Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[lecoop]

Born again (again)

Let's take a look at this scripture in context:

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I have always questioned why Catholics don't put more emphasis on this term, "born again" since Jesus put so much on it. Please notice that twice, Jesus said, "Verily, verily" or "truly truly." he did this to show is that this is VERY important. Then, when we look at what He said, it is what is necessary for ANY human to get into heaven. Therefore, this is one of the most pertinent parts of scripture.

Notice first that Jesus lays it out: a prerequisite to entering heaven: one must be "born again." Nicodemus does not understand that this is speaking of a spiritual birth, so he show how impossible it would be in his mind to be born physically again, from his mother.

Now Jesus will explain what he meant by "born again." He next says: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,..." What then is meant by the "born of water?" Just what Nicodemus had said: a physical birth (from mother's womb). But Jesus added to that, and said that to enter into heaven, one must also have a spiritual birth. This is further proved when we read the next verse: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." This is a parallel to the verse above, where the physical birth relates to "born of flesh," and the spiritual birth relates to "born of the spirit."

Therefore, Jesus is saying that to get into heaven, one first must be born on earth; a physical birth. Demons for example, were not born here, and have not had a physical birth, so they can never legally get into heaven. After one is born physically ,they one is eligible to be born of the spirit.

Now, what did Jesus mean by the spiritual birth? What exactly is this? Let's regress for a moment. How do we become the child of our parents? Only by birth. We carry the DNA of our parents. DNA testing can prove beyond doubt who one's parents are, and especially, who one's parents cannot be.

If I may be so bold then, a spiritual birth is where our spirit is recreated to have God's DNA! We become the children of God. We see this here:

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

However, if I am bald before I am born again, I will still be bald after; I will just be smiling more. If I had a crooked nose before I was born again, it will still be crooked after. If I needed fillings in my teeth before, I will still need fillings after. So what did Paul mean when he said "all things" are new? He was speaking of the realm of the spirit. It is in our spirit man that all things become new. Our spirit man is instantly recreated with God's DNA, so we will every more be children of God.

Last, how does one become "born again?" Is this done in water baptism? What about infant baptism? What about at Christening? No, none of the above causes one's spirit to be recreated. All these things do is make one wet! The first thing that MUST happen to cause one's spirit to be recreated or born again, is a believe that the spirit is corrupt and in need of change! If we believe all is well, then we will not have faith to become born again. So the very first step in becoming born again is to believe that we are lost. What does Paul say?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Every human on earth inherited spiritual death from Adam. We all were born with worldly "DNA" in our spirit, in desperate need of a spiritual re-birth! Paul probably sums it up best here:

Ephesians 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Add to this:

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Once one realizes that he or she is hopelessly lost, and in need of a savior, then and only then will someone seek the savior.

The next step then is to hear the gospel. God said that faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of God, so we must hear to have faith. Once we hear, and allow ourself to agree with the gospel of Jesus Christ, faith comes. Again, Paul puts it best here:

Romans 10:9
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul gives us two steps here for salvation. First, belief in our heart or spirit man. (Head knowledge alone won't work) As I pointed out above, this comes from hearing the gospel of salvation. Once that faith is in the heart, only one thing remains. Faith MUST be put into action! James says that faith without works is dead, being alone. So Paul then, tells us the action required here: we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus.

That is it! God has made it so simple that not even a child would miss it. Please note, no water baptism was needed! All that was necessary to become born again then, was a physical birth, faith in the heart, and confession with the mouth.

Since this is so clearly laid out in scripture, I wonder why so many churchs never teach this?

Coop

 

[Admiral]

My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with Him (by virtue of His calling) to eternal torment in hell.

How does that sound?

That sounds like a God that is 1] VERY involved in His creation
2] a God that I would like to know better... :-D

 

[Admiral]

This question has been anserwed over & over again. First of all, no one is innocent. "For all fall short of the glory of God." Jesus explains that those who haven't heard his word will be beaten with few blows.

Whoa! Excuse me??? "those who haven't heard his word will be beaten with few blows." [Ahem] I am sorry, but I don't recall the book, chapter and verse for that...Would you be so kind and remind me where that is found?

That means they will not go to heaven because heaven is life with Christ. Once a person receives the Holy Spirit, he knows what heaven is. Only the Holy Spirit is eternal, not the flesh. Therefore, no one who is not born again can go to heaven and there is no other place but hell. The bible only gives us 2 options, which people have explained to you over & ogver again. If you don't like it, then making up another option doesn't make your option feasible because none of us makes the decisions of the universe. :wink:

Whooaa....Heidi, that sound so cooooommmmmplicated...

