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Are you saying by this that people who are alive and living in their natural bodies can not please God.
You have portrayed a very sad state of the Victory Jesus paid for us at the cross.
JLB
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?
- Thread starter Kathi
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Are you saying by this that people who are alive and living in their natural bodies can not please God.
You have portrayed a very sad state of the Victory Jesus paid for us at the cross.
JLB
- Jul 13, 2012
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Are you saying by this that people who are alive and living in their natural bodies can not please God.
- Jul 13, 2012
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- Jul 13, 2012
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Ok, let me rephrase my question to you.
What does "in the flesh" mean in line with the word of God...to you?
JLB
Chopper
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2 Corinthians 5:6-8 "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
And we have this also.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.Philippians 1:21
If he Is living for Christ then what is the gain for dying if Paul wasn't with His Lord?
Butch5
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Hi Chopper,
This passage isn't talking about being in a physical human body, it's talking about the body of Christ, the church.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:6-8 KJV)
The context of this passage is the resurrection, Paul begins this thought back in chapter 4. The Greek word translated "home" means to be among one's own people and the word translated"absent" and "present" means to be among one's people.
1736 evndhme,w endemeo {en-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to be among one's own people, dwell in one's own country, stay at home
1553 evkdhme,w ekdemeo {ek-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to go abroad 2) emigrate, depart 3) to be or live abroad
The whole context of the passage is the resurrection and Paul is saying that while we are among our own people we are abroad from the Lord. Paul says that he would rather be abroad from his own people and among his own people with the Lord.
The passage is not talking about a ghost leaving the body and going to be with the Lord. He's Talking about being here and with his people in the church but would rather be with his people with the Lord.
Butch5
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But that's an inference.
Doulos Iesou
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I'm sorry that just doesn't cut it. The context in 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 is talking about our earthly bodies, drawing on the metaphor of an earthly tent versus an eternal building made by God. This is of course the resurrection that he is talking about, and later he gives reason to have courage while we are in the body. That whether we are away or with him, it is our aim to please him. The heavenly body is different than our present one, so he may not be regarding a "ghost-like" existence, though other verses in the New Testament denote that.Hi Chopper,
This passage isn't talking about being in a physical human body, it's talking about the body of Christ, the church.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:6-8 KJV)
The context of this passage is the resurrection, Paul begins this thought back in chapter 4. The Greek word translated "home" means to be among one's own people and the word translated"absent" and "present" means to be among one's people.
1736 evndhme,w endemeo {en-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to be among one's own people, dwell in one's own country, stay at home
1553 evkdhme,w ekdemeo {ek-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to go abroad 2) emigrate, depart 3) to be or live abroad
The whole context of the passage is the resurrection and Paul is saying that while we are among our own people we are abroad from the Lord. Paul says that he would rather be abroad from his own people and among his own people with the Lord.
The passage is not talking about a ghost leaving the body and going to be with the Lord. He's Talking about being here and with his people in the church but would rather be with his people with the Lord.
I think we can run into issues when we try to extract so much theology from a text when that wasn't his purpose.
To say that the "body" is referring to Christ's body, the Church, is a huge stretch as that is not apparent from the context in any way.
Butch5
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I think you have. You’ve not really addressed the passages I’ve posted. How do you reconcile your quotes with the passages I?‘ve posted
No, you haven’t. There is a vast difference between the Scriptures teaching something and a person inferring something from Scripture. This is teaching.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)
This is a clear statement that explains how a man was created and what he was created from.
An inference is when one reads a passage of Scripture and draws a conclusion that is not expressly stated. That conclusion may or may not be correct. But it’s not a teaching it’s an inference.
And those same Scriptures say that Saul inquired of a demon. The Scriptures don’t say that Samuel came up, they say that “gods” came up and that Saul “perceived” that it was Samuel. Saul didn’t even see it.
It’s an allegory about the priesthood. Look at the story in relation to the surrounding text. Your argument doesn’t fit the context. As I said it contradicts the OT. Please reconcile the passages.
