Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[donadams]

That’s why it’s called the obedience of faith.

And faithfulness is praised
Rev 2:13

 

[donadams]

Don,
Please do not misrepresent the CC.

We can know we are saved RIGHT NOW.
The verses you posted state that we have to endure till the end.

So are you saying we won't really know we're saved till the end and we have endured.....

Or are you saying we CANNOT know right not that we are saved?
(and then what happens in the future will happen, but what about for RIGHT NOW?)

Please clarify your understanding of this teaching.

No I’m asking how and stating what scriptures I found

Tell me!

I have no intention of making any declaration regarding another person’s faith

Thks

 

[JLB]

4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:“So I swore in My wrath,‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”

What does this have to do with "falling way" or "not continuing in the faith", or not "continuing to believe" ?


Do you believe their is another way to be saved, other than to believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel message of salvation?






JLB

 

[Tenchi]

Salvation for everyone is a choice.

If, we continue to believe, we continue to be saved.

Then it is your belief that saves you, not Jesus, the Savior. This means that you are your own Savior. But there is only one Savior and you ain't him. See John 14:6, Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5.

This is the core foundation of salvation.

No, it's not. The foundation is Jesus Christ, the Savior.

1 Corinthians 3:11
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Acts 4:12
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Again, from the teaching about the Sower, Jesus says - (words of Christ in red)

• Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

So, you think Jesus is teaching that the devil can snatch someone's salvation from them? It's he who "takes away the word out of their hearts," right? If the "ones who hear" are actually saved (which Jesus never says they are), then Jesus is teaching that a person's salvation can be snatched away from them by the devil; I assume whenever he pleases. Is this what you believe? I sure hope not. This would make Jesus and the Gospel profoundly impotent to save the lost. Why wouldn't the devil, given who he is and what he wants, snatch salvation from every person who is saved, if he's able to? Do you see the problem here with how you're reading the parable?

Instead, what Jesus says is that some who've heard the Gospel are not saved because the devil snatches the "seed" of the Gospel from their hearts before it can produce repentance, confession and submission to Christ as Savior and Lord (Acts 3:19; Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; 1 John 5:11-13; 1 John 1:9). Though they've heard the truth, they haven't yet believed it and been saved. Before they can do so, the devil interferes, taking away the word out of their heart. Jesus's words in the verse you've cited above, then, aren't a threat that a born-again, saved person can lose their salvation.

Continuing on in His teaching, Jesus moves to the next group of people -

• But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Notice that these in this group of people, did in fact believe. The received the word WITH JOY.

However, these who did choose to believe, on believed for a while.

Your remarks here simply ignore everything I explained about the verse, so there's no point in saying anything more concerning it.

Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

None of the verses you've offered actually say this. You've assumed that your salvation, accomplished by God through Christ, you can reverse. How you think you've the power to undo something God has done, however, is beyond me. I suppose it has to do, at least in part, with your belief that you're your own Savior. But the Bible is crystal clear that salvation is entirely God's work and that we come to Him for salvation utterly incapable of saving ourselves.

Romans 5:6-11
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Where are you in any of this? You did not initiate God's salvation plan; you did not contribute to it; you are only a helpless, undeserving recipient of what God has done for you.

When you are a recipient of a heart transplant, do you have the power to undo the transplant, to remove the new heart you have and put in your old one? Obviously not. If you went home and constantly ate fast food, and took up smoking cigarettes, and laid about, never exercising, would you, by these things, be able to undo the heart transplant you'd had? No, of course not. You'd be able to negate the benefits of the transplant, but you could do nothing about the new heart itself. The heart surgeon has done something to you to which you agreed that you can't reverse. God has done the very same thing to you spiritually, giving you a new, spiritual "heart" in Jesus Christ (in the Person of the Holy Spirit more precisely) when He saved you, that you can't ever remove. His spiritual "surgery" upon you is complete and irreversible, just as a physical heart transplant is. You can live in a way that negates the benefits of that new heart, but the new heart itself (i.e. the Holy Spirit) you have no power to remove.

