Does man have the free will choice to choose God?

[Dave Slayer]

I don't have a problem with this but at the same time, I don't believe it would be wrong to say that we willingly come after we are drawn. Or to be more accurate, we come because we are drawn. And certainly God does not draw everyone otherwise everyone would be saved. God will raise up everyone that He has drawn on the last day. But is this every single person in the world? No. Many will not be raised up on the last day so this verse certainly isn't teaching that God draws us and then gives us a choice to come to Him or not.

Dave Slayer,

Many have a problem with God dragging sinners to Christ but I am thankful for it. God didn't have to save me but He did. I would rather be dragged to Christ than God letting me die in my sins.

I am thankful for it to, and honoured. I never said God was drawing all people now in look at Acts 2:39 and then 1 Corin. 15:22. I also do not think God is drawing/quicking all believers now; but instead his elect/overcomers who will become Kings and priest for the remainder of mankind.

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.".

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23).

There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST.

The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam.

But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order."

There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age ( note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order."

But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

Just to be clear, are you saying that every single person ever born will eventually be saved whether they had repented or not?

 

[mondar]

Just to be clear, are you saying that every single person ever born will eventually be saved whether they had repented or not?

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!

That is exactly what he is saying.

 

[Dave Slayer]

Just to be clear, are you saying that every single person ever born will eventually be saved whether they had repented or not?

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!

That is exactly what he is saying.

But is it Biblical? If everyone will be saved eventually, why not live as sinners and enjoy the lusts of the world if we will all be saved anyways?

 

[Benoni]

Dave,

Put it this way, I just had a thread last week call "How Much Sand can a Dump Truck Hold"; they deleted the whole thread; so I am not at liberty to say.

Here is one of the reason they deleted the thread and if you want to dig deeper Email me.

Genesis 32:12And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

Genesis 22:16-18 (King James Version)
16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

How many millions of grains of sand can you put in your own two hands at the sea shore; how many stars can you count on a cold winter day; and that only the ones you can see. Just think how many grains of sand in a dump truck?

Is it biblical, yes is it orthadoxy no.

I don't have a problem with this but at the same time, I don't believe it would be wrong to say that we willingly come after we are drawn. Or to be more accurate, we come because we are drawn. And certainly God does not draw everyone otherwise everyone would be saved. God will raise up everyone that He has drawn on the last day. But is this every single person in the world? No. Many will not be raised up on the last day so this verse certainly isn't teaching that God draws us and then gives us a choice to come to Him or not.

Dave Slayer,

Many have a problem with God dragging sinners to Christ but I am thankful for it. God didn't have to save me but He did. I would rather be dragged to Christ than God letting me die in my sins.

I am thankful for it to, and honoured. I never said God was drawing all people now in look at Acts 2:39 and then 1 Corin. 15:22. I also do not think God is drawing/quicking all believers now; but instead his elect/overcomers who will become Kings and priest for the remainder of mankind.

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.".

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23).

There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST.

The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam.

But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order."

There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age ( note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order."

But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

Just to be clear, are you saying that every single person ever born will eventually be saved whether they had repented or not?

 

[Bubba]

Every action or choice we make is predicated on all those stimuli that have effected us even prior to leaving the wound. These stimuli include, our parents DNA,our parents teachings, our place of birth, friends, school teachers, books, Sunday school teachers, etc, etc. L.Ray Smith states it well:

THE ILLUSION OF FREE WILL

"Here it is, the magical source of man’s imagined deity. It is, of course, "HUMAN FREE WILL." Or, as in the case with Satan, "SATANIC FREE WILL." And just what is human and satanic free will? It is a fictitious power that Satan and all humans imagine they have, which gives them the power to make choices that have NO CAUSE. Do not mistake what I have said. Choice is not the power to MAKE choices. We all have that power. Choice is a power of the brain, mind, and spirit. It is a logical functioning mechanism. Even a sophisticated computer can "make choices" based on other data at its disposal contained in its memories. But making choices is not ... I repeat is NOT, judging, determining or selecting something BASED ON NOTHING!!!