We’re not three dimensional, this goes to the earlier point. You’ve taken this passage and inferred from it that we are three dimensional, yet this passage says no such thing. Yes, there is body, soul, spirit. However, we learn from Scripture that a body and the spirit/breath together become a soul. Nothing here says that these three items make a single man, you’re inferring that from the passage. This is what I’ve been trying to get across.
He was dead
Butch5
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Sure it does. At home doesn't mean in a physical body it means among one's own people. The typical understanding doesn't fit Scripture. There is no existence without a body. Whether it is in this life or at the resurrection man has a body. There would be no time that man is absent from his physical body and present with the Lord. Look at Paul's earlier argument. 'Not that we would be unclothed but clothed upon'. He is not looking to put off his body but rather to put the incorruptible body over his earthly body. It makes no sense for him to turn right around and then start talking about being without a body. He'd be contradicting himself.
Doulos Iesou
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At home in this context means being in the body, "at home in the body." You're reading too much into the etymology of the word ἐνδημέω. The basic thought behind the word is the idea of being at home, it does not have to denote being among a particular community, and you are stretching the word here.
That is your opinion. Yet there are Scriptures that would contradict that notion. For example:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 12:22-23 (ESV)
When exactly would that man on the cross be with Jesus in paradise? It was "Today." I would recommend you think harder on your position.
According to Paul there is.
It's not contradictory. If these conditions are at different times, a resurrection for when he returns and a different spiritual kind of existence for when we die, then this would not be a contradiction.
This is simply reading the text with a Monism presupposition. I once almost accepted that and looked into it quite a bit, but it simply does not mesh with the New Testament.
Butch5
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If I am make your case.
No, it’s not my opinion. I’m sure you’re aware of figurative speech. I’m also pretty sure that you’re aware that inference isn’t teaching. This passage teaches nothing about a man having a spirit that lives on after death.
What are the spirits of the righteous made perfect? Does the text say they are men?
Even if we acknowledge that they are from men, it doesn’t mean that there is a ghost that lives on after the body. We know from Scripture that God’s breath/spirit is in man and returns to God upon man’s death. It could easily be this spirit that is referred to.
Man has a spirit from God but that doesn’t mean that that spirit is man.
When Jesus returns. I’m pretty you’re aware that there was no punctuation in the original texts move the comma one place to right and you change the entire sentence.
Please show me where because if he is he contradicted himself.
[quote[It's not contradictory. If these conditions are at different times, a resurrection for when he returns and a different spiritual kind of existence for when we die, then this would not be a contradiction.[/quote]
Where does he speak of being dead?
There is an OT also.
Chopper
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Chopper
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Hi Chopper,
This passage isn't talking about being in a physical human body, it's talking about the body of Christ, the church.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:6-8 KJV)
The context of this passage is the resurrection, Paul begins this thought back in chapter 4. The Greek word translated "home" means to be among one's own people and the word translated"absent" and "present" means to be among one's people.
1736 evndhme,w endemeo {en-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to be among one's own people, dwell in one's own country, stay at home
1553 evkdhme,w ekdemeo {ek-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to go abroad 2) emigrate, depart 3) to be or live abroad
The whole context of the passage is the resurrection and Paul is saying that while we are among our own people we are abroad from the Lord. Paul says that he would rather be abroad from his own people and among his own people with the Lord.
The passage is not talking about a ghost leaving the body and going to be with the Lord. He's Talking about being here and with his people in the church but would rather be with his people with the Lord.
I'm sorry Butch but I don't agree with that.
Butch5
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Well, that's what the words mean. I didn't write them Paul did.
Doulos Iesou
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Well if you studied languages and how we derive meaning from words, you would know that meaning comes first and foremost from context. Etymology, studying where the word comes from and its roots is not the primary method of determining meaning.
The word is derived from "en" or translated "in," and "demos" being translated as a public assembly. However, the term conveyed the same thoughts of home that we now use the word to refer to.
Here is an example from Greek Literature at the time, and it's translation.
