Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?

[JLB]

Hi Kathi,

This argument assumes that man can alive apart from the body. That is an idea that comes from Greek philosophy, not the Scriptures. The Scriptures tell us that when a man dies, he is dead.

Sir,

The scriptures teach us clearly.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

This does not the spirit is dead without the body.

Abraham was alive in the heart of the earth, though his body was dead.

To be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord.

JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Acts 24:15~~having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:29~~and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[gr8grace3]

Hi Kathi,

This argument assumes that man can alive apart from the body. That is an idea that comes from Greek philosophy, not the Scriptures. The Scriptures tell us that when a man dies, he is dead.

2 Cor 12:2-4~~2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

 

[Eugene]

At the time Jesus gave the parable there was no 'church' for the rich man or Lazarus to attend, so they are both Jews. The difference is in the spirit in which these two Jews kept the law to demonstrate their faith in God. The rich man lacked charity.

The young rich ruler was also a Jew whom Christ said needed to give everything up and follow Him. While we commonly assume it was monetary wealth he was to sacrifice, I believe it was actually his Jewish understanding of the scriptures. Give up what you believe about God from Moses and the Prophets to follow what Jesus preaches, and you will gain more than you gave up.

As Christians we are given the Holy Spirit to comfort us in following Christ. If we look to anything else to comfort us and in doing so fail to share, then we lack charity. However we would not be condemned to the same fate as the rich man because that illustration is pre-Christian. As Christians we are not promised 'Abraham's bosom' after death, but are gathered directly to Heaven. Heaven is greater than paradise.

Hi brother, you're correct in my thinking that none of the church go to paradise that the Old Testament elect went, but do you think paradise of old is also now in heaven? Is that not the captivity taken captive?

2Co_12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

And then we read of the tree of life (Jesus, our constant source of refreshing forever) being in the midst of Paradise, and this is to the church.

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[Butch5]

Sir,

The scriptures teach us clearly.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
This does not the spirit is dead without the body.

Abraham was alive in the heart of the earth, though his body was dead.

To be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord.

JLB

What spirit is that?

Abraham was not alive in the heart of the earth.

The passage doesn't say to be absent from the body "IS" to be present with the Lord. Paul said, 'We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body "AND" present with the Lord." A close study of that passage actually shows that Paul was saying just the opposite of what most claim.

 

[Butch5]

2 Cor 12:2-4~~2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Yeah? Where does this say a man can live outside of the body? Isn't this just a way of saying I don't know if he physically went there or if it was a vision?

 

[gr8grace3]

Yeah? Where does this say a man can live outside of the body? Isn't this just a way of saying I don't know if he physically went there or if it was a vision?

First of all, we know that it was a vision or a revelation from 2 Cor 12:1. Paul knows it was a vision. He even tells us that it was 14 years ago that this happened.This is 57 AD. Paul was stoned in Lystra in 43 AD. Acts 14:19

Why does he state "In the body or apart from the body" twice? To let us know that it is not a mistake.

This is Paul very clearly declaring that he was alive even if his body was dead.....only God knows for sure. But the Jews in acts 14:19 thought Paul was dead, they were no slouches when it came to killing someone by stoning.

Either way Paul very clearly teaches and believes that He is still alive whether in his physical body or not.

 

[Chopper]

What spirit is that?

Abraham was not alive in the heart of the earth.

The passage doesn't say to be absent from the body "IS" to be present with the Lord. Paul said, 'We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body "AND" present with the Lord." A close study of that passage actually shows that Paul was saying just the opposite of what most claim.

Please be careful with your statements. "A close study of" is insinuating that the other person is not studying as well as you.

 

[Butch5]

First of all, we know that it was a vision or a revelation from 2 Cor 12:1. Paul knows it was a vision. He even tells us that it was 14 years ago that this happened.This is 57 AD. Paul was stoned in Lystra in 43 AD. Acts 14:19

Why does he state "In the body or apart from the body" twice? To let us know that it is not a mistake.

This is Paul very clearly declaring that he was alive even if his body was dead.....only God knows for sure. But the Jews in acts 14:19 thought Paul was dead, they were no slouches when it came to killing someone by stoning.

Either way Paul very clearly teaches and believes that He is still alive whether in his physical body or not.

Where does he say that? I didn't see where Paul said anything about being dead in that passage.

 

[Butch5]

Please be careful with your statements. "A close study of" is insinuating that the other person is not studying as well as you.

Sorry Chopper, I didn't mean it that way. I meant a closer look as opposed to a quick reading of the passage. Many times we believe we know what passage says and don't look carefully and the grammar.

 

[Butch5]

First of all, we know that it was a vision or a revelation from 2 Cor 12:1. Paul knows it was a vision. He even tells us that it was 14 years ago that this happened.This is 57 AD. Paul was stoned in Lystra in 43 AD. Acts 14:19

Why does he state "In the body or apart from the body" twice? To let us know that it is not a mistake.