Jesus says that if someone is His, that is, if they declare themselves to be followers of Him, NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM FROM HIS HAND....He gave everyone the right to be a child of God....All you need is a relationship with Jesus, girl....Get to know who God really is, as a Person...and your eternal life begins NOW.... Can you say "amen"?[/quote]

 

[Solo]

My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with Him (by virtue of His calling) to eternal torment in hell.

How does that sound?

That sounds like a God that is 1] VERY involved in His creation
2] a God that I would like to know better... :-D

The confusion of this statement is in the words, "My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with him (by virture of His calling) to eternal torment in hell".

First, God does not send anyone to hell; it is their choice. By rejecting God's salvation, they assume their choice of eternity separated from Him.

Second, God has afforded a way for all to escape the condemnation in which they were born. God served up a way for all to have faith in, but those that refuse because they prefer their path, whatever it may be.

Third, God has created a place for those immortal angels that chose satan's rebellious path instead of God's righteous path. This place is a place of eternal torment, and it is a place originally designed for the devil. All of the children of the devil will end up there as well. (Matthew 8:29 Matthew 25:41 Mark 5:7 Luke 8:28 Luke 16:28 Revelation 14:9-12 Revelation 20:10) Jesus said that the righteous will have eternal life, and the unbelieving will have everlasting punishment and everlasting fire. Matthew 25

 

[mutzrein]

My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with Him (by virtue of His calling) to eternal torment in hell.

How does that sound?

That sounds like a God that is 1] VERY involved in His creation
2] a God that I would like to know better... :-D

The confusion of this statement is in the words, "My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with him (by virture of His calling) to eternal torment in hell".

First, God does not send anyone to hell; it is their choice. By rejecting God's salvation, they assume their choice of eternity separated from Him.

Confusion? Where is the confusion?

Do you think these people chose hell?

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Solo]

My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with Him (by virtue of His calling) to eternal torment in hell.

How does that sound?

That sounds like a God that is 1] VERY involved in His creation
2] a God that I would like to know better... :-D

The confusion of this statement is in the words, "My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with him (by virture of His calling) to eternal torment in hell".

First, God does not send anyone to hell; it is their choice. By rejecting God's salvation, they assume their choice of eternity separated from Him.

Confusion? Where is the confusion?

Do you think these people chose hell?

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They had the opportunity to Know Him but they rejected Him in exchange for their own way. They rejected Him in exchange for their own way of life which ends in their choice. To be in a place where they are not in obedience to anyone but themselves apart from God almighty.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:18-21

 

[Admiral]

They had the opportunity to Know Him but they rejected Him in exchange for their own way. They rejected Him in exchange for their own way of life which ends in their choice. To be in a place where they are not in obedience to anyone but themselves apart from God almighty.

IOWs, these people reject God because thier behaviors mirrored that of the devil more than God....right?

You have personal experience of this, Solo?

 

[Solo]

They had the opportunity to Know Him but they rejected Him in exchange for their own way. They rejected Him in exchange for their own way of life which ends in their choice. To be in a place where they are not in obedience to anyone but themselves apart from God almighty.

IOWs, these people reject God because thier behaviors mirrored that of the devil more than God....right?

You have personal experience of this, Solo?

My personal experience of this, is knowing those that are in the darkness refusing to come into the light. The scripture of the Word of God is plain, and you need to change your focus as it is leading you into error.

 

[Admiral]

My personal experience of this, is knowing those that are in the darkness refusing to come into the light. The scripture of the Word of God is plain, and you need to change your focus as it is leading you into error.

The first lie in the bible was when the snake said, "If you eat of the fruit, you will be like God." Of the Godhead, it is the Holy Spirits job to convict of sin.

Paul says that it is God who grows and matures Christians. All ministers do is plant seed, water the plant, and harvest the crops..

I think we all have seen the effects of a person who desires to convict others of thier errors...What we have seen rarely or not at all is when a person in power trusts God to grow another Christian....

When you come to a disagreement with another Christian, is your experience one of trust or one of conviction? Is it trusting God that He is in control of anothers life or is it attempting to convict of sin?

Quite frankly, I prefer the trusting life...It's much harder, but there is so much more peace that passes all understanding when I talk to God about it....

 

[mutzrein]

Solo

I would that all men would see the truth in scripture. This scripture is not talking about ‘those who had an opportunity to know him but rejected him in exchange for their own way,’ as you put it.