ἡμεῖς γὰρ οἱ Ἀθηναῖοι ἤλθομεν εἰς τὸν πόλεμον τὸν πρὸς Λακεδαιμονίους καὶ τοὺς συμμάχους ἔχοντες τριήρεις τὰς μὲν ἐν θαλάττῃ τὰς δʼ ἐν τοῖς νεωρίοις οὐκ ἐλάττους τριακοσίων, ὑπαρχόντων δὲ πολλῶν χρημάτων ἐν τῇ πόλει καὶ προσόδου οὔσης κατʼ ἐνιαυτὸν ἀπό τε τῶν ἐνδήμων καὶ τῆς ὑπερορίας ουʼ μεῖον χιλίων ταλάντων· ἄρχοντες δὲ τῶν νήσων ἁπασῶν καὶ ἔν τε τῇ Ἀσίᾳ πολλὰς ἔχοντες πόλεις καὶ ἐν τῇ Εὐρώπῃ ἄλλας τε πολλὰς καὶ αὐτὸ τοῦτο τὸ Βυζάντιον, ὅπου νῦν ἐσμεν, ἔχοντες κατεπολεμήθημεν οὕτως ὡς πάντες ὑμεῖς ἐπίστασθε.
Xenophon. (1904). Xenophontis opera omnia, vol. 3. Medford, MA: Oxford, Clarendon Press.
We Athenians, remember, entered upon our war against the Lacedaemonians and their allies with no fewer than three hundred triremes, some afloat and others in the dockyards, with an abundance of treasure already at hand in our city, and with a yearly revenue, accruing at home or coming in from our foreign possessions, of not less than a thousand talents; we ruled over all the islands, we possessed many cities in Asia, in Europe we possessed among many others this very city of Byzantium also, where we now are,—and we were vanquished, in the way that all of you remember.
Xenophon. (1922). Xenophon in Seven Volumes, 3. (C. L. Brownson, Tran.). Medford, MA: Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA.
In this usage, it is quite clear that it is simply applicable to the place of origin, the place where they come from, home. This simply is the word the Greeks used for home, the fact that its etymology denotes being in a community does not lend to it's meaning in every usage.
People who usually have a weak exegetical argument appeal to etymology to try and draw out a particular meaning to the word, without dealing with how the word was actually understood and used in the Greek culture.
So it's not your opinion, that its your opinion?
Most theology is derived from texts like these, as systematic theology is only a practice that arose after the writings of Scripture. Man went into the Word of God to attempt to derive doctrine about man and God from within the text, even when that sometimes isn't the intended meaning of the passage, but indeed a logical conclusion of it.
Who are the "righteous" as referred to in Scripture? Old Testament and New, you will find that it is always referring to men. The Jews to whom this Epistle was written would have recognized that.
You often use this word "ghost" as if to paint the doctrine in a less favorable light. Ghosts are often portrayed as ethereal beings that walk among us. I wouldn't be so confident as to say what nature these "spirits" have, but that it is non-physical as the word in the Greek denotes, and that it is the spirits of the righteous. Which the Genitive case demonstrates that the spirits are of the righteous people.
Here you demonstrate that you haven't really studied the Greek involved here. Temporal information is fronted in the Greek, in order to establish the specific time frame for events that happen in the specific clause. Namely, that today (that same day) he would be with them in paradise.
This single fact is enough to demolish your position, and is the most convincing piece of evidence in my mind. Discourse analysis of the Greek is important if you want to truly understand how the grammar works.
I will not answer that fallacious question.
He didn't, in fact it seems he is demonstrating that life continues after death.
I would probably agree a whole lot with your thoughts on the Old Testament. The only problem is that this is prior to Jesus and the gift of eternal life. I like you emphasize the importance of the resurrection and that this is the hope of the gospel. However, it seems that there is an existence where people peacefully enjoy the presence of Jesus in some way after they are dead and prior to the Resurrection. This isn't an extremely important doctrine, nor do I find it one of the most Scripturally solid doctrines. I do believe that there are certain texts in the New Testament that exclude the idea of a person being simply dead until the Resurrection.