The first edict of the physical universe is "CAUSE AND EFFECT." There cannot be an effect anywhere in the universe, on earth, in a laboratory under strict controls, or in the mind of a human being that does not have A CAUSE! It is axiomatic! It is not debatable! It is a LAW OF GOD! And therefore, the most lawless of all lawless conceptions possible is that man can make choices and decisions that are NOT BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE BY EITHER INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL CAUSES AND FORCES!!! It is, in fact, an attempt at nihilism of the very laws of physics. And so theologians, philosophers and the world’s greatest wisdom thinkers would have us believe that free will is a power even greater than God Himself, seeing that even God does not think things, or create things from NOTHING! God does NOT operate the universe by decisions based on nothing and therefore having no cause."

Bubba

 

[Drew]

The first edict of the physical universe is "CAUSE AND EFFECT." There cannot be an effect anywhere in the universe, on earth, in a laboratory under strict controls, or in the mind of a human being that does not have A CAUSE!

I can understand how an atheist might try to make such an argument. But I doubt that a theist can. You seem to be constructing an argument against human free will that appeals to the law of cause and effect. Well, let's apply that to God. If one uses the very samen argument, you can do away with the free will of God. Is that a conclusion you are willing to embrace - that God has no free will?

I suspect that some who reject "freewill" leverage the appeal of "everything must be caused by something else" notion, and reason that there can be nothing that a person can ultimately "freely" choose to do (since that thing would be caused by something else). Well that indeed has appeal. But I think that if one believes in a God, whose very actions are not fully caused by something else, then one has to bite the bullet and accept the notion of human free will as a possibility.

 

[Benoni]

Point is your can have all the opionion of scholars be they religious or worldly; what does God's Word say.

 

[Bubba]

The first edict of the physical universe is "CAUSE AND EFFECT." There cannot be an effect anywhere in the universe, on earth, in a laboratory under strict controls, or in the mind of a human being that does not have A CAUSE!

I can understand how an atheist might try to make such an argument. But I doubt that a theist can. You seem to be constructing an argument against human free will that appeals to the law of cause and effect. Well, let's apply that to God. If one uses the very samen argument, you can do away with the free will of God. Is that a conclusion you are willing to embrace - that God has no free will?

I suspect that some who reject "freewill" leverage the appeal of "everything must be caused by something else" notion, and reason that there can be nothing that a person can ultimately "freely" choose to do (since that thing would be caused by something else). Well that indeed has appeal. But I think that if one believes in a God, whose very actions are not fully caused by something else, then one has to bite the bullet and accept the notion of human free will as a possibility.

Drew,
God is the exception to the rule of “cause and effectâ€Â; everything happens from the “counsel of His willâ€Â, not Satan’s or the human race’s will. Scripture speaks over and over again of the bondage to sin we have since the preordain fall of our Garden parents. In God’s will He opens the eyes and hearts of those who are in darkness and brings them to the light. The difference from my belief and probably yours is that the Holy Spirit is efficacious and you believe that man can still say no even once drawn.
Peace, Bubba

 

[Drew]

God is the exception to the rule of “cause and effectâ€Â; everything happens from the “counsel of His willâ€Â, not Satan’s or the human race’s will.

But this is not relevant to the argument about free will to which I was responding. Your argument was an appeal to the inchoherence - the logical impossibility - of man exercizing free will in the light of the law of cause and effect. You cannot then claim that "God is an exception". In for a penny, in for a pound. Since you affirm that God has free will, you have to abandon the "cause and effect" argument and make your case on other grounds.

You, of course, have that right. But you cannot have it both ways - you cannot make a "cause and effect" argument and then claim God as an exemption.

 

[Benoni]

What always amazes me on the freewill arguement the side that believes man has a freewill looks for its reference out side of the Bible. Where does it say man has a freewill in the scripture towards salvation that many believe?

 

[Cornelius]

God is the exception to the rule of “cause and effectâ€Â; everything happens from the “counsel of His willâ€Â, not Satan’s or the human race’s will.