This is talking about the religious – those in the midst of God’s children. Those people who would judge another while not seeing their own faults. Those people who are false prophets – the ones that we shall know by their fruit. Those people who prophesied in Jesus name. Those people who cast out demons in Jesus name. Those people who did many wonderful works in Jesus name.

And do you know what? They are so deceived they do not even realise this scripture is talking about them because they believe, in their own self righteousness, that they are right and others not like them are wrong. After all they see themselves as spiritual men – having a right to judge. They see themselves as vindicated before God because of the wonderful things they do. They look good on the outside. Why, they even look like sheep. Indeed they fool many. But inwardly they are ravening wolves.

In their own self righteousness they believe they are doing the work of God – judging, prophesying, casting out demons, working miracles. The truth is they are workers of iniquity. And that is what Jesus said.

 

[Hawkins]

My personal experience of this, is knowing those that are in the darkness refusing to come into the light. The scripture of the Word of God is plain, and you need to change your focus as it is leading you into error.

Haha...

Solo, I can see that more often you are spiritually correct. But my impression is that you sometimes try to leverage that with your political tendency.

Anyway, it's just my impression of you.


God bless you, bro.

:P

 

[Solo]

My personal experience of this, is knowing those that are in the darkness refusing to come into the light. The scripture of the Word of God is plain, and you need to change your focus as it is leading you into error.

The first lie in the bible was when the snake said, "If you eat of the fruit, you will be like God." Of the Godhead, it is the Holy Spirits job to convict of sin.

Paul says that it is God who grows and matures Christians. All ministers do is plant seed, water the plant, and harvest the crops..

I think we all have seen the effects of a person who desires to convict others of thier errors...What we have seen rarely or not at all is when a person in power trusts God to grow another Christian....

When you come to a disagreement with another Christian, is your experience one of trust or one of conviction? Is it trusting God that He is in control of anothers life or is it attempting to convict of sin?

Quite frankly, I prefer the trusting life...It's much harder, but there is so much more peace that passes all understanding when I talk to God about it....

Those in darkness are not believers. The Bible teaches that the reason that those in darkness do not come to the light (Jesus Christ) is because their deeds are evil and they prefer that their evil not be manifested by going into the light. They prefer to live in darkness. Now what part of this relates to believers?

Since you have wandered into the realm of Christian brothers and sisters in disagreement with one another, I will respond with this. It is part of the duty of some in the body of Christ to proclaim the truth of the Word of God. These that proclaim the truth of the Word of God are not looked at in a good light by all of those that are being corrected, reproofed, instructed, etc.

I will answer your questions:

When you come to a disagreement with another Christian, is your experience one of trust or one of conviction? It is difficult to determine if one on a forum is a Christian or not. If one is a Christian on a board such as this, they normally do not attack that which God is teaching others to be aware of. They will prayerfully make a determination as to whether the facts that are outlined coincide with the Word of God or not, whether it goes against their predetermined bias. Never have I seen a believer call another believer a worker of satan in the Bible, but I have seen the unbelieving call Jesus a worker of satan. A disagreement with a Christian as to whether the doctrines of the Seventh Day Adventists are false, and whether they adhere to the teachings of a false prophet should be looked at in the light of the Word. If these doctrines are false doctrines, then both Christians should be praying for the believers and unbelievers in that organization to overcome the lies of satan.

Is it trusting God that He is in control of anothers life or is it attempting to convict of sin?
God has always used other individuals in the conviction and correction of sin through the guidence of the holy Spirit. Some individuals require a stern handling and others require an easy handling. Those on a forum are normally tough enough to deal with a stern hanldling as they are in a public domain. The truth of the Word of God is proclaimed in a black and white format by those members of the body of Christ Jesus who have the gift of prophesy. Most who proclaim the Word of God in a black and white format are not the most loved persons at the party.

 

[Solo]

Solo

I would that all men would see the truth in scripture. This scripture is not talking about ‘those who had an opportunity to know him but rejected him in exchange for their own way,’ as you put it.

This is talking about the religious – those in the midst of God’s children. Those people who would judge another while not seeing their own faults. Those people who are false prophets – the ones that we shall know by their fruit. Those people who prophesied in Jesus name. Those people who cast out demons in Jesus name. Those people who did many wonderful works in Jesus name.

And do you know what? They are so deceived they do not even realise this scripture is talking about them because they believe, in their own self righteousness, that they are right and others not like them are wrong. After all they see themselves as spiritual men – having a right to judge. They see themselves as vindicated before God because of the wonderful things they do. They look good on the outside. Why, they even look like sheep. Indeed they fool many. But inwardly they are ravening wolves.

