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Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?

Hi Chopper,

I'm not. Actually, I'm arguing the opposite, that a man does not exist without a body. I'm arguing that man is a body and God's spirit and nothing else.

So what's all the fuss about? :confused
 
I would then have to ask if you think Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Elisha, and Moses are just waiting around there to be judged according to their works? And then what? I imagine that you realize that Moses committed a sin unto death as it were; Moses, because of unbelief you get up that mount Nebo and die just as your brother Aaron died in mount Hor, and I'm not even going to let you enter Canaan either. Do you think there's a chance left for them? Thanks.

Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Etc. were waiting around in captivity for the Messiah to come for them, preach, then eventually take them to a place He would prepare for them. Their judgment was given according to their faith, which was demonstrated in their works as servants of God. Moses' and Aaron's personal sins were not unforgivable.
 
Hi Chopper,

I'm not. Actually, I'm arguing the opposite, that a man does not exist without a body. I'm arguing that man is a body and God's spirit and nothing else.

What about man's spirit?

What about man's soul?


JLB
 
The Scriptures called him a demon



Here is what the scripture states -

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice...

Does this indicate what she normally saw, or does this indicate that she was surprised? ...she cried out with a loud voice.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!" 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth." 14 So he said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle." And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do." 16 Then Samuel said: "Why then do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines." 1 Samuel 28:12-19

Here is what the scripture states -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?

Samuel gave Saul a prophecy about the outcome of the battle the next day, even foretelling of Saul death as well as his sons.

This was in fact Samuel the Prophet who was alive in the heart of the earth called Abraham's bosom, as well as paradise.


God bless. JLB[/quote]

JLB,

Did you read the Scriptures I presented? The story is told from Saul's perspective, he thought he saw Samuel, however, the Scriptures say that the medium saw "gods". In the Scriptures "gods" are demons. Samuel was not a god. The passage from 1 Chronicles says that Saul inquired of a demon. I think it's obvious that a demon impersonated Samuel.

Your interpretation contradicts several passages of Scripture.

Gen 2:7 says that man consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God. Ecc. 3 says that when a man dies the body goes to dust and the breath/spirit returns to God. From Gen 2 we know that that breath/spirit is God's.

You're interpretation has Samuel dead and prophesying, yet Solomon said,

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecc 9:5 KJV)

Not only do the dead know nothing but Solomon says they have no memory. How could a dead Samuel know nothing, have no memory, remember Saul and prophesy to him?

David,

10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (Psa 88:10 KJV)
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. (Psa 115:17 KJV)

If an interpretation contradicts Scripture it cannot be correct.
 
What about man's spirit?

What about man's soul?


JLB

Man doesn't have a spirit other than God's breath/spirit that is in him. It is the body and the breath/spirit of God the together become a soul. Therefore, without a body, a soul cannot exist.
 
Of course they refer to the resurrection. I have this body, when I die this body goes into the ground and rots. When I'm resurrected, I am given a new body, fit for the new heavens and earth. Aren't you saying that we don't get new bodies?

Just for clarification, when you say new bodies do you mean our present bodies made new or some other body?
 
So what's all the fuss about? :confused

Some are arguing that man exists as a disembodied consciousness such as a ghost. I am arguing that he does not, that without a body a man does not exist.
 
Just for clarification, when you say new bodies do you mean our present bodies made new or some other body?

Gee Butch, I assume that our natural body has decayed and is no more. A new body is what I've always felt. This body of clay must but on an immortal body. Is not what 1 Corinthians 15:44 says? "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."
 
Some are arguing that man exists as a disembodied consciousness such as a ghost. I am arguing that he does not, that without a body a man does not exist.

Right, I believe that. Is someone arguing against that?
 
Gee Butch, I assume that our natural body has decayed and is no more. A new body is what I've always felt. This body of clay must but on an immortal body. Is not what 1 Corinthians 15:44 says? "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."

But that's not resurrection, correct? In Ezekiel's prophecy he sees dead bodies coming together again.
 
Some are arguing that man exists as a disembodied consciousness such as a ghost. I am arguing that he does not, that without a body a man does not exist.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10

These were waiting in heaven for Jesus to return to earth and take vengeance.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14

These are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation and will return to earth with Jesus at the resurrection to receive their immortal bodies that will never die.


7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." Revelation 19:7-18

Here is the scene in heaven as the saints return with Jesus to earth at the resurrection of the dead and rapture.

These all are alive, with no bodies.

Just as we see in Abraham's Bosom.

Just as we see in the case of Samuel and Saul.

Just as we read in the prophets.

Just as we read in the Olivet Discourse.

God is the God of the living as He told Moses at the burning bush.

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:3

Moses was alive though his body was dead!


JLB
 
Which do you believe, that man can exist as a disembodied consciousness or that man cannot exist without a body?

I don't believe that man can exist without a body, EVER! I believe that those who have gone before me who are with Jesus have a body. I don't know if it's the final resurrected body, but some kind of body.
 
Jesus has never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only that breath of God that returns back to Him when this physical body returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory.


Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Here dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our soul is preserved with God for final judgment.


Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/soul returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment.


Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Our soul can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment at the end of time.


1Thessalonians 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


No one has ever entered the third Heaven where God sits on His throne. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4.


Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit".


