Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[JLB]

It's the first setting under "Preferences". If I remember correctly, I had to change mine from "Dark" to "CF Original" when I returned after a long hiatus.

Got it. Thanks

 

[donadams]

I wonder how many sins a person can get away with and still be counted as having done good. All indications are that even one sin disqualifies a person. Unless it is forgiven. That's the only navigable path for humans. Even Catholics believe that, right? Why else would they have such a thing as confession?

Venial sim does not separate us from God
Only serious or mortal (deadly) sin committed with free will does

Thks

 

[donadams]

Nope. See my previous posts.

Saved? Scripture says to abide Jn 15:4 endure to the end Mk 13:13

Are you saved?

Can a man be saved without baptism?

Can a man be saved without a priest?

Thks

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Venial sim does not separate us from God
Only serious or mortal (deadly) sin committed with free will does

Thks

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mt 12:31–32)​

There is only one unforgivable sin. Every other sin "will be forgiven".

I do not understand why those who are totally dependent on God forgiving all their sins would need a way to differentiate between the sins that needed to be laid on Jesus and the ones which did not.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Is 53:6)

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Saved? Scripture says to abide Jn 15:4 endure to the end Mk 13:13

Are you saved?

Can a man be saved without baptism?

Can a man be saved without a priest?

Thks

Yes, yes, yes. The last "yes", of course, is because of the lower case "p". No one can be saved without Jesus, the High Priest, because He is the one who saves people from God's wrath.

 

[Tenchi]

Which is why biblical believing involves obeying. By saying "biblical" believing I am referring to the way God means for us to believe; What God defines as "believing".

Believing of any kind, if it's more than merely superficial, intellectual assent, is inevitably reflected or manifested in corresponding action. If I really believe wearing a life jacket when on the water will be important in keeping me safe, I'll put it on, even if it's hot and uncomfortable. If I really believe my dentist can fix my painful tooth, I'll go to him to get it fixed, even if doing so is unpleasant and expensive. If I really believe my mechanic can fix the wobbling front tire on my car, I'll take my car to him to repair, even though it's inconvenient and costly to do so. And so on. It isn't, then, ONLY concerning spiritual matters that belief and action correspond.

Such corresponding action, though, merely completes belief, it doesn't constitute it. If, for example, I believe the snarling dog running at me is going to bite me, I may not have time to act on my sincere and certain belief and climb a tree. Does this mean my belief didn't exist, or wasn't genuine and sincere? No. This example illustrates that belief always precedes action and exists discretely separate from the action it may produce. In other words, I can truly believe something and yet not manifest that belief in concrete action. The man on his deathbed, immobilized by cancer, who trusts in Christ only moments before he dies, is truly saved though his belief has no opportunity to reflect itself in the dying man's conduct. This is so because his deeds, his God-obedient actions, aren't what saves him (Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9). Salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ. He alone saves. (Acts 4:12; John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5)

The biblical word "believe" is used interchangeably with the word obey.

Only insofar as they often overlap with each other. But as the examples above demonstrate, they aren't actually identical things.

Example:

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

This simply illustrates the inter-relationship of belief with action, not that they are synonymous. What did Jesus say about belief in him and the work of God?

John 6:28-29
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Trusting in, believing in, Jesus as Saviour and submitting to him as Lord (Romans 10:9-10) are things we do, though they are not doings of the external-action sort, like leaping up into a tree when a snarling dog charges at you. They are entirely of the heart, mind and will, internal and unseen by all, save God.

The Dentist -

If we have a pain in our tooth and believe the dentist can help us, we call upon him for help.

If the dentist advises us what to do to fix the pain in our tooth such as a root canal, and we don't do what he advises, then our believing in him is in vain, because we did not continue, did not follow through to the end of his instruction.

The dentist doesn't tell us to do our own root canal upon ourselves. That's silly. If we could do such a thing, we wouldn't be at the dentist's office! We see the dentist because we want him to fix our tooth. Though our belief in our dentist has resulted in our going to him for help, in the end, we can only receive from him his tooth-repairing work. We don't fix our own tooth, just as we don't save ourselves.

Likewise, is we believe in Christ, the way God intends for us to believe, then we will give heed to His teaching to do what He instructs us to do; What He instructs us to do is the truth.

"There is no man so blind as he who will not see." Nothing in this quotation from your post does anything to counter or negate my point about the limits of our belief.

Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the truth:

His Gospel
His Doctrine
His Commandments

Yes, but the Source of all Truth is not identical to the truth propositions that arise from him.

 

[Tenchi]

Saved? Scripture says to abide Jn 15:4 endure to the end Mk 13:13

Are you saved?

Can a man be saved without baptism?

Can a man be saved without a priest?

