Lord and Martha's reply is not the same context as Mother of God. The Father is God. You believe the Holy Spirit is a person. So how is Mary their Mother rather than Martha's Lord?
It’s Elizabeth
Her Lord is Jesus Christ
Mary is His mother
Jesus is God
Mary is mother of God not by cause or source but by relationship
No human has ever had a family relationship with God accept Mary who has three
Daughter of the Father
Mother of the Son
Spouse of the Holy Spirit
 
In Protestantism, there is no body, organ or mechanism to declare - authoritatively - what is or is not the faith of Protestantism. Hence the reason you have so many different and competing sects.

When the pope declares something infallibly, he is stating with certainty what is or is not the faith of the Church.
As I asked... you have a fallible man making infallible statements that define what "faith" is?
How does that work that a mistake makes perfect... rough paraphrase... but how do you get infallibility out of fallibility?
 
The mystery of the triune God!
The father is God
The son is God
The spirit is God
But there are not three Gods but one!
The father is Lord
The son is Lord
The spirit is Lord
But there are not three Lords but one Lord!
Deut 6
 
It's just some unknown person's opinion.
Why should I believe it?

Because it’s the doctrine of Christ.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JLB
 
Mary is mother of God not by cause or source but by relationship
No human has ever had a family relationship with God accept Mary who has three
Daughter of the Father
Mother of the Son
Spouse of the Holy Spirit

Total blasphemy.
 
You are implying that no-one can declare the truth. That's an opinion.

No that is not what I am implying. What I am saying is the Apostles made mistakes and Jesus entrusted His infallible message/mission to weak and faulty humans.

You are building straw-men and that is a pastime of persons without real answers.
If you think I got it wrong... please explain your position... don't argue a position I didn't make.
 
As I asked... you have a fallible man making infallible statements that define what "faith" is?
How does that work that a mistake makes perfect... rough paraphrase... but how do you get infallibility out of fallibility?
Ah, I see what is going on. You are using the tired old straw man of conflating impeccability with infallibility. Catholics do not maintain that the pope is impeccable, that is, unable to sin. Infallibility does not mean a pope cannot commit a sin in his personal life. It is important not to confuse impeccability and infallibility. They are two totally different things.

I've posted this many times before, but I'll repeat it...

Infallibility is a negative gift, not a positive one. The word itself comes from two Latin words meaning "not to be mistaken." It is thus not a faucet where it can be turned on and truth starts pouring out. Rather, it is more like a levy. It prevents the river of truth from overflowing and turning into a swamp. This difference between a river and a swamp is a swamp has no banks. When the pope is clarifying, defining or defending an issue of faith or morals, and is doing so in his role as supreme head of the Church, and binding the faithful to his decision, he is declaring so infallibly with certainly as to what is or is not the faith of the Church.

For if there is no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the Christian faith, then Christianity becomes an entirely subjective religion. Each individual would therefore become his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He would thus decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself. This, of course, is contrary to the religion of the Logos, which is a religion of revelation; whereby man discovers truth and conforms his will to it.
 
You are taking the verse out of context JLB.

The Biblical way to hear the Good News was to hear it being preached not be reading a book and working it out oneself.
“But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?” (Rom 10:14).
All though Acts and Paul’s letters we hear about the word being preached.

This was not just for the apostolic age. Jesus says about the end times:
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. (Mt 24:14)

John, who wrote the text we are considering, records two promises that Jesus made to the apostles at the Last Supper. This was his final talk to them before his death and resurrection. He had been teaching them for 3 years and was soon to send them out on mission to take the gospel into the world where they would be facing new situations and new challenges.
He makes them two promises.
Firstly about the past – all he has taught them.
But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26).

Secondly about the future – to guide them in new situations
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (Jn 16:13)
And we can see how this guiding happened in Acts 1 (the choosing of Matthias as a successor to Judas), and in Acts 15 (the Council of Jerusalem)

Now we move to John’s letter, chapter 2. He is writing to Christians who he personally has catechised, taught them everything, taught them the truth. He addresses them as “my children” (vs 1) and “beloved” (vs 7). However they are in danger of being led astray by false teachers. That is the context. And we need to start at vs 20 not 24 to get the immediate context

20. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know.
Footnotes say some manuscripts say “you know everything” instead of you all know.
They know because John has taught them.

21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it… [because John has taught them].

24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you[what they have already been taught]. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Now vs 26 & 27 in this context:
26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you [John is concerned that they are being taught falsely].

27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you [because they have already been taught by John]; as his anointing teaches you about everything [that they have been taught], and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.
T
his is equivalent to the first promise Jesus made to the apostles. The Holy Spirit would bring to mind all the true teaching they had already received. That presupposes that they had already received true teaching. But you have to get that true teaching first. You cannot generate it from your own resources. You cannot reach the truth by starting from scratch, but only by receiving it from those who have already been taught it and can pass it on. Then when you are presented with false teaching, the Holy Spirit will bring to mind the truth that you have already been taught.

This where Martin Luther and the other reformers went wrong. They thought they could reject the teaching authority of the Church and start from scratch with just the Bible. And that is why Protestantism has fractured into thousands of denominations with many opposing doctrines.

The Bereans are sometimes used to prove that we should search the scriptures for the truth. And indeed we should, but to confirm the truth of what we have been taught. This is what the Bearans did. Paul taught them first, and then they searched the scriptures to confirm the truth of what he taught them.
LOL!
 
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