Did Jesus take on the sins of the whole world?

[Hidden In Him]

The Hebrews one

Sister, you need to at least cite your passage for me. I don't know exactly which Hebrews passage you are referring to.

 

[Deidr]

God predestined to adopt (before the foundation of the world) people from all ends of the earth. An ethnic-religious title of Jew or Gentile is of NO account whatsoever when it comes to those whom Christ has called to Himself.

“And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:31

“That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬

“For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants”
Romans 9:6-8

In the new covenant, Israel should be thought of solely in spiritual terms (neither the physical place of Israel or Jewish heritage holds any weight or relevance under the new covenant). The new Israel is composed of God’s elect; whom can be called from any and all groups/peoples/ethnicities. God shows no partiality and is no respecter of certain people.

Thank you

My quest was not that I didn't know what God said His plan was. That all would be one but How his atonement applied to each.

For it has always been said He died for the sins of the world.
And in one thought He died to free the Jews from under the Law...I can see this...because of a passage that talks about being married to another symbolically.

Now if He died for the sins of the world then one would want to find the meaning of world.

Was the world the nation of Israel
For what would He be freeing The Gentiles from when they had never entered into a Covenant.

In one case I could see that in dying He also could Marry those who were not chosen under the law.

 

[Deidr]

Sister, you need to at least cite your passage for me. I don't know exactly which Hebrews passage you are referring to.

You wrote it...

 

[Deidr]

Depends... Those who completely disavow Him after having once "tasted of the Heavenly gift" i.e. the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, have crucified Him anew before the eyes of the world. I personally don't think there is room for repentance anymore for such types, but most Christians have not even qualified under the terminology used there yet, so I'd say don't worry about it much at this time in history.

Hidden In Him this is the passage you left

"TASTED OF THE Heavenly gift"

 

[Hidden In Him]

You wrote it...

I was working on muscle memory and didn't even consciously realize what I was quoting, LoL.

I'm at work right now, so not sure I can wrap my head around the question properly, but let me get back to you later on it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hi, my point was
That out of those 3 passages that were presented

The Hebrews one for example the falling away was going back under the law where there was no repentance.

Ok, time we actually quoted some passages so they can be looked at in context.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:1-8)

You were asking about the Hebrews going back under law, and I'm guessing you infer that from v.1 where it says, "not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." But this passage doesn't actually imply they would go back to dead works [of the law], only dead works of sin. This is why the word repentance is used in the context (v.1), and the words "of the law" have to be read into the verse. They were still in a state of spiritual immaturity and weren't progressing like they should, so he was saying - since it was impossible for those who might fall away to renew themselves, "Let's move on. We need to not keep laying the same foundation. We need to build on it, and move away from spiritual immaturity because of the dangers."

I'll try to deal with your other passages in a bit, and maybe answer your overall question. I still find it terribly confusing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The parable of the sower none of the first mentions one being born from above. Only the last mentions bearing fruit. And if one bare fruit they would be the one born from above.

No. Again, I believe you are assuming things based on a certain interpretation of 1st John. But the context of the entire letter makes it clear he was saying those born from above still sin occasionally, else they would not need an Advocate before the Father:

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. (1 John 2:1-6).

Those who "did not keep His commandments" here were Gnostics, who professed to know the Lord Jesus Christ but had completely reinvented Him into someone who excused and even condoned sin, leading them to a continual sinful lifestyle, not just a few sins here and there that they needed an Advocate for.

 

[Hidden In Him]

So the parable of the sower most likely is speaking of the message of the Gospel because from Eph 1:13 we know it is after one believes and trust the Gospel of their salvation they are sealed with the Spirit of promise.

Again, we disagree here. The "word" spoken of in the Parable of the Sower is the word of God in its entirety, and not just the written word but everything He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit, through divine utterance, through prophecy, etc. If it were merely the gospel message, that can be summed up by John 3:16, and there are plenty of churches out there who take this approach and that is why they will repeat this same message over and over again ad nauseam with most of the congregation falling asleep in the pews. The word is what we GROW by, which is the thrust of the entire parable, and you don't grow by concentrating on one and only one theme for the rest of your life. The word of God is much richer than that, and especially when you get into the things the Lord can speak to you regarding your own personal life in the here and now. Scripture speaks about faith producing experience, and experience is the best teacher.

(His interpretation) 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” (Mark 4)

 

[Deidr]

Ok, time we actually quoted some passages so they can be looked at in context.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. (Hebrews 6:1-8)

You were asking about the Hebrews going back under law, and I'm guessing you infer that from v.1 where it says, "not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God."

No, Hebrews is one of my favorites...and much of it..is that the new Covenant is built off better promises.

so the comparison is the new vs.the old

But this passage doesn't actually imply they would go back to dead works [of the law], only dead works of sin. This is why the word repentance is used in the context (v.1), and the words "of the law" have to be read into the verse. They were still in a state of spiritual immaturity and weren't progressing like they should, so he was saying - since it was impossible for those who might fall away to renew themselves, "Let's move on. We need to not keep laying the same foundation. We need to build on it, and move away from spiritual immaturity because of the dangers."

If I recall correctly my thoughts on these passages It was hypothetical to show that even if you could go back under the law no sacrifices would remain because the fulfillment has already come in the purpose of Christ. So it seems the author is trying to put their minds to rest so they could move forward in their thinking.

I'll try to deal with your other passages in a bit, and maybe answer your overall question. I still find it terribly confusing.

Well if I recall my earlier question was about St John 3:16...I'd ask was the passage a Newbirth passage...you had said both...and Then I said that means one can be Justified more than once. Then you brought up the Hebrew passage implying that one can't always repent based on having tasted and falling away. And then I must have implied that the falling away was to go back under the law for righteousness.

