Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
I'm not looking for anything.
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
-
-
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
But in Luke 15 we have this:
Luke 15:10 , "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." The Bible doesn't say that the angels rejoice, although I'm certain they do. It says that there's rejoicing "in the presence of the angels." I believe this refers to Christians already in Heaven, i.e., the family in Heaven.
Ephesians 3:14 and 15 states, "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." There's a family in Heaven and earth, i.e., some are alive in Heaven and others are still in the flesh on earth. Departed saints compose the "family in Heaven."
Stephen is on of those family members in heaven.
"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God... And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." —Acts 7:56,59
Moses had been Physically dead for 1500 years or so and we have this.....
Matthew 17:1-4 reads, "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias." Moses had been dead (Deuteronomy 34:5); yet, despite being dead, he is able to speak to Jesus. Clearly, Moses' was conscious. The same is true of Elijah, who centuries earlier had been caught up in a whirlwind (2nd Kings 2:11). Elijah was still conscious.
From what I gather, this thread has become bogged down in a sub point about the make up of a human being. While a very good point to be addressed in another thread devoted to it, since man cannot go to hell or be resurrected for that matter if he is only a body. There would only be resuscitation or restoration of the body.
But getting back to the main point (topic) of the thread...
But getting back to the main point (topic) of the thread...
...presuming the point that we are more than just our bodies is agreed upon...
Jesus, according to scripture, died on the cross and his Spirit left his body. And the OP is did Jesus in his Spirit go to hell / sheol / hades between the time of his death and his resurrection?
Jesus, according to scripture, died on the cross and his Spirit left his body. And the OP is did Jesus in his Spirit go to hell / sheol / hades between the time of his death and his resurrection?
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
You said, you believe, that indicates that the Scriptures don’t actually state that. The passage doesn’t say anything about humans or Christians. One can only speculate.
Your position assumes that people can exist while they are dead. That is what is being considered. This doesn’t say anything about souls or spirits or bodies, nothing like that it simply says family, a family named. It seems Paul is Paul speaking of a lineage kept in Heaven. That could be the Book of Life, no?
He’s asking Jesus to receive his spirit. We know that man has a spirit in him that belongs to God. That spirit returns to God and Stephen returns to the dust. There’s no problem here.
It was a vision.
KJV Matthew 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Mat 17:9 KJV)
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
I think it does deal with the OP in that if a man cannot exist without a body then Jesus was in the grave during that time and not traveling as spirit or soul apart from a body.
jeff77
Member
- Dec 27, 2012
- 2,190
- 329
Would it be possible that Jesus was in heaven during that time as well? Since Jesus and God are the same person and God is omnipresent.
chessman
Member
- Feb 5, 2013
- 4,653
- 337
If it were "a lineage" that is the Book of Life, then where's the same "lineage/book" kept on Earth?
It says_______ in Heaven and on Earth. There's one Book of Life (not two) and it taint kept on Earth.
You say this passage doesn't say anything about souls or spirits of man. Technically, these words aren't there. But it does speak of our inner person.
Ephesians 3:14-16
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
14 On account of this, I bend my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named,16 that he may grant you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person,
"inner man" (NASB)
"Inner being" (NIV)
The text does say there is an "inner man" or "inner being" to which His Spirit strengthens us.
If man were merely dust plus His Spirit in us, what's up with His Spirit strengthing His Spirit in us? That doesn't make sense. Now His Spirit strengthing our spirits (our inner being, or inner person), that makes sense of this text.
And in verse 18 in order that you may be strong enough to grasp together with all the saints
What's up with dead saints grasping knowledge?
Or: you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
If man is dust plus His Spirit (not our own spirit), shouldn't all of us (even the un-saved for that matter) already be full of God? What is it that's being filled, the stronger we get in Christ? Dust or His Spirit getting stronger?
I don't buy that.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
I don't believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person, so I would have to answer no.
jeff77
Member
- Dec 27, 2012
- 2,190
- 329
Ok, different person, personality or form but the same being?
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
Hi Chessman,
The lineage or family is named in Heaven and on earth. The Book of Life contains the names of all believers, both those who have died and those who are alive.
When Paul speaks of the inner man he is doing so to people who are alive. You said you don't buy what I said, but here's the problem. No one has presented anything that "Teaches" that man is anything other than a body and the breath of God. Everyone arguing the opposing point is drawing "inferences" from certain passages of Scripture. They are coming to the text with the presupposition that man can exist after his physical body dies. I not coming to the text presupposing that man is only a body and the breath/spirit of God, I'm drawing that directly out of the text. That's a huge difference. It's one thing to say the Bible teaches zxy and then show exactly where the Bible specifically gives the creation of man and the components with which God created him. It's another to say the Bible teaches xyz and then give an inference. An inference is a conclusion drawn from certain facts. The inference may be correct it may not. If it contradicts other Scripture passages it definitely is wrong.
