Chopper
Member
- Aug 11, 2013
- 7,193
- 2,659
Hi Chopper,
I'm not. Actually, I'm arguing the opposite, that a man does not exist without a body. I'm arguing that man is a body and God's spirit and nothing else.
So what's all the fuss about?
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Hi Chopper,
I'm not. Actually, I'm arguing the opposite, that a man does not exist without a body. I'm arguing that man is a body and God's spirit and nothing else.
I would then have to ask if you think Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Elisha, and Moses are just waiting around there to be judged according to their works? And then what? I imagine that you realize that Moses committed a sin unto death as it were; Moses, because of unbelief you get up that mount Nebo and die just as your brother Aaron died in mount Hor, and I'm not even going to let you enter Canaan either. Do you think there's a chance left for them? Thanks.
Hi Chopper,
I'm not. Actually, I'm arguing the opposite, that a man does not exist without a body. I'm arguing that man is a body and God's spirit and nothing else.
The Scriptures called him a demon
What about man's spirit?
What about man's soul?
JLB
Of course they refer to the resurrection. I have this body, when I die this body goes into the ground and rots. When I'm resurrected, I am given a new body, fit for the new heavens and earth. Aren't you saying that we don't get new bodies?
So what's all the fuss about?
Just for clarification, when you say new bodies do you mean our present bodies made new or some other body?
Some are arguing that man exists as a disembodied consciousness such as a ghost. I am arguing that he does not, that without a body a man does not exist.
Gee Butch, I assume that our natural body has decayed and is no more. A new body is what I've always felt. This body of clay must but on an immortal body. Is not what 1 Corinthians 15:44 says? "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."
Right, I believe that. Is someone arguing against that?
Some are arguing that man exists as a disembodied consciousness such as a ghost. I am arguing that he does not, that without a body a man does not exist.
But that's not resurrection, correct? In Ezekiel's prophecy he sees dead bodies coming together again.
Which do you believe, that man can exist as a disembodied consciousness or that man cannot exist without a body?
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10
These were waiting in heaven for Jesus to return to earth and take vengeance.
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14
These are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation and will return to earth with Jesus at the resurrection to receive their immortal bodies that will never die.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." Revelation 19:7-18
Here is the scene in heaven as the saints return with Jesus to earth at the resurrection of the dead and rapture.
These all are alive, with no bodies.
Just as we see in Abraham's Bosom.
Just as we see in the case of Samuel and Saul.
Just as we read in the prophets.
Just as we read in the Olivet Discourse.
God is the God of the living as He told Moses at the burning bush.
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:3
Moses was alive though his body was dead!
JLB
I don't believe that man can exist without a body, EVER! I believe that those who have gone before me who are with Jesus have a body. I don't know if it's the final resurrected body, but some kind of body.
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10
These were waiting in heaven for Jesus to return to earth and take vengeance.
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:9-14
These are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation and will return to earth with Jesus at the resurrection to receive their immortal bodies that will never die.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God." 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." Revelation 19:7-18
Here is the scene in heaven as the saints return with Jesus to earth at the resurrection of the dead and rapture.
These all are alive, with no bodies.
Just as we see in Abraham's Bosom.
Just as we see in the case of Samuel and Saul.
Just as we read in the prophets.
Just as we read in the Olivet Discourse.
God is the God of the living as He told Moses at the burning bush.
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:3
Moses was alive though his body was dead!
JLB
Two questions for you, one, do these passages prove the one in the OT wrong? If not please reconcile them. Two, John saw things that were future, how do you know those passages aren't still future?
You see, pitting Scripture against Scripture will accomplish nothing in a search for the truth. No matter how many passages you "believe" teach that doctrine you still have to reconcile the OT passages.
You see, it's easy to understand those passages you've posted another way. For instance the soul were under the alter, Why? If the Alter was in Heaven and the souls were under the altar what is under Heaven? Wouldn't that be the earth? However, I would argue that the language is figurative and that there is a specific reason that the souls are under the altar. They were martyrs who sacrificed themselves for God. What took place on the altar? Sacrifices. What happened at the altar during the sacrifice? The blood was used and then poured out on the ground at the base of the altar. After years of sacrifice the ground under the altar would be saturated with blood. Notice what Scripture says about the blood.
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11 KJV)
Literally, the soul of the flesh is in the blood. This is reminiscent of what God said to Cain.
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. (Gen 4:10 KJV)
Isn't that what we see in Rev. 6?
Additionally, If you interpret Rev 6 literally it refutes you claim because according to Gen 2:7 a soul requires a body so those under the altar would not be ghosts since they must have body to be a soul.
The passage fro Rev 19 doesn't say anything about people being in Heaven.