Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[jaybo]

The sacrifice of Christ is eternal as the office of a priest is to offer sacrifice and Christ is an eternal priest heb 7:17

And again! LOL!!!

Sola scriptura!

 

[donadams]

I find it ludicrous that you claim that it is your priests who have the truth, and those who read the Bible -- God's word -- do not have the truth, then cite the Bible to prove your arguments. So, which is it? Can one rely on the Bible for the truth or your clergy? If the latter, as you claim, why do you cite Scripture to prove your assertions?

Bible yes with authentic interpretation of the church
Not the “Bible alone”

Verses that contradict “sola scriptura”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

 

[jaybo]

We are taking about a kingdom not your house
King
Prime minister (keys)
Other ministers

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his office let another take.

If Judas had an office how much more peter
Reference Matt 23:1-13
This authority was given to Peter and the apostles and Christ still would say they must be obeyed

And again! LOL!!!

Sola scriptura!

 

[donadams]

Are you serious?

a) You do have a denomination: the Catholic denomination. Are you going to deny Catholicism? Yes or no? If the latter, that is proof.

b) As are nonsensical statements such as "Others only claim to be in the body but are not". Who are you to determine who is in the body of Christ and who isn't? Be very, very careful about making such an assumption, as you will have to answer to the Lord for such a decision!

c) Then you write "The Bible yes but as the church authentically interprets it; The “Bible alone” no" and "How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith" and cite roughly 24 verses (by a quick count) to prove your point. That is beyond laughable!!!

d) Again, here is proof that you are entirely wrong when you say, ""How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith" 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work."

You are clearly deluded!!!

There is a difference between the doctrine of the “Bible alone” and the Bible with tradition

 

[jaybo]

This is your own personal interpretation. Or maybe the interpretation of someone who wants the power of the Prime Minister and so needs a justification for the power grab.

Where is this command from Christ for the rest of the Disciples to OBEY Peter?
And then how would Paul have the authority to challenge Peter on his bad behaviour?
Why was Paul not chastized for speaking back to Peter and calling him out?

Again, the only person (other than the devil) whom Jesus called Satan was Peter! Matthew 16:23

Peter was one of the apostles and a seriously flawed man. Just read about his hypocritical behavior in Galatia! Would Jesus actually give the keys to His kingdom to a person whom He called "Satan", and a stumbling block, and who denied Him three times? It's a joke!

 

[Paul Timothy]

Again, the only person (other than the devil) whom Jesus called Satan was Peter! Matthew 16:23

Peter was one of the apostles and a seriously flawed man. Just read about his hypocritical behavior in Galatia! Would Jesus actually give the keys to His kingdom to a person whom He called "Satan", and a stumbling block, and who denied Him three times? It's a joke!

That is my point, yes.

 

[jaybo]

You like Saul

Saul thought he was doing the will of God and acting righteously with correct faith!

But was actually acting from spiritual pride, presumption, and arrogance!

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Then the risen Christ appeared!
The blinding light of truth prevailed!

More Scripture? Did your priest interpret this for you? Will your priest interpret this Scripture for us? If not, why do you claim that ordinary people can't interpret the Bible correctly on their own?

And what are all those numbers? They are not part of the source texts, but were added later, so why do you include them? Did your priest teach you to do that? And why the odd Englyshe? Did Saul speaketh thusly?

 

[donadams]

I don't see any reference to prime minister here.
It reads like the key gives ability... I see nothing about authority.

That’s the nature of authority
The prime minister hold the keys of jurisdictional authority under the king and administers the kingdom on behalf of the king

Like Joseph under pharaoh

 

[Paul Timothy]

That’s the nature of authority
The prime minister hold the keys of jurisdictional authority under the king and administers the kingdom on behalf of the king

Like Joseph under pharaoh

But nothing in the references you provided mention jurisdictional authority, prime ministers, or Joseph.
I understand your point but you are not providing the Biblical proofs that your idea is valid in this situation.

 

[donadams]

Are you serious?

a) You do have a denomination: the Catholic denomination. Are you going to deny Catholicism? Yes or no? If the latter, that is proof.

b) As are nonsensical statements such as "Others only claim to be in the body but are not". Who are you to determine who is in the body of Christ and who isn't? Be very, very careful about making such an assumption, as you will have to answer to the Lord for such a decision!

c) Then you write "The Bible yes but as the church authentically interprets it; The “Bible alone” no" and "How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith" and cite roughly 24 verses (by a quick count) to prove your point. That is beyond laughable!!!

d) Again, here is proof that you are entirely wrong when you say, ""How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith" 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work."

You are clearly deluded!!!

Sola scriptura the Bible is our only authority that excludes God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, the church, and the apostles
So you must reject scripture that says the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5;14and that we MUST HEAR the church Matt 18:17and the church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15
And acts 2:42 they held to the doctrine of the “Bible alone” oops it says they held to the doctrine of the apostles! Oh my!

 

[Randy]

Sola scriptura the Bible is our only authority that excludes God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, the church, and the apostles
So you must reject scripture that says the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5;14and that we MUST HEAR the church Matt 18:17and the church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15
And acts 2:42 they held to the doctrine of the “Bible alone” oops it says they held to the doctrine of the apostles! Oh my!