Revelation 22:

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Jesus only comes once and at that time will bring His reward to those of the first resurrected who are made righteous by that of Gods grace. The second resurrection are those who have rejected Gods grace and their reward is that of an eternity in the lake of fire. 1Corinthians Chapter 15; Revelation 20:6, 15.
 
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10

These were waiting in heaven for Jesus to return to earth and take vengeance.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14

These are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation and will return to earth with Jesus at the resurrection to receive their immortal bodies that will never die.


7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." Revelation 19:7-18

Here is the scene in heaven as the saints return with Jesus to earth at the resurrection of the dead and rapture.

These all are alive, with no bodies.

Just as we see in Abraham's Bosom.

Just as we see in the case of Samuel and Saul.

Just as we read in the prophets.

Just as we read in the Olivet Discourse.

God is the God of the living as He told Moses at the burning bush.

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:3

Moses was alive though his body was dead!


JLB

Two questions for you, one, do these passages prove the one in the OT wrong? If not please reconcile them. Two, John saw things that were future, how do you know those passages aren't still future?

You see, pitting Scripture against Scripture will accomplish nothing in a search for the truth. No matter how many passages you "believe" teach that doctrine you still have to reconcile the OT passages.

You see, it's easy to understand those passages you've posted another way. For instance the soul were under the alter, Why? If the Alter was in Heaven and the souls were under the altar what is under Heaven? Wouldn't that be the earth? However, I would argue that the language is figurative and that there is a specific reason that the souls are under the altar. They were martyrs who sacrificed themselves for God. What took place on the altar? Sacrifices. What happened at the altar during the sacrifice? The blood was used and then poured out on the ground at the base of the altar. After years of sacrifice the ground under the altar would be saturated with blood. Notice what Scripture says about the blood.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11 KJV)

Literally, the soul of the flesh is in the blood. This is reminiscent of what God said to Cain.

10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (Gen 4:10 KJV)

Isn't that what we see in Rev. 6?

Additionally, If you interpret Rev 6 literally it refutes you claim because according to Gen 2:7 a soul requires a body so those under the altar would not be ghosts since they must have body to be a soul.


The passage fro Rev 19 doesn't say anything about people being in Heaven.
 
I don't believe that man can exist without a body, EVER! I believe that those who have gone before me who are with Jesus have a body. I don't know if it's the final resurrected body, but some kind of body.

That's interesting, I don't know if I've heard that before. Why do you think they are with Jesus?
 
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10

These were waiting in heaven for Jesus to return to earth and take vengeance.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14

These are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation and will return to earth with Jesus at the resurrection to receive their immortal bodies that will never die.


7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." Revelation 19:7-18

Here is the scene in heaven as the saints return with Jesus to earth at the resurrection of the dead and rapture.

These all are alive, with no bodies.

Just as we see in Abraham's Bosom.

Just as we see in the case of Samuel and Saul.

Just as we read in the prophets.

Just as we read in the Olivet Discourse.

God is the God of the living as He told Moses at the burning bush.

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:3

Moses was alive though his body was dead!


JLB

Wow JLB, I don't think I've ever disagreed with anything you have posted but I sure disagree with this post of yours. How can the saints stand, and wear white robes, and fall down if they don't have bodies? I don't understand why you believe that.
 
Two questions for you, one, do these passages prove the one in the OT wrong? If not please reconcile them. Two, John saw things that were future, how do you know those passages aren't still future?

You see, pitting Scripture against Scripture will accomplish nothing in a search for the truth. No matter how many passages you "believe" teach that doctrine you still have to reconcile the OT passages.

You see, it's easy to understand those passages you've posted another way. For instance the soul were under the alter, Why? If the Alter was in Heaven and the souls were under the altar what is under Heaven? Wouldn't that be the earth? However, I would argue that the language is figurative and that there is a specific reason that the souls are under the altar. They were martyrs who sacrificed themselves for God. What took place on the altar? Sacrifices. What happened at the altar during the sacrifice? The blood was used and then poured out on the ground at the base of the altar. After years of sacrifice the ground under the altar would be saturated with blood. Notice what Scripture says about the blood.

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11 KJV)

Literally, the soul of the flesh is in the blood. This is reminiscent of what God said to Cain.

10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (Gen 4:10 KJV)

Isn't that what we see in Rev. 6?

Additionally, If you interpret Rev 6 literally it refutes you claim because according to Gen 2:7 a soul requires a body so those under the altar would not be ghosts since they must have body to be a soul.


The passage fro Rev 19 doesn't say anything about people being in Heaven.

I have not pitted scripture against scripture.

I have stated many scriptures that teach us man lives on after his body die.

All you have done is try to discredit what the scriptures say, such as the case of Abraham's bosom and 1 Samuel 28:12-19, even though the scriptures themselves say -

the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.

and again -

An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle."

and again -

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

The scriptures reaffirm over and over that Samuel spoke and prophesied to Saul.

Jesus teaches us of the same activity concerning Abraham's Bosom.


The life of the flesh is in the blood.

I agree. The life of the flesh, the body, is in the blood.

However the life of the soul and the life of the spirit has nothing to do with the blood, the life of the flesh.

We are a three dimensional being like God, created in His likeness and image.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23


Now I have a question for you.

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6


At the time God declared these words to Moses - "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob... was Abraham's body alive or dead?


JLB
 
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Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
 
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