Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[Mungo]

The scriptures teach us the Word became flesh… a little lower than the angels.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

As a flesh and blood man He was not omnipresent, able to be everywhere. He had to walk and travel from place to place.

The Unlimited Omnipresent God Who is Spirit, became flesh; limited in His capacity as man, as flesh and blood.

The Immortal became mortal.

God is Spirit.

The Spirit of Christ is omnipresent;

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

The Spirit of Christ dwells in all of His people at once, being Omnipresent.


In His limited capacity as a flesh and blood man, He no longer had the unlimited omnipresent capacity as God.


So no, Mary did not give birth to Spirit. She gave birth to the flesh and blood Man Jesus Christ who became limited, even to confining Himself to the limited capacity of the womb of a virgin.





JLB

In Jesus God is both Spirit and flesh.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
One person , two natures.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Jn 1:1).
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

The Word, the second person of the Trinity, didn't stop being the Word when he took on human nature.

 

[JLB]

In Jesus God is both Spirit and flesh.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
One person , two natures.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Jn 1:1).
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

The Word, the second person of the Trinity, didn't stop being the Word when he took on human nature.

Yes the Word BECAME flesh.

He was the one thing, Spirit and became flesh; a little lower than the angels.


Is God a little lower than the angels?



JLB

 

[Mungo]

Yes the Word BECAME flesh.

He was the one thing, Spirit and became flesh; a little lower than the angels.


Is God a little lower than the angels?



JLB

In Jesus God is both Spirit and flesh.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
One person , two natures.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Jn 1:1).
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

The Word, the second person of the Trinity, didn't stop being the Word when he took on human nature.

Are you denying that Jesus is God?

 

[JLB]

In Jesus God is both Spirit and flesh.

Jesus is 100% God and 100% man
One person , two natures.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Jn 1:1).
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

The Word, the second person of the Trinity, didn't stop being the Word when he took on human nature.

Are you denying that Jesus is God?

Yes the Word became flesh.

The Word Who was God, was Spirit, and then became flesh.


Jesus‘s flesh was 100% man, therefore His flesh was not God, but Man.


Surely you understand this. The Man part of Jesus Christ was not God, but Man.

Mary gave birth to His flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

God is Spirit. Mary gave birth to flesh, the Man Jesus Christ.


Are you trying to teach us that the part of Jesus that was 100% man, was really God?


Mary certainly wasn’t the Mother of God.

She was the mother of the man Christ Jesus.




JLB

 

[Mungo]

Yes the Word became flesh.

The Word Who was God, was Spirit, and then became flesh.


Jesus‘s flesh was 100% man, therefore His flesh was not God, but Man.


Surely you understand this. The Man part of Jesus Christ was not God, but Man.

Mary gave birth to His flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

God is Spirit. Mary gave birth to flesh, the Man Jesus Christ.


Are you trying to teach us that the part of Jesus that was 100% man, was really God?


Mary certainly wasn’t the Mother of God.

She was the mother of the man Christ Jesus.




JLB

You didn't answer my question.

Are you denying that Jesus is God?

 

[JLB]

You didn't answer my question.

Are you denying that Jesus is God?

I answered your question.

Jesus’s flesh is not God; it’s the man part of Him.

If He is part man, then that part of Him is not God.

God is Spirit. God became flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

The Word became flesh.

Mary gave birth to the man Jesus Christ.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5


Notice this verse does not say… one Mediator between God and men, the God Jesus Christ.


Now answer my question:

Do you believe God is a little lower than the angels?




JLB

 

[Mungo]

I answered your question.

Jesus’s flesh is not God; it’s the man part of Him.

If He is part man, then that part of Him is not God.

God is Spirit. God became flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

The Word became flesh.

Mary gave birth to the man Jesus Christ.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5


Notice this verse does not say… one Mediator between God and men, the God Jesus Christ.


Now answer my question:

Do you believe God is a little lower than the angels?




JLB

You actually dodged my question.
Is Jesus God - yes or no? Stop prevaricating.

Like Nestorius you seem to be trying to divide Jesus into two persons.
Jesus is one person who is both God and man.

Mary gave birth to a person, not a lump of flesh.
The person she gave birth to is both God and man, hence the term Theotokos -God bearer.

In his humanity Jesus became lower than the angels but he was still God.
I quote from gotquestions.org - a Protestant site:
by taking upon Himself sinless flesh in the Incarnation Jesus was made “a little lower than the heavenly beings.” Jesus “made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant” when He took on human flesh (Philippians 2:7). The Lawgiver placed Himself in subjection to the Law (Galatians 4:4). He who was rich became poor for our sakes (2 Corinthians 8:9). “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28). Angels marvel at the Incarnation and desire to look into the gospel (1 Peter 1:12).

Being made a “little lower than the angels” and taking on a body eternally did not in any way diminish the deity of Christ. Jesus never ceased to be God; He simply showed the meekness and condescension of God. After the Incarnation, He was the God-man.
(https://www.gotquestions.org/little-lower-angels.html)

 

[JLB]

You actually dodged my question.
Is Jesus God - yes or no? Stop prevaricating.

Maybe you are having trouble understanding the plain words of my post, just as you have trouble understanding the plain words of scripture.


Is man, God or human?

Obviously the answer is man is human.

Jesus became a human; flesh.

Mary gave birth to flesh, the human aspect of Jesus.

Mary did not give birth to God; God is Spirit.

Flesh is not God.

Mary gave birth to flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

God is Spirit. The Word was God before the foundation of the world, and He created all things.

The Word did not have His origin with Mary.

The man Jesus Christ, did have His origin with Mary.

Mary did not give birth to Spirit.

Human flesh is not God.