If one of the 12 were alive on earth I would listen to them.
According to Jesus, who by the way still "Lives", no one is in Him apart from the "Father".
According to Jesus who is the mediator of the new covenant God established in His blood no one comes to the Father except by Him.

Therefore, I point/steer others to Christ and promote Him not any church. The testimony states we live through Him not the church. That the life in Him is the light to man. Those who feed off Him never die.

 

[jaybo]

Sola scriptura the Bible is our only authority that excludes God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost, the church, and the apostles
So you must reject scripture that says the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5;14and that we MUST HEAR the church Matt 18:17and the church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15
And acts 2:42 they held to the doctrine of the “Bible alone” oops it says they held to the doctrine of the apostles! Oh my!

Are you out of your mind?

The Bible OBVIOUSLY does not exclude God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost!), the church, or the apostles. Everyone of those people (plus the church) are mentioned many, many times throughout the Bible. If you took off your blinders and read the Bible you wouldn't make such an absurd statement.

BTW, if the Bible is not the written source of the truth, why do you quote it all the time? LOL!!!

The rest of your post is so absurd it doesn't deserve a reply.

 

[donadams]

Including references any time you are quoting a passage is just good form.

I stand corrected

 

[donadams]

The promise you referenced in acts was in Acts 2:39 and refers to the promise of the Father, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is done by Jesus not man.


Please show us the verse whete the word sacraments is used in context of rituals.

Using a word that is not "sacrament" and then taking that word out of context is a gross misrepresentation of scripture.

If you can't find the word sacrament in the bible then please dont use it in a discussion concerning doctrine.

Man made words are used to prop up man made doctrine.




JLB

How do we know what it refers too?
Water baptism or baptism of the spirit?
Same question referring to Jn 3:5?

 

[donadams]

There is a s no way for you to know the authentic interpretation of scripture!

Example:

What is the authentic interpretation of this statement?

A fat sandwich man!

Is it a fat man who makes sandwiches?
Or a man who makes fat sandwiches?

There is no way for you to know, only the one who wrote it knows and the church wrote the New Testament scriptures!

 

[donadams]

Jaybo,
This is the Apologetics Forum.
Defending one's faith falls into apologetics.

It's a serious forum for serious discussion.
Scripture must be used for support of one's convictions.

Also, the thread must remain civil.
Another's denomination should not be demeaned and called nasty names. Although a person can certainly disagree with their doctrine.

A little of the above has been going on by a couple of members.

I hope it stops.

Christians are supposed to practice the virtues of Jesus Christ!
Humility, meekness, charity Matt 11:29

 

[donadams]

I was just responding to your post. So if you keep your posts short... so will I.
Keep it simple and I will be simple right back at you.

You the man!

 

[jaybo]

Example:

What is the authentic interpretation of this statement?

A fat sandwich man!

Is it a fat man who makes sandwiches?
Or a man who makes fat sandwiches?

There is no way for you to know, only the one who wrote it knows and the church wrote the New Testament scriptures!

You have reached a new level of absurdity! "A fat sandwich man" contains no verb; there is nothing that has the word "makes". Why do write you write something so meaningless?

The church did not write the New Testament scriptures. People wrote the Scriptures (New and Old Testament) as they were inspired by God. Obvious!!!

 

[jaybo]

If anyone or any institution teaches any doctrine that is not in agreement with the Bible -- God's word -- then it is a false doctrine. The Catholic denomination (which is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture) teaches one false doctrine after another. Much of the teaching is an invention of men designed to keep the myth of their invincibility active. As an example, there is no mention of the Pope in the entire Bible. The Catholic denomination is headquartered in Rome, the cradle of the civilization that killed Jesus Christ and destroyed God's temple. Mary is exalted as a sinless, perpetual virgin, even though there is nothing anywhere in Scripture that supports either allegation.

Just as God found it necessary to establish a new faith, founded on the failure of Israel to live by His commands and seek their own righteousness, so He also found it necessary for the Reformation to break away from the failures of the Catholic denomination to live by His words and seek their own righteousness. God will not be defeated by false religion.

 

[donadams]

And that act on the cross was already accomplished. The Spirit enables as those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. The Father is not handcuffed by sacraments. Such enabled through grace by faith receive Christ. As in saved by grace through faith. I have a relationship with Christ. The Spirit of Christ is in me. I know Him and He knows me. In Christ is NO sin. He is the only way to the Father not all that red tape you keep posting as a means of salvation as in the church. I am heavily in favor of stating the importance of that relationship with Christ as the only thing needed. Christ in us and that is received by faith in Him. As I stated there is more depth shown as obeying His commands to remain in Him. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to your neighbor and fulfills the law. In love the moral law of God is kept.

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

We have union with Christ and there God and His communion of saints

The sacrifice of Christ is complete but continually offered to the father

Mal 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

A pure offering:
A Clean oblation:
An Unbloody sacrifice:

once for all:

once bloody on the cross and for all time unbloody sacrifice, pure offering or clean oblation.

Jesus Christ at the last supper ordained the apostles as priests in the order of melchisedec, to offer His eternal sacrifice as he commanded them; do this in memory of me.

Do this in remembrance of me!

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.