So, no, our belief is not the key to our salvation. Jesus is. It is he, the object of our belief, not our belief itself that saves us. And what he does in saving us, we cannot undo.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

 

[JLB]

Then it is your belief that saves you, not Jesus, the Savior.

It is me believing in Jesus Christ the Savior, and confessing with my mouth Jesus as LORD.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Grace is the Holy Spirit, empowering me to do this when the Gospel is preached.

... no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3


Each person must do the confessing.
Each person must do the believing.



JLB

 

[donadams]

???

John 1:12-13
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5:10-13
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 Corinthians 1:30
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 John 3:14
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers...

Ephesians 2:4-9
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

And so on.

Baptismal regeneration yes
In Christ yes eternal life yes

Still must believe, abide, and endure to the end

Thks

 

[donadams]

Yes. That concerns our flesh with it's evil desires and the deeds it inspires because... the body is still dead because of sin (Ro 8:10). But for those who are in Christ there is no condemnation (Ro 8:1). In other words, all the mercy that we need has been given to us and is ours to be thankful for.

But no mercy is needed for the spiritual lives that God created in us when He came to live in our hearts (Eph 4:24) because the new man was "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness". In Romans 8 vernacular... the spirit is alive becaus of righteousness (Ro 8:10) and the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us (Ro 8:4).

Legalism twists these two truths [(a) that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, and (b) that the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us] into conditional truths that apply only in the case of good behavior. Typically, proponents of legalism point to the phase "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" to make their legalistic points. But what they willingly ignore is that "walking" is not the condition that satisfies the requirements. What satisfies the requirements is the presence of Christ in our hearts. That is what sets apart those who are in Christ from those who are in the flesh (Ro 8:9).

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:9-10)​

What about Matt 5:7 Lk 7:47 1 pet 4:8
And the commandments?
And prayer, sacrifice suffering required to avoid sin?

Thks

 

[donadams]

Grace... "By Silvanus, our faithful brother as I consider him, I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand." (1 Pe 5:12)

Eternal Life... "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 Jn 5:11–12)

Union with Christ... "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Co 6:17)

It's all here and now.

Yes a state of grace in christ

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

What does this have to do with "falling way" or "not continuing in the faith", or not "continuing to believe" ?

Do you believe their is another way to be saved, other than to believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel message of salvation?

JLB

You asked for Scripture that supports my point of view that trust in Christ is under assault even today, that people everwhere need know that all their eggs are safe in only one basket, and they need to resist all calls to not put them there and keep them there.

I gave you one example from Scripture (Hebrews 4:1-10) that says in plain language that people who have entered His rest have ceased from their labors as God did from His, and that there is reason for concern for those who have not entered His rest but continue to work.

Resting from one's works is a threshold issue. It is part and parcel with salvation. Those who have rested from their works are not working for their salvation or to maintain their salvation. But they are under assault by those who are working for theirs. And if they stop resting and start working, then they trade in the freedom they have in Christ for bondage and become debtors to obey every law. That doesn't mean they lose their salvation, but they lose the joy of their salvation until the law does it's job and drives them back to their knees at the feet of Christ. This is the constant battle of faith that we face in today's world (i.e., continuing to rest all our hope on Christ instead of working for it) and it is no different than what was going on in the early days of the church.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

What about Matt 5:7 Lk 7:47 1 pet 4:8
And the commandments?
And prayer, sacrifice suffering required to avoid sin?

Thks

The Beatitudes describe what is true for those who are saved. They are the poor in spirit, they mourn, they are meek, they hunger and thirst for righteousness, they are merciful, they are pure in heart, they are peacemakers, and they are persecuted for righteousness’ sake. Having these traits does not save you. You inherit these traits from your heavenly Father when He gives birth to you spiritually.

The same is true for all the commandments. Obeying commandments cannot save you (Ga 3:21). But when you become saved, all the righteous requirements of the commandments are fulfilled in you because Jesus is in you (Ro 8).

And sin avoidance is impossible in the flesh because of the corruption of the flesh (Ro 8). But it is totally avoided in the new man, which is "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24).

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Yes a state of grace in christ

Yes, we stand in the grace of God, we possess the eternal life that only exists in Jesus, and we are joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him. It doesn't get any better than that on earth. It will be even better in heaven when we see Him face to face.

 

[Hopeful 2]

This verse, too, doesn't speak of our salvation depending upon us, but of our benefiting from, our partaking of, all that is ours in Christ through a confident, steadfast trust in him. Though the Israelites at the borders of Canaan had taken up an "evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God," and though, as a result, they spent the remainder of their lives wandering the wilderness, God continued with them, providing for and protecting His Chosen People. So, too, the saved person under the New Covenant. Though they doubt all that is theirs in Jesus, though they don't, by faith, enter into the "Promised Land" of their spiritual inheritance in Jesus, God still continues with them, having promised never to leave nor forsake His own (Hebrews 13:5) - just as He did with the evil, disbelieving Israelites.



No, this passage speaks of unsaved people in the Church, "tares" or "false brethren" who, by their participation in the life and work of the Church, obtain some enlightenment concerning the Gospel, in a second-hand way "taste" a bit of the heavenly gift of the Spirit by taking part in what he's doing through the work of genuine believers. But because they aren't genuinely saved, they often "fall away" in time and do as the apostle John described in 1 John 2:19.



No, this describes the person who has only an emotional response to the truth of the Gospel (the "seed) but doesn't actually let it "take root" in the "soil" of their heart. The weakness and uselessness of this sort of response to the "seed" is exposed the moment their superficial response to the Gospel is challenged. Jesus is not, then, describing a saved person here at all. The one in whom the Holy Spirit truly dwells - who is saved - does not collapse under persecution.

Who resists the devil when I am tempted ?

 

[donadams]

You asked for Scripture that supports my point of view that trust in Christ is under assault even today, that people everwhere need know that all their eggs are safe in only one basket, and they need to resist all calls to not put them there and keep them there.

I gave you one example from Scripture (Hebrews 4:1-10) that says in plain language that people who have entered His rest have ceased from their labors as God did from His, and that there is reason for concern for those who have not entered His rest but continue to work.

Resting from one's works is a threshold issue. It is part and parcel with salvation. Those who have rested from their works are not working for their salvation or to maintain their salvation. But they are under assault by those who are working for theirs. And if they stop resting and start working, then they trade in the freedom they have in Christ for bondage and become debtors to obey every law. That doesn't mean they lose their salvation, but they lose the joy of their salvation until the law does it's job and drives them back to their knees at the feet of Christ. This is the constant battle of faith that we face in today's world (i.e., continuing to rest all our hope on Christ instead of working for it) and it is no different than what was going on in the early days of the church.

Jn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Jn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I wonder how many sins a person can get away with and still be counted as having done good. All indications are that even one sin disqualifies a person. Unless it is forgiven. That's the only navigable path for humans. Even Catholics believe that, right? Why else would they have such a thing as confession?

 

[Tenchi]

It is me believing in Jesus Christ the Savior, and confessing with my mouth Jesus as LORD.

It is I who goes to the dentist to get a cavity filled, believing very confidently that my dentist can do so. But if my dentist doesn't actually fill my tooth, neither my going to his dental office, nor my belief in his ability to do so will fill my cavity. All that my belief in my dentist and my going to him for dental work does is put me in the right place for my dentist to do his dental work.

In the same way, my going to Christ for salvation and my belief in the Gospel aren't what save me. These things merely put me in the right place to be saved by the Savior. I could believe with all my heart and do all I can think of to prompt Christ to save me (pray, plead, clean up my act, go to church, etc.), but if he doesn't save me, I will never be saved. This is because, as I said, it isn't my faith that saves me (or any good deed that I do) but the object of my faith, Jesus Christ.

Grace is the Holy Spirit, empowering me to do this when the Gospel is preached.

... no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3


Each person must do the confessing.
Each person must do the believing.

Yes, we aren't puppets, forced by God to salvation. He must aid us in coming to a knowledge of the Truth (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25), but it is up to us to choose the Savior, by faith, and submit to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10). Doing so doesn't save me, however, it just puts me in the proper position to be saved by the Savior.

Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Tenchi]

Baptismal regeneration yes
In Christ yes eternal life yes

Still must believe, abide, and endure to the end

Nope. See my previous posts.

 

[Tenchi]

Who resists the devil when I am tempted ?

James 4:7
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1 Peter 5:8-9
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

By what power?

Ephesians 6:10-11
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Philippians 2:13
13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[JLB]

I gave you one example from Scripture (Hebrews 4:1-10) that says in plain language that people who have entered His rest have ceased from their labors as God did from His, and that there is reason for concern for those who have not entered His rest but continue to work.

Resting from one's works is a threshold issue. It is part and parcel with salvation. Those who have rested from their works are not working for their salvation or to maintain their salvation. But they are under assault by those who are working for theirs. And if they stop resting and start working, then they trade in the freedom they have in Christ for bondage and become debtors to obey every law. That doesn't mean they lose their salvation, but they lose the joy of their salvation until the law does it's job and drives them back to their knees at the feet of Christ. This is the constant battle of faith that we face in today's world (i.e., continuing to rest all our hope on Christ instead of working for it) and it is no different than what was going on in the early days of the church.

Let's look at the actual scripture and some surrounding context -

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:8-11

The theme of the OP is about loving and obeying the truth, which includes obeying His Gospel.


This is the point the writer of the book of Hebrews is making, as we see the foundational context from just a few verses back in view where he says...

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Here is my question -

Do you believe a person who departs from the living God is still in Christ; still remains saved?



JLB

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Let's look at the actual scripture and some surrounding context -

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:8-11

The theme of the OP is about loving and obeying the truth, which includes obeying His Gospel.

This is the point the writer of the book of Hebrews is making, as we see the foundational context from just a few verses back in view where he says...

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Here is my question -

Do you believe a person who departs from the living God is still in Christ; still remains saved?

JLB

The context was that the Israelites (all but 3) did not trust God, but were afraid of the "giants" living in the promised land. Their fear of the giants revealed their lack of trust in God. That was their "evil heart of unbelief" that caused them to "depart from the living God".

However, the writer of Hebrews points out that David's use of that story points to a different kind of rest than what the Israelites evenually found in the Promised Land. That rest must be entered into "Today". It was "Today" in David's time. It was "Today" in the writer of Hebrews' time. And it is "Today" in our time.

"Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion" (Heb 3:7–8)​

Jesus is calling all people to rest from their labors and enter His rest. People must do so without following the same example of unbelief exhibited by the Israelites who did not trust God but instead feared the giants. When you hear His voice, you should not harden your heart as they did. Instead, you must stop trying to earn your salvation but rest all your weight on Him. Otherwise, you will not enter His rest.

This passage does not talk about leaving His rest through an evil heart of unbelief. It talks about not entering His rest through an evil heart of unbelief. Why would anyone who has found rest for his soul give it up for the burdensome labor from which he fled?

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. (Mt 11:28–30)​

 

[JLB]

The context was that the Israelites (all but 3) did not trust God, but were afraid of the "giants" living in the promised land. Their fear of the giants revealed their lack of trust in God. That was their "evil heart of unbelief" that caused them to "depart from the living God".

However, the writer of Hebrews points out that David's use of that story points to a different kind of rest than what the Israelites evenually found in the Promised Land. That rest must be entered into "Today". It was "Today" in David's time. It was "Today" in the writer of Hebrews' time. And it is "Today" in our time.

"Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion" (Heb 3:7–8)​

Jesus is calling all people to rest from their labors and enter His rest. People must do so without following the same example of unbelief exhibited by the Israelites who did not trust God but instead feared the giants. When you hear His voice, you should not harden your heart as they did. Instead, you must stop trying to earn your salvation but rest all your weight on Him. Otherwise, you will not enter His rest.

This passage does not talk about leaving His rest through an evil heart of unbelief. It talks about not entering His rest through an evil heart of unbelief. Why would anyone who has found rest for his soul give it up for the burdensome labor from which he fled?

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. (Mt 11:28–30)​

Again, here is my question -

Do you believe a person who departs from the living God is still in Christ; still remains saved?