In their own self righteousness they believe they are doing the work of God – judging, prophesying, casting out demons, working miracles. The truth is they are workers of iniquity. And that is what Jesus said.

Those that live in darkness and refuse to come into the light are all unbelievers who have rejected God. In reference to those that think that they are saved but are not; there is a way to know whether they actually know Jesus Christ as savior or not. Those that do not believe that Jesus is God are fooling themselves into believing that they are saved, when they do not know God. They will one day esteem themselves before Jesus and cry that they have lived for him, and he will tell them to depart, those workers of iniquity, because he NEVER knew them. Those that are saved, know the voice of Jesus and follow him.

 

[Solo]

My personal experience of this, is knowing those that are in the darkness refusing to come into the light. The scripture of the Word of God is plain, and you need to change your focus as it is leading you into error.

Haha...

Solo, I can see that more often you are spiritually correct. But my impression is that you sometimes try to leverage that with your political tendency.

Anyway, it's just my impression of you.


God bless you, bro.

:P

Thanks for the insight. I will continue to contend for the faith, and will watch my political tendencies. :wink: Keep my blind spot covered friend. :D

 

[mutzrein]

Solo

I would that all men would see the truth in scripture. This scripture is not talking about ‘those who had an opportunity to know him but rejected him in exchange for their own way,’ as you put it.

This is talking about the religious – those in the midst of God’s children. Those people who would judge another while not seeing their own faults. Those people who are false prophets – the ones that we shall know by their fruit. Those people who prophesied in Jesus name. Those people who cast out demons in Jesus name. Those people who did many wonderful works in Jesus name.

And do you know what? They are so deceived they do not even realise this scripture is talking about them because they believe, in their own self righteousness, that they are right and others not like them are wrong. After all they see themselves as spiritual men – having a right to judge. They see themselves as vindicated before God because of the wonderful things they do. They look good on the outside. Why, they even look like sheep. Indeed they fool many. But inwardly they are ravening wolves.

In their own self righteousness they believe they are doing the work of God – judging, prophesying, casting out demons, working miracles. The truth is they are workers of iniquity. And that is what Jesus said.

Those that live in darkness and refuse to come into the light are all unbelievers who have rejected God. In reference to those that think that they are saved but are not; there is a way to know whether they actually know Jesus Christ as savior or not. Those that do not believe that Jesus is God are fooling themselves into believing that they are saved, when they do not know God. They will one day esteem themselves before Jesus and cry that they have lived for him, and he will tell them to depart, those workers of iniquity, because he NEVER knew them. Those that are saved, know the voice of Jesus and follow him.

Thankyou Solo

What you are saying is that because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God (and not God), I do not know God and therefore I am a worker of iniquity on my way to hell. Is that what you are saying?

Because if it is, this is exactly what is being discussed in another thread. Should I rebuke you? No - I won't. It is no-ones position to make that judgement save Christ himself and therefore if there be any rebuke it will also come from Him.

In the meantime I count myself blessed and no man can take that away from me.

 

[Admiral]

Since you have wandered into the realm of Christian brothers and sisters in disagreement with one another, I will respond with this. It is part of the duty of some in the body of Christ to proclaim the truth of the Word of God. These that proclaim the truth of the Word of God are not looked at in a good light by all of those that are being corrected, reproofed, instructed, etc.

Well, I have a problem wiith your teaching...When Jesus taught in groups, His was the preaching mode. And He took the liberty to be hard at times with a group...But when He taught individually, like with Nicodemus or the Woman at the well, He was kind, and never abusive. He taught from scripture, and never from what some Pharasee said.

When someone teaches, the recipient of the teaching recivees willingly...That is called teaching...Otherwise, you are forcing...If you are forcing, you are in reality, attempting to convict of sin, which is the Holy Spirits job. If you are attempting to convict of sin, you participate in Satan's lie of "becoming like God." If you are convicting, you are in essence upsurping God.

God only wants us to be ambassadors and witnesses. Rebuking is only done to the group or to the willing...

Many Christians get this wrong.... but the bible is clear on this point....

 

[Solo]

Since you have wandered into the realm of Christian brothers and sisters in disagreement with one another, I will respond with this. It is part of the duty of some in the body of Christ to proclaim the truth of the Word of God. These that proclaim the truth of the Word of God are not looked at in a good light by all of those that are being corrected, reproofed, instructed, etc.

Well, I have a problem wiith your teaching...When Jesus taught in groups, His was the preaching mode. And He took the liberty to be hard at times with a group...But when He taught individually, like with Nicodemus or the Woman at the well, He was kind, and never abusive. He taught from scripture, and never from what some Pharasee said.