Jesus had to become flesh and take on the nature of a human, so He could die for our sins.

His flesh died and was resurrected from the dead.

God is not flesh.

The Spirit of Christ is God; The Spirit of the LORD.




JLB

 

[Mungo]

Maybe you are having trouble understanding the plain words of my post, just as you have trouble understanding the plain words of scripture.


Is man, God or human?

Obviously the answer is man is human.

Jesus became a human; flesh.

Mary gave birth to flesh, the human aspect of Jesus.

Mary did not give birth to God; God is Spirit.

Flesh is not God.

Mary gave birth to flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

God is Spirit. The Word was God before the foundation of the world, and He created all things.

The Word did not have His origin with Mary.

The man Jesus Christ, did have His origin with Mary.

Mary did not give birth to Spirit.

Human flesh is not God.

Jesus had to become flesh and take on the nature of a human, so He could die for our sins.

His flesh died and was resurrected from the dead.

God is not flesh.

The Spirit of Christ is God; The Spirit of the LORD.




JLB

You are still evading my question.
Is Jesus God - yes or no? Stop prevaricating.

 

[jasonc]

The idea of the hyperstatic union isn't a heresy .

It's part of the Trinity . Jesus fully God ,fully man .

 

[Mungo]

The idea of the hyperstatic union isn't a heresy .

It's part of the Trinity . Jesus fully God ,fully man .

I agree, but I suspect JLB does not.

 

[Randy]

The idea of the hyperstatic union isn't a heresy .

It's part of the Trinity . Jesus fully God ,fully man .

I guess you mean the hypostatic union.
Not found in the NT and very mysterious and not explained. A thought-up concept.
A rational soul + human body + Divine nature not separated in 2 persons but joined as 1 person fully human and fully God.

But Jesus Himself attributed the Fathers works He performed not by some mysterious union in natures as just Himself but by the Father living in Him and He in the Father. As He defined oneness. The Father is another person in Him and is as Jesus Himself states the only true God and is rightfully stated as "unbegotten".

I state to you the Son who was, (His spirit), was in that human body and the eternal life found in Him is the Father.

 

[jasonc]

I guess you mean the hypostatic union.
Not found in the NT and very mysterious and not explained. A thought-up concept.
A rational soul + human body + Divine nature not separated in 2 persons but joined as 1 person fully human and fully God.

But Jesus Himself attributed the Fathers works He performed not by some mysterious union in natures as just Himself but by the Father living in Him and He in the Father. As He defined oneness. The Father is another person in Him and is as Jesus Himself states the only true God and is rightfully stated as "unbegotten".

I state to you the Son who was, (His spirit), was in that human body and the eternal life found in Him is the Father.

Jesus lied when he said if I lay down my life ,I will pick it up again?

Where in the bible does it say Jesus ceased being God ?
He set it aside but never stopped.acted according to the Father's plan but how does an immortal being die?

Can the Trinity simply create a fourth person ?

 

[Randy]

Jesus lied when he said if I lay down my life ,I will pick it up again?

Where in the bible does it say Jesus ceased being God ?
He set it aside but never stopped.acted according to the Father's plan but how does an immortal being die?

Can the Trinity simply create a fourth person ?

No He didn't lie - any of His works in that regard are by the authority received from His God and Father. He wills the Spirit acts.
The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

(His life) Why does He need to be given authority?
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

He didn't lie.
He didn't testify the works performed were by your God/man concept but by Him and the Father as One and He is NOT the Father.
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

As I stated. He didn't lie.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The eternal life in Him is the Father and He's not talking about life in the flesh. As people who are not in Christ live in the flesh.
He didn't lie.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is just for your consideration. You can throw it out the window if you desire. I have no need for you to accept my understanding nor desire to spend 100's of posts defending it.

 

[jasonc]

No He didn't lie - any of His works in that regard are by the authority received from His God and Father. He wills the Spirit acts.
The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

(His life) Why does He need to be given authority?
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

He didn't lie.
He didn't testify the works performed were by your God/man concept but by Him and the Father as One and He is NOT the Father.
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

As I stated. He didn't lie.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The eternal life in Him is the Father and He's not talking about life in the flesh. As people who are not in Christ live in the flesh.
He didn't lie.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is just for your consideration. You can throw it out the window if you desire. I have no need for you to accept my understanding nor desire to spend 100's of posts defending it.

In other words you deny the Trinity

 

[Randy]

In other words you deny the Trinity

In part yes.
I agree in part -Jesus begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made.

 

[jasonc]

In part yes.
I agree in part -Jesus begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made.

The he is God .not made ,eternal and having all of that nature .

You overthink the Trinity .once I was anti Trinity.

 

[JLB]

fully man .

The man "part" of Him is obviously not God.

That "part" of Him is His flesh.

If God BECAME flesh, then by definition what He became is not God.

God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You are still evading my question.
Is Jesus God - yes or no? Stop prevaricating.

Everyone here sees your blatant denial. But that is what I have come to accept as your position. You just simply deny the truth of the scriptures in favor of your denominational "doctrine".


The man "part" of Him is obviously not God.

That "part" of Him is His flesh.

If God BECAME flesh, then by definition what He became is not God.

God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh.

Do you believe God became a man, or do you believe God became God?




JLB

 

[jasonc]

The man "part" of Him is obviously not God.

That "part" of Him is His flesh.

If God BECAME flesh, then by definition what He became is not God.

God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh.



JLB

When Jesus is described post death what is mentioned?

His wounds

I'm hardly pro catholic.even the reformed Calvinist use my word .

Mary was the mother of Jesus .

If Jesus is only his flesh .you have a problem as well he is still called that name .

She didn't make him but bore him