Scripture also clearly indicates that people have been, and are saved, not that they can only expect at some point in the future to be saved. See 1 John 5:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 30, 2 Corinthians 2:15, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 3:3, Revelation 3:20, etc.

I am saved. Absolutely. Thank God!

Yes, a man can be saved entirely separately from water baptism. He cannot be saved, however, without the "baptism of the Spirit" by which he is placed into Christ.

Of course, a man can be saved without a priest. Goodness. Just read 1 Timothy 2:5, Romans 10:9-10, and John 3:16. We are saved by Christ and by no other (Acts 4:12). Certainly not by another fallible person, whatever his title.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It boils down to forgiveness. Everyone needs it, and nobody deserves it. That should unite us all under one flag.

That flag should illustrate our surrender to God.
Sin abrogates that surrender.

 

[JLB]

Believing of any kind, if it's more than merely superficial, intellectual assent, is inevitably reflected or manifested in corresponding action.

I agree.

 

[donadams]

It's not absurd, it is what differentiates the saved from the lost...

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 Jn 3:14–15)​

When a person passes from death to life, he loves his brothers and sisters in Christ. If he recognizes that he loves his brothers and sisters in Christ, then that is evidence to him of his own salvation. If he does not find love in his heart for other people in whom Christ lives, then that is evidence to him that he is not actually saved. Loving fellow Christians, therefore, is not the means to be saved, it is evidence of one's own salvation for the one who observes it in himself.

The same thing is true for all the commandments. This is what is meant by, "I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts" (Jer 31:33). When Jesus comes to live in our hearts, he brings with Him all God's righteous requirements. As a result, all the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in those of us in whom Christ dwells. Love for God, love for the things of God, and love for the people of God is in us, not because we choose it for ourselves, but because He has come to live in us and has made us one with Him. Now, we choose to live out what He put in us when He came to live in our hearts.

Matt 5:7 then why does a saved man need mercy?

 

[donadams]

I have no earthly idea how what you wrote here has anything to do with what I wrote.

We are not saved, over and done with nothing more to do

We are in Christ united to God and his saints by grace which we can lose
Amen?

 

[JLB]

Believing of any kind, if it's more than merely superficial, intellectual assent, is inevitably reflected or manifested in corresponding action. If I really believe wearing a life jacket when on the water will be important in keeping me safe, I'll put it on, even if it's hot and uncomfortable. If I really believe my dentist can fix my painful tooth, I'll go to him to get it fixed, even if doing so is unpleasant and expensive. If I really believe my mechanic can fix the wobbling front tire on my car, I'll take my car to him to repair, even though it's inconvenient and costly to do so. And so on. It isn't, then, ONLY concerning spiritual matters that belief and action correspond.

Such corresponding action, though, merely completes belief, it doesn't constitute it. If, for example, I believe the snarling dog running at me is going to bite me, I may not have time to act on my sincere and certain belief and climb a tree. Does this mean my belief didn't exist, or wasn't genuine and sincere? No. This example illustrates that belief always precedes action and exists discretely separate from the action it may produce. In other words, I can truly believe something and yet not manifest that belief in concrete action. The man on his deathbed, immobilized by cancer, who trusts in Christ only moments before he dies, is truly saved though his belief has no opportunity to reflect itself in the dying man's conduct. This is so because his deeds, his God-obedient actions, aren't what saves him (Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9). Salvation is a Person, Jesus Christ. He alone saves. (Acts 4:12; John 14:6; 1 Timothy 2:5)

You just described the principle of faith.

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience, otherwise faith is dead, and can not produce the intended divine result. Just like a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without the corresponding "work" or action of obedience is dead, and does not function.

This is why The Holy Spirit calls it "the obedience of faith".

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

This is the Gospel call to repent, by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.

The corresponding action a person must take when they "hear" (faith comes by hearing) the Gospel is to believe; which means to obey by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord.

By obeying the Gospel, and "bending the knee" to Jesus Christ, we are translated out of the kingdom of darkness, whereby Satan was our lord, into the kingdom of God's dear Son; the kingdom of God.


This is what Jesus commissioned Paul to do; words of Christ in red -


And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20




JLB

 

[Tenchi]

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience, otherwise faith is dead, and can not produce the intended divine result.

No, belief may have a corresponding action but, as my snarling dog example illustrates, a belief that would produce corresponding action can't always do so. Is the belief not sincere, full and genuine, then? No. Ideally, saving faith will give rise to corresponding action, but it doesn't have to do so. Many things can interfere with the expression of such faith in one's external conduct. False teaching and teachers, besetting sins, spiritual immaturity, ignorance - these all can greatly hinder spiritual "fruit" in the life of a genuine child of God.

Just like a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without the corresponding "work" or action of obedience is dead, and does not function.

This is works-salvation, which the Bible repeatedly denies. Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9.