When someone teaches, the recipient of the teaching recivees willingly...That is called teaching...Otherwise, you are forcing...If you are forcing, you are in reality, attempting to convict of sin, which is the Holy Spirits job. If you are attempting to convict of sin, you participate in Satan's lie of "becoming like God." If you are convicting, you are in essence upsurping God.

God only wants us to be ambassadors and witnesses. Rebuking is only done to the group or to the willing...

Many Christians get this wrong.... but the bible is clear on this point....

You have not followed your own teaching as you call my position satanic. You have opposed scripture in exchange for standing for the false doctrines of the SDA. You have accused me of being satanic just as the pharisees accused Jesus as being satanic. Your posts claim to be that of correctness, but you have not given any scripture to your claims. I call sin, sin just as the believers have done from John the Baptist on. You suggest that this is a satanic proposition in becoming like God. Perhaps you do not understand that I am a temple of the living God and He lives within me, giving me wisdom and understanding liberally as I have asked him. Your position is more like satan than mine, as you stand for deceptions and lies as opposed to the truth. You would rather accuse a believer instead of standing with a believer. Your position is more suspect now than before, and your delivery is not of the holy Spirit, just for your information.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Ephesians 5:6-11

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:1-4

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. Luke 17:3

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. Hebrews 3:12-15

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2 Peter 2:1-6

20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 1 Timothy 5:20

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:10-16

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Titus 2:11-15

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:19

 

[Solo]

Solo

I would that all men would see the truth in scripture. This scripture is not talking about ‘those who had an opportunity to know him but rejected him in exchange for their own way,’ as you put it.

This is talking about the religious – those in the midst of God’s children. Those people who would judge another while not seeing their own faults. Those people who are false prophets – the ones that we shall know by their fruit. Those people who prophesied in Jesus name. Those people who cast out demons in Jesus name. Those people who did many wonderful works in Jesus name.

And do you know what? They are so deceived they do not even realise this scripture is talking about them because they believe, in their own self righteousness, that they are right and others not like them are wrong. After all they see themselves as spiritual men – having a right to judge. They see themselves as vindicated before God because of the wonderful things they do. They look good on the outside. Why, they even look like sheep. Indeed they fool many. But inwardly they are ravening wolves.

In their own self righteousness they believe they are doing the work of God – judging, prophesying, casting out demons, working miracles. The truth is they are workers of iniquity. And that is what Jesus said.

Those that live in darkness and refuse to come into the light are all unbelievers who have rejected God. In reference to those that think that they are saved but are not; there is a way to know whether they actually know Jesus Christ as savior or not. Those that do not believe that Jesus is God are fooling themselves into believing that they are saved, when they do not know God. They will one day esteem themselves before Jesus and cry that they have lived for him, and he will tell them to depart, those workers of iniquity, because he NEVER knew them. Those that are saved, know the voice of Jesus and follow him.

Thankyou Solo

What you are saying is that because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God (and not God), I do not know God and therefore I am a worker of iniquity on my way to hell. Is that what you are saying?

Because if it is, this is exactly what is being discussed in another thread. Should I rebuke you? No - I won't. It is no-ones position to make that judgement save Christ himself and therefore if there be any rebuke it will also come from Him.

In the meantime I count myself blessed and no man can take that away from me.

Before I was born again, I knew Jesus to be the Son of God, but I knew that he was not God. After being born again, I became a child of God and I knew God. At that time, I KNEW that Jesus is God. I did not know God prior to being born again.

If you know God, then you know that the Son is God. Jesus was teaching the Jews that they did not know God the Father because they did not know Him. Jesus taught them and said, "Before Abraham was, I am". In order to know God the Father, one must repent, believe, be born of God, and follow Jesus. Jesus is God and that truth is imparted to all who are born again. The Jews thought that they were children of Abraham, but Jesus told them that they were children of the devil.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: F19 for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:31-59

Read this page http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm

 

[mutzrein]

Solo

I suppose since rebuking another in the manner that you have shown us, is quite plainly scriptural by your definition - but still I cannot - I will not level an accusation against another in like manner. All I can say is, The Lord rebuke thee. That is sufficient for me.

 

[Solo]

Solo

I suppose since rebuking another in the manner that you have shown us, is quite plainly scriptural by your definition - but still I cannot - I will not level an accusation against another in like manner. All I can say is, The Lord rebuke thee. That is sufficient for me.

Great. Now study the website that I posted that show with 100% certainty that Jesus is God.

PS. I am not too worried about your Jesus rebuking me. Afterall, your Jesus is not God. :wink: