Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[jaybo]

Why does Jesus command that the successors of Moses in Matt 23:1 etc must be obeyed?

It might help if you quoted Scripture in context. Matthew 23:1-12, "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’s seat; therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it, but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on the shoulders of others, but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. [sounds like Catholic priests!] They do all their deeds to be seen by others, for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. [and wear ornate costumes] They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to have people call them rabbi. [or father!] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers and sisters. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father, the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted."

There is no better example in Scripture of the Catholic priesthood!

 

[jaybo]

Most scripture means what is says, I never said priest but the church has authority from Christ

Most Scripture? Which parts of Scripture don't mean what they say?

Romans 3:4, "By no means! Although every human is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written, “So that you may be justified in your words and you will prevail when you go to trial.”

"The church has authority from Christ" is true if, by the church you mean the body of Christ. As I have said before, there is no mention of the Catholic denomination in the entire Bible. If you are referring to the disciples, they were all Jews!

 

[jaybo]

I bind myself to scripture alone for you’re benefit! Charity

LOL!!! How condescending of you!

 

[jaybo]

I am glad you agree with these verses of scripture
Question
Is the word of God limited to scripture alone?

No, it is not. But it s not the province of a class of people who make the claim to be Catholic priests. God speaks to whomever He chooses, including all those who pray to Him for guidance and understanding.

 

[jaybo]

Already explained it

Explained what exactly? As I wrote earlier, the only person (other than the devil) whom Jesus called Satan was Peter! Matthew 16:23

Peter was one of the apostles and a seriously flawed man. Would Jesus actually give the keys to His kingdom to a person whom He called "Satan", and a stumbling block, and who denied Him three times? Of course not!

And after this happened, Peter made a fool of himself in Galatia, and was called for his behavior by Paul.

So the person whom you claim was the founder of your denomination was a seriously flawed man.

 

[donadams]

You have reached a new level of absurdity! "A fat sandwich man" contains no verb; there is nothing that has the word "makes". Why do write you write something so meaningless?

The church did not write the New Testament scriptures. People wrote the Scriptures (New and Old Testament) as they were inspired by God. Obvious!!!

The church founded by Christ
His apostles wrote it and have custody of it and all His merits till he returns

 

[jaybo]

Scripture says so!

Acts 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Not scripture alone!

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecyof the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Verses that contradict “sola scriptura”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15



The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority”

Deny’s the authority of God, Christ, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit!

Deny’s the ministry of Angels!
Acts 8:26

Deny’s the authority of the church (apostles) to write scripture!

Deny’s the divine tradition: Christ teaching the apostles in person.

Deny’s the power of the Holy Spirit: to guide the apostles into all truth, Jn 16:13 and to governing the church. And be witnesses for Christ. Acts 1:8

Deny’s the apostolic tradition:
Authority to define scripture:
Authority to interpret scripture:
Authority to teach the entire divine revelation.

Denys the authority other than the “Bible alone! Including
Divine authority
Apostolic authority
angelic authority
Civil authority
Parental authority

Total nonsense!!!

Acts 42 doesn't negate the value of Scripture. It was quoted extensively by Jesus Himself and the apostles. It's only your denomination that teaches that their credo and beliefs are more important than the very words of God!

And if you're actually going to quote Scripture (which you think is secondary to what your denomination teaches), then do so correctly, i.e., in context. " First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20-21 So the verse is clearly talking about the origin of true prophecy. Men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. Why are you motivated to distort the very words of God??? Taking a phrase out of context and applying it to people reading and understanding the Bible is madness!!! Do you think you are dealing with morons???

And you justifying the authority of the church by citing the apostles and applying it to your denomination is madness! There was no Catholic denomination when the Bible was written, so any mention of the church in the Bible was referring to the first believers. As I have said before, all the apostles were Jews, as were the great majority (by far) of the early believers. Jews, get it? Not Catholics!
The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority” does not deny the authority of God, Christ, and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! Whom do you think inspired every author of the Biblical "books"? The answer is obvious!!!

And if you are going to continue to debate, stop citing verses of the Bible (unless you can finally admit that the Bible is God's Word. Otherwise, you are citing an authority that you claim isn't an authority!!!

And your writing "we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15" are a) all out of context and b) are using the Bible as the authority, which directly contradicts your phony doctrine.

If you don't accept the Bible as the word of God, why do you hypocritically cite it as truth?

 

[jaybo]

Isa 22:21:22
Called father
Keys (jurisdictional authority)

Isaiah 20:22-25 (in context!), " “On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. [ Authority given to Eliakim to be a "father to the Jews -- only] I will place on his {Eliakim's -- only] shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open. I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his ancestral house. And they will hang on him the whole weight of his ancestral house [the OT Jews], the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. On that day, says the Lord of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way; it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will perish, for the Lord has spoken.”