This is Paul very clearly declaring that he was alive even if his body was dead.....only God knows for sure. But the Jews in acts 14:19 thought Paul was dead, they were no slouches when it came to killing someone by stoning.

Either way Paul very clearly teaches and believes that He is still alive whether in his physical body or not.

If it was a vision then why are you arguing that he was alive apart from the body?

 

[gr8grace3]

If it was a vision then why are you arguing that he was alive apart from the body?

Paul was talking about his stoning 14 years ago in Acts 14:19~~But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.

Paul could have been dead or not.Only God knows for sure. So this is my point:

Paul says either way, dead or not, He was still alive and functioning.

Paul considers that he actually could have physically died in that experience and still be alive. Paul advocates that you can still be alive without your physical body.

 

[Butch5]

Paul was talking about his stoning 14 years ago in Acts 14:19~~But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.

Paul could have been dead or not.Only God knows for sure. So this is my point:

Paul says either way, dead or not, He was still alive and functioning.

Paul considers that he actually could have physically died in that experience and still be alive. Paul advocates that you can still be alive without your physical body.

Where does he advocate that? It seems to me you're imposing that on his words. How do you know that Paul is referring to himself being stoned? He says I knew a man, He could be referring to himself or someone else. If he doesn't specify how can you?

Do you think Paul taught about death contrary the OT?

 

[gr8grace3]

Where does he advocate that? It seems to me you're imposing that on his words. How do you know that Paul is referring to himself being stoned? He says I knew a man, He could be referring to himself or someone else. If he doesn't specify how can you?

Do you think Paul taught about death contrary the OT?

God Bless Butch.

 

[JLB]

What spirit is that?

Abraham was not alive in the heart of the earth.

The passage doesn't say to be absent from the body "IS" to be present with the Lord. Paul said, 'We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body "AND" present with the Lord." A close study of that passage actually shows that Paul was saying just the opposite of what most claim.

Abraham responded to the rich man.
Abraham was most certainly alive.

For God is the God of the living and not the dead.

When Moses encountered The Lord at the burning bush, Abraham's body had been dead, however God exclaimed to Moses the He was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Abraham was alive then, and Abraham is alive now.

JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi brother, you're correct in my thinking that none of the church go to paradise that the Old Testament elect went, but do you think paradise of old is also now in heaven? Is that not the captivity taken captive?

2Co_12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

And then we read of the tree of life (Jesus, our constant source of refreshing forever) being in the midst of Paradise, and this is to the church.

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Paradise will exist as a holding cell until the Great White Throne Judgment. 'Captivity' is the whole process of holding the departed over until judgment. 'Captivity taken captive' is Jesus defeating death and sharing Resurrection with us.

The tree of life is in the midst of paradise just as it was in the garden of Eden, but it is/was protected so that none but God could reach it. Jesus did so, and is willing to share its fruit with us. This is how the tree of life is/will be in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Sinthesis]

First of all, we know that it was a vision or a revelation from 2 Cor 12:1. Paul knows it was a vision. He even tells us that it was 14 years ago that this happened.This is 57 AD. Paul was stoned in Lystra in 43 AD. Acts 14:19

Why does he state "In the body or apart from the body" twice? To let us know that it is not a mistake.

This is Paul very clearly declaring that he was alive even if his body was dead.....only God knows for sure. But the Jews in acts 14:19 thought Paul was dead, they were no slouches when it came to killing someone by stoning.

Either way Paul very clearly teaches and believes that He is still alive whether in his physical body or not.

This is interesting.

 

[for_his_glory]

Abraham responded to the rich man.
Abraham was most certainly alive.

For God is the God of the living and not the dead.

When Moses encountered The Lord at the burning bush, Abraham's body had been dead, however God exclaimed to Moses the He was the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Abraham was alive then, and Abraham is alive now.

JLB

JLB, can you give us scripture where it says that Abraham is still alive today as this statement comes against that of Genesis 25:7-10 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.


Gen 25:7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;
Gen 25:10 The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[JLB]

Where does he advocate that? It seems to me you're imposing that on his words. How do you know that Paul is referring to himself being stoned? He says I knew a man, He could be referring to himself or someone else. If he doesn't specify how can you?

Do you think Paul taught about death contrary the OT?

Abraham's Bosom was the same in the old testament as well as the new.

14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."

...And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."

This came to pass as the prophet Samuel had spoken.

Samuel was down in Abraham's Bosom with all the old testament saints in Paradise.

Same principle in the old testament. Paul taught the same as Jesus.

JLB

 

[Chopper]

Where does he advocate that? It seems to me you're imposing that on his words. How do you know that Paul is referring to himself being stoned? He says I knew a man, He could be referring to himself or someone else. If he doesn't specify how can you?

Do you think Paul taught about death contrary the OT?

Butch5, Don't you think that Paul was too humble to say that it was him? IMO Paul was given a thorn to keep him humble. That carried out in so much of how he wrote. IMO he would not mention his name. Something like John, in the Gospels.