Look at the passages you posted from the perspective that when man dies he's dead. Take verse 18 for example, if one believes that the dead know nothing and that they cannot praise God one is going to look at verse 18 and know that Paul means living people and is not including dead people in that statement.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
chessman
Member
- Feb 5, 2013
- 4,653
- 337
I'm actually open to the idea. It would be a change for me, I admit, but I'd like to think I'm open to any Biblically sound argument. Even if it conflicts with my current understanding.
But let me get this straight. When the text says "families in Heaven" and you say it means a book in Heaven, you do that with 0% presuppotion? Umm, I don't buy that either. Sorry. I was merely commenting/disagreing that the text was speaking of a book.
And it's not just that point in the text, either. I made several points about this text's message, not just the fact that families cannot be infered to be a book. But one point at a time:
You know of a Scripture that says the Book of Life resides on Earth? Else, you seem to presuppose that's true.
Your suggestion was that it was a reference to THE Book of Life. (Again when the text says families. (i assume you know the Greek/etymology for the actual word translated familes). It's nothing like a book. More like Fathers(real people) or indeed their family lineage.
http://biblehub.com/greek/3965.htm
Short Definition: a family, tribe
Definition: lineage, ancestry; a family, tribe.
one book (a singular object) can't be in Heaven and on Earth at the same time. That was my first point.
I will focus in on the vision part.
So the Lord Jesus cons Peter,James and John into thinking that Moses and Elijah are actually speaking in this vision. When in actuality they are unconscious in a grave?
So after the Son of man has risen they can tell this vision to the world. So in retelling of this vision, these three men are misleading people? Moses and Elijah really were not in the vision because they are unconscious in a grave somewhere?
Why in the world would the Lord Jesus put Moses and Elijah(Speaking none the less) in a vision to these three men if they were actually inanimate in some Grave?
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation
through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we
are [present tense] awake [alive] or asleep [dead], we may live
together with Him." (I Thess. 5:9-10, NASB)......................
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
Where is the encouragement for a Christian if we will be separated from eternal life in Christ. Eternal doesn't mean eternal in that case.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
Hi Chessman,
When I said I wasn't coming to the text with presuppositions I was referring to the Genesis text 2:7 That is a clear statement in Scripture, I'm not brining anything to that statement. I didn't mean I have no presuppositions at all when I approach the Scriptures. Everyone has presuppositions, the question is what do we do with them? I used to argue just like others for the eternal torment position, however, when I looked at the issued I decided that I would put my biases aside and simply let the text speak. Whatever it said it said. However, all of the passages that dealt with the issue had to be reconciled, I couldn't just pretend some didn't exist and I couldn't hold a view knowing that there were passage that seemed to flatly deny the position I was holding.
I think one problem we face is not taking into account that we are reading a 1st century document that was written in an Eastern culture. We
re a 21st century culture living in a Western culture. Just think how differently the Muslim countries think than we do and they are living at the same time. We're almost 2000 years removed from the NT text. Take for instance that the Jews paid tithes to Melchizedek while in the loins of Abraham. Western people don't think like that.
There are two ways we can approach the families in Heaven. We can approach it from the position that people are live after they die and conclude that Paul is saying there are people in Heaven who are alive. Or, we can approach it from the position that the dead are dead and not alive. Supposed we translated the passage a lineage in Heaven, would that necessitate that the people of that lineage are alive in Heaven? I don't think so being that Scripture gives lineages and says the people are dead.
So, we can come to different conclusions based on the presuppositions we bring to the text. Firstly, since the text could be understood either way, it proves neither way. But this is the problem we need to look at all of the passages while setting aside our presuppositions and look all of the texts that deal with the subject, not just a few that seem to support our view.
No, there is on book, but that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that their names or lineage is in Heaven and not people. I pointed to the Book of Life as an example of names written in Heaven, I wasn't saying this passage is speaking of the book of life.
This definition you've posted gives both a lineage and ancestry as a definition in addition to family. One thing I think that causes confusion is that I don't think a lot of Christians take into account translator bias. I'm not saying translators purposely mistranslate, however, in order to translate something you have to know what it says. So, however, a translator understands a passage of Scripture is how he will translate it. If he doesn't understand it correctly then he's not going to translate it correctly. You had the Catholic church who had control over the Scriptures in the west for about 1000 years. They pretty much dictated church doctrine. Then you had the Reformers who were former Catholics and had been brought up in the Catholic doctrines. They threw off some of those doctrines but not all of them. So, if they believed that there was a disembodied consciousness, which they did, how would they interpret passages such as the rich man and Lazarus or Paul's statement in 2 Cor 5 absent from the body? They already believed it before they made their translations so the translations are going to tend that way. It doesn't have to be intentional it's what they believed. I think the real question is why didn't the Jews believe that? After all they were the ones who had the Scriptures. They had them for several thousand years. If the Scriptures taught that there was a disembodied consciousness surely they should have believed in one. Who understood the Hebrew texts better than they did? No one, yet neither the Sadducees nor the Pharisees believed in a disembodied consciousness.