 

[Deidr]

No. Again, I believe you are assuming things based on a certain interpretation of 1st John. But the context of the entire letter makes it clear he was saying those born from above still sin occasionally, else they would not need an Advocate before the Father:

Get some I'm not assuming that the passage means a person will never sin.

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. (1 John 2:1-6).

Those who "did not keep His commandments" here were Gnostics, who professed to know the Lord Jesus Christ but had completely reinvented Him into someone who excused and even condoned sin, leading them to a continual sinful lifestyle, not just a few sins here and there that they needed an Advocate for.

 

[Deidr]

Again, we disagree here. The "word" spoken of in the Parable of the Sower is the word of God in its entirety, and not just the written word but everything He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit, through divine utterance, through prophecy, etc. If it were merely the gospel message, that can be summed up by John 3:16, and there are plenty of churches out there who take this approach and that is why they will repeat this same message over and over again ad nauseam with most of the congregation falling asleep in the pews. The word is what we GROW by, which is the thrust of the entire parable, and you don't grow by concentrating on one and only one theme for the rest of your life. The word of God is much richer than that, and especially when you get into the things the Lord can speak to you regarding your own personal life in the here and now. Scripture speaks about faith producing experience, and experience is the best teacher.

(His interpretation) 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.” (Mark 4)

I believe it is the Gospel: Which is the Kingdom is available for anyone who puts their trust in Jesus.

So the narrow way and the broad way.
Narrow way- trust Jesus
Broadway rely on yourself and your desires for life

 

[Hidden In Him]

No, Hebrews is one of my favorites...and much of it..is that the new Covenant is built off better promises.

so the comparison is the new vs.the old

I'm telling you. The overall theme of the book is new vs. old covenant, but that particular verse in context is not talking about going back to works "of the law." It's not in the verse and it's not implied either.

It was hypothetical to show that even if you could go back under the law no sacrifices would remain

Go back to sin, not back to the law. Read the closing verses again. "For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8)

It's taking about if they receive the "rain" i.e. the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but all it ends up producing is sin, then they are fit only to be cursed and burned, like barren fruit trees tossed in the fire. Comparing works of the law here to "bearing thorns and briars" seems unnatural to me. The same symbolism is used in the parable of the Sower, and there the "desires of other things," i.e. the lusts and passions of the flesh, are compared to briars and thorns that rise up to choke out the word. I don't think it's talking about law.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Get some

I may need some, cuz this whole conversation hurts my head, Lol.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I believe it is the Gospel: Which is the Kingdom is available for anyone who puts their trust in Jesus.

No. I could show you the rest of the Parables in Mark 4, and they are all talking about the same thing. The thrust was the word producing 30, 60 and 100 fold of itself out of the believer's heart, mind and life, by the believer giving himself to growing in his knowledge of the things of God. A guy who only knows John 3:16 isn't gonna be teaching much of anybody anything. I think they still hold those signs up at football games, LoL.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm a Baptist; So if I could have some Baptist answers I'd appreciate it.

So my question is did Jesus die for the sins of the Gentiles are they considered part of the "world"

I know that God told Peter what God had made clean let no man call unclean.

But what scriptures can I refer to that prove He died for the Gentiles as part of the whole world.

If the Gentiles were never under the law then how are they freed from the law they were never under?

But if by freeing the Jews under their contract or Covenant through His death so that He can be Lord of all through the Spirit what did that look like in scripture.

With that said what did His death mean for the Gentiles and How?

It seems so that He could marry another.

So what does it mean That God loved the World?
"World"

The elect children are scattered worldwide. It has always been God's plan to save people from all nations Gen 12:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[Annagrace]

The elect children are scattered worldwide. It has always been God's plan to save people from all nations Gen 12:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Well said

 

[Randy]

So where was I incorrect Randy

DEIDR=>
When Jesus shed His blood on the cross
it was for the Jews correct?

For everyone even to this day. Jesus even went and preached to the Spirits in prison.

 

[Annagrace]

My quest was not that I didn't know what God said His plan was. That all would be one but How his atonement applied to each.

My friend, it’s far more simple than people (especially those who consider themselves well-versed in theology) make it out to be; I promise.

The atonement of the perfect lamb of God (Jesus) doesn’t vary whatsoever in how it applies to different people/people groups. It applies to EVERYONE in the same exact way. Everyone will be judged according to their faith in Jesus Christ and that alone is what ALL will be judged by (reference Romans 3:30).

The atoning blood of Jesus covers - or pays the wages of sin for - all who give the totality of themselves and their lives over to Him by faith.

 

[Annagrace]

No. Again, I believe you are assuming things based on a certain interpretation of 1st John. But the context of the entire letter makes it clear he was saying those born from above still sin occasionally, else they would not need an Advocate before the Father:

This is not correct. The context of this entire letter in NO WAY implies or “makes clear” that those who’re born again continue on in their sin; in fact, it says quite the opposite.

“NO ONE WHO ABIDES IN HIM SINS; NO ONE WHO SINS HAS SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM” 1john 3:6

Those born again in Christ DO NOT CONTINUE ON IN SIN, NOT EVEN OCCASIONALLY. The apostle John leaves no room for questioning or varying interpretations in this regard. He is very clear.

 

[Annagrace]

Yes, but you have to read that in context. He was talking about continuing to lead a life of sin, i.e. engage in a lifestyle of sinning and justify it.

The word says what it says and doesn’t say what it doesn’t say; regardless of what you believe the “context” to be; and it clearly SAYS THAT THOSE WHO ABIDE IN HIM DO NOT SIN. It is not referring to “those who continue to lead lives of sin” or “those who engage in a lifestyle of sinning” it is referring to THOSE WHO SIN. Simple as that.