A saving faith, when it does not manifest in corresponding conduct, is "dead" in the sense of being inactive, as a corpse is inactive. It is not "dead" in the sense of one's salvation being dissolved.

Being saved by Christ requires that we do as Romans 10:9-10 describes. But this just "activates" the Holy Spirit who imparts to us in himself the saving effect of Christ's atonement for our sin. Titus 3:5, Romans 8:9-16, 1 John 4:13, Acts 2:1-5. God, not our belief, saves us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mt 12:31–32)​

There is only one unforgivable sin. Every other sin "will be forgiven".

I do not understand why those who are totally dependent on God forgiving all their sins would need a way to differentiate between the sins that needed to be laid on Jesus and the ones which did not.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Is 53:6)

Every other sin will be forgiven IF one repents of it.

 

[JLB]

No, belief may have a corresponding action

My (biblical) “believing” is the corresponding action.

 

[JLB]

This is works-salvation, which the Bible repeatedly denies. Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9.

The obedience of faith is not works based salvation but biblical salvation.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is not working.

Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus, is the corresponding action of obedience to the Gospel command of repent.

Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus is how a person is saved.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 1:9-10

• and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

JLB

 

[Tenchi]

My (biblical) “believing” is the corresponding action.

Yes, trusting in Christ as Savior and submitting to him as Lord is an inner action/response, a "posture" of mind and heart we adopt, to the truth of the Gospel. This inner posture might not bear external "fruit" immediately, however, for the reasons I already pointed out. Some would say, though, that this lack of outward obedience is proof-positive that real saving faith is non-existent, which would be false. In fact, these same folk want to say that only if one acts externally in expression of one's trust in Christ is that trust genuine, which is essentially works-salvation. If this isn't you, wonderful!

Confessing Jesus as Lord is not working.

This depends upon what you mean by "working."

Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus, is the corresponding action of obedience to the Gospel command of repent.

And the man on his death-bed who hasn't the strength to make an out-loud confession? Is he prevented, as a result, from being saved, even though his belief in Christ is just as sincere and full as yours is? Or does God look upon the heart and responds to what is there?

Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus is how a person is saved.

Well, here I get a bit...troubled about your phrasing of things. The confession of Christ as one's Savior and Lord leads to salvation by God. My confession of personal belief in the truth of Christ as divine Savior isn't some sort of salvation incantation that, once spoken, instantly converts me. Instead, my confession is merely an acknowledgement of what is true to which God responds with His saving grace, the Holy Spirit coming to reside within me and imparting to me all that God extends to me in Christ Jesus (redemption, justification, sanctification, adoption, spiritual life). It isn't my words, then, that save me, but God, who looks beyond mere words to the condition of my heart and mind and responds to what is there ultimately.

I fuss about all this because many people think of the Sinner's Prayer as a kind of "magic spell" that simply has to be said, regardless of what is true of the person's mind and heart, and one is saved. These same people think they can use this spell as a last-minute get-out-of-hell-for-free card. Though having lived a wretched life and having no real heart's-desire for God, they can loophole their way into His family and kingdom by playing this "card," by just saying the "magic spell" that is the Sinner's Prayer, and sneak into heaven. It's a silly line of thinking, but, nonetheless, quite common - at least, in my experience, anyway.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

That flag should illustrate our surrender to God.
Sin abrogates that surrender.

Living under law and not under grace is a fine place to live until you sin. Then you need forgiveness. You may want to return again to law after you are forgiven, but it won't be long before you sin again. Hopefully, in due time, you will learn that your failures to obey the law place you under the curse of the law and that the only way out from under the curse is to rest all your hope in Christ's sacrifice as being sufficient to cover all your sins.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Matt 5:7 then why does a saved man need mercy?

Meciful people need mercy too. Why? Because of Adam. What we have in Adam is not redeemed. But what we have in Christ is redeemed. This can't be understood apart from knowing that what came from the flesh is flesh and what came from the Spirit is spirit. When we talk about forgiveness, grace, and mercy... we apply these things to the flesh, the evil desires of the flesh, and the evil deeds it inspires. But when we talk about righteousness, holiness, and oneness with God... we apply these things to the new creature He created when He came to live in our hearts who was "created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). The life that we live in the flesh isn't to reform the flesh to make it better, it is to live out what He put in us by walking in the Spirit.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

We are not saved, over and done with nothing more to do

People who have Christ living in them are saved, meaning they will never perish but have everlasting life. Our salvation is not complete here and now only in that we currently live in bodies that are corrupt. After we die physically, we will receive bodies that are incorruptible just as our spirits are incorruptible now. Between now and then, we are ambassadors for Christ, imploring people to be reconciled with God.

We are in Christ united to God and his saints by grace which we can lose
Amen?

No, not Amen to that.