It wasn't the book that was in both places, it was the lineage.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
Jesus said there some with Him that would not see death until they saw His kingdom come with power, six days later Peter, James, and John saw the vision. The purpose of the vision was to confirm the prophetic words as Peter says in his letter.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (2Pe 1:16-18 KJV)
They were given a vision to confirm the word of the Prophets about the coming kingdom.
Here is the same word used of Peter's vision.
8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, (Act 10:8-17 KJV)
Do you suppose that there was a literal sheet coming down from Heaven with all kinds of four footed beasts. If there was it seems everyone else would have seen it too. The three men were arriving as Peter was seeing the vision.
On a side note, Moses and Elijah couldn't have been literally resurrected at this point because Jesus had not been. If these were disembodied consciousnesses, how did Peter, James, and John see them, one can't see a disembodied consciousness. Also, Why did they want to make them a tabernacle if they were disembodied consciousnesses? Another point is that Jesus wasn't a disembodied consciousness and from the account the apostles seem to perceive them as men.
The encouragement is in the resurrection. Notice Paul's words in verse 9, God has not appointed them to wrath but for obtaining salvation. His words indicate a future salvation. That is the resurrection.
You asked about eternal life, do all men die? If so how do they have eternal life?
chessman
Member
- Feb 5, 2013
- 4,653
- 337
Okay, then i misunderstood your post's point about The Book.
I can see a lineage (or a family) in this text (both in Heaven and Earth). A lineage in Heaven AND a lineage on Earth. That one phrase, could go either way, I suppose. (Now that you clarified it's not speaking about a book). I'm not sure why you even mentioned a book in the first place. I guess to help explain what Paul could be meaning by something being in Heaven.
I'm glad you can see the problem with a book being his meaning. Whatever he meant (families, lineage, fathers), has to be both in Heaven and Earth.
But moving on:
16 that he may grant you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person,
Given a 50/50 chance that he means 1) spirits/souls/inner beings of the saints being in Heaven or 2) nothing of a dead saint being in heaven, do you think he means the "you" in verse 16 to reference only the living saved? Or could he mean his prayer for strength to be not just for those on Earth but also perhaps those in Heaven?
I mean, if we come at this text with an open mind, it reads to me as if He's actually praying for both the living and the dead's strengthening. The living being on Earth(of course) but the dead saints being in Heaven (that is if he didn't mean their lineage written in a book).
His point: 4 so that you may be able when you read to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ5 (which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit).
I mean, he's talking bout some pretty deep stuff here. He has zero problem with the fact that their ideas might need an update.
By the way, what's up with the Spirit revealing mystery to apostles (some of which were dead when he wrote this) and prophets (all dead and in the grave when he wrote this). How does insight get revealed to dead prophets if they are simply dead?
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
That's one of the problems with the disembodied consciousness doctrine. Most Christians say when a believer dies he goes to Heaven, yet the story of Lazarus and the rich man he goes to Abraham's bosom, apparently the thief went to paradise, supposedly according to Paul they go to be with the Lord. which is it? On top of that the rich man went to Hades. One has to ask where do they go, to be with the Lord, Abraham's bosom, or Paradise? Here's another problem, supposedly Jesus and the thief went to paradise, yet in the Scriptures paradise is a garden not a subterranean place. Another problem with these multiple places is that supposedly Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom. That's not a place, it's a man's chest. It's just like when John leaned on Jesus bosom, Jesus bosom wasn't a location on the map. However, putting that aside the rich man went to Hades and suffered in the flames. From what I've heard, the believers go to Abraham's bosom and the wicked got Hades to suffer in the fire. I have a question(not directed at you), Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, was he more righteous than Jesus? I hope everyone would say no. If not then why did Lazarus go to Abraham's bosom and Jesus go to Hades? If Hades is the place of torment in the flames why did Jesus go there?
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Act 2:22-27 KJV)
The word translated hell is Hades
I guess I will have to bail on this one. I do not believe in disembodied consciousness so in a lot of aspects you are arguing from a premise I do not even believe in. If it was disembodied how could we even recognize who was in the vision or even have an identity at all.