He was a "father" to the OT Jews only. And in the New Testament, after Christ came, it clearly says "And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father, the one in heaven." So much for your denomination calling priests "father", going directly against what Jesus said!

 

[jaybo]

Is the church necessary for salvation?

Why only 12 the is universal more are needed as the church is worldwide

What does "Why only 12 the is universal more are needed as the church is worldwide" mean??? It is nonsensical!

 

[jaybo]

Scripture and Jesus say let your yes be yes! And your no be no!
Sat what you mean and mean what you say!
You say five solas but don’t meant it!
Are there only five or five hundred
Sola means alone
But you don’t mean alone
The doctrine of the “Bible alone” say alone, to the exclusion of all else!
The Bible is our “ONLY” authority!
Therefore God, Christ, the Holy Ghost, the church if apostles CANNOT BE AN AUTHORITY!

Holy Ghost is tradition English for Holy Spirit
6 of one
Half dozen of another
Same meaning

Are you out of your mind?

Your bizarre post is a meaningless rant!

For your education, the five "solas" state that Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone."

If you want to educate yourself (which I find doubtful!), you might want to read about the fives "solas" of the Protestant reformation (which saved Christ's church from the Catholic heresies!), here is an excellent article: https://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/the-five-solas-of-the-protestant-reformation.html

Here is a brief excerpt (with my emphases): "The Protestant Reformation of the 16th century changed Christianity forever. Roused to action by the corruption and abuses they saw in the Roman Catholic church of the time, visionary pastors and leaders like Martin Luther and John Calvin spearheaded a movement that transformed Christianity and eventually led to the emergence of the Protestant denominations that exist today.

The Reformers were guided by the conviction that the church of their day had drifted away from the essential, original teachings of Christianity, especially in regard to what it was teaching about salvation—how people can be forgiven of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and receive eternal life with God. The Reformation sought to re-orient Christianity on the original message of Jesus and the early church."

 

[donadams]

Where is the word Prime Minister? And where is Jesus applying a prophecy to Peter and not Himself?

Exactly... Why?

Common in the culture. You are stretching to say a change of name ALWAYS indicates mission or ministry.

No PM mentioned.

What confession? You keep mentioning this mysterious confession as if anyone gets what you mean.


What confession? Now the confession is the keys of the kingdom?

What confession?
You keep thinking that anyone is talking about a confession... you are the only one using the word confession.

Peter’s confession in Matt 16:17

The trinity is not found in scripture either but the concept is

 

[donadams]

Your reference says Jesus talked to His disciples and the multitudes.
So you are just mashing any old verse with your opinions?
Nothing in your reference about obey or Moses or a command.

They successors of Moses cos they sit in the seat (authority) of moses

Now why does Jesus command they be obeyed?

 

[donadams]

The Promise of the Father refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The day of Pentecost was about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5


Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33






JLB

Don’t recall water being poured out on them

 

[donadams]

You are not explaining your point very well.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

What Paul did was justified
But it was only a matter of discipline

 

[donadams]

?

Peter received the keys from christ

 

[jaybo]

Don Adams (and others) keep misinterpreting the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Here is what it actually means...

The Scriptures are our ultimate and trustworthy authority for faith and practice. This doesn't mean that the Bible is the only pl;ace where truth is found, but it does mean that everything else we learn about God and His world, and all other authorities, should be interpreted in light of Scripture. The Bible gives us everything we need for our theology.

Every word of the 66 books of the Bible is inspired by God's Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit also helps us to understand and obey Scripture.

(Except from "The Five Solas -- Points from the Past that Should Matter to You). (with my emphases)

That is what Sola Scriptura means, not what Don and others say it means!

 

[JLB]

Don’t recall water being poured out on them

Exactly, the day of Pentecost was about the baptism with the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:4-5



JLB

 

[donadams]

Not as you believe. We preach from the written testimony .And that testimony of the revelations of God given through Christ and His 12 were written down for future generations. That knowledge of the truth combined with the testimony of the Holy Spirit draws all those who can hear to Christ. And Jesus is the way to the Father. We feed off of Him. We live through Him.

What did Mathias or Thomas or Nathaniel or Andrew write?

 

[donadams]

We have everything we need from God.
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness

Only in his church the communion of saints

 

[donadams]

The Promise of the Father refers to the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The day of Pentecost was about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5


Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33






JLB

Explain Jn 3:5 water and spirit
Vs 22 they went and immediately baptized water baptism