But this is not relevant to the argument about free will to which I was responding. Your argument was an appeal to the inchoherence - the logical impossibility - of man exercizing free will in the light of the law of cause and effect. You cannot then claim that "God is an exception". In for a penny, in for a pound. Since you affirm that God has free will, you have to abandon the "cause and effect" argument and make your case on other grounds.

You, of course, have that right. But you cannot have it both ways - you cannot make a "cause and effect" argument and then claim God as an exemption.

I agree with Benoni, we cannot use human logic to solve this. The Bible is clear about God being sovereign in all things.

Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

"All things" include your choices. There is nothing, whatsoever that falls outside of "all things"

 

[Benoni]

Amen.

Can't bring the truth of God's Word down to human reasoning; far too deep.

God is the exception to the rule of “cause and effectâ€Â; everything happens from the “counsel of His willâ€Â, not Satan’s or the human race’s will.

But this is not relevant to the argument about free will to which I was responding. Your argument was an appeal to the inchoherence - the logical impossibility - of man exercizing free will in the light of the law of cause and effect. You cannot then claim that "God is an exception". In for a penny, in for a pound. Since you affirm that God has free will, you have to abandon the "cause and effect" argument and make your case on other grounds.

You, of course, have that right. But you cannot have it both ways - you cannot make a "cause and effect" argument and then claim God as an exemption.

I agree with Benoni, we cannot use human logic to solve this. The Bible is clear about God being sovereign in all things.

Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

"All things" include your choices. There is nothing, whatsoever that falls outside of "all things"

 

[follower of Christ]

Dave,

Put it this way, I just had a thread last week call "How Much Sand can a Dump Truck Hold"; they deleted the whole thread; so I am not at liberty to say.

Most likely because it was just one more rule breaking UR thread...that would seem to be the most obvious reason.

 

[follower of Christ]

Thats real nice.
I hope you dont mind if *I*/*WE* just stick to Gods word in the matter of free will.

Every action or choice we make is predicated on all those stimuli that have effected us even prior to leaving the wound. These stimuli include, our parents DNA,our parents teachings, our place of birth, friends, school teachers, books, Sunday school teachers, etc, etc. L.Ray Smith states it well:

THE ILLUSION OF FREE WILL

"Here it is, the magical source of man’s imagined deity. It is, of course, "HUMAN FREE WILL." Or, as in the case with Satan, "SATANIC FREE WILL." And just what is human and satanic free will? It is a fictitious power that Satan and all humans imagine they have, which gives them the power to make choices that have NO CAUSE. Do not mistake what I have said. Choice is not the power to MAKE choices. We all have that power. Choice is a power of the brain, mind, and spirit. It is a logical functioning mechanism. Even a sophisticated computer can "make choices" based on other data at its disposal contained in its memories. But making choices is not ... I repeat is NOT, judging, determining or selecting something BASED ON NOTHING!!!

The first edict of the physical universe is "CAUSE AND EFFECT." There cannot be an effect anywhere in the universe, on earth, in a laboratory under strict controls, or in the mind of a human being that does not have A CAUSE! It is axiomatic! It is not debatable! It is a LAW OF GOD! And therefore, the most lawless of all lawless conceptions possible is that man can make choices and decisions that are NOT BROUGHT INTO EXISTENCE BY EITHER INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL CAUSES AND FORCES!!! It is, in fact, an attempt at nihilism of the very laws of physics. And so theologians, philosophers and the world’s greatest wisdom thinkers would have us believe that free will is a power even greater than God Himself, seeing that even God does not think things, or create things from NOTHING! God does NOT operate the universe by decisions based on nothing and therefore having no cause."

Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

What always amazes me on the freewill arguement the side that believes man has a freewill looks for its reference out side of the Bible. Where does it say man has a freewill in the scripture towards salvation that many believe?

It is perpetually the same exact nonsense with you, isnt it ?

We have shown free will FROM SCRIPTURE, benoni, and your continually denying it only makes you look silly and desperate...shall I post the evidence yet AGAIN ???

And AGAIN with the strawman !
NO ONE HERE HAS SAID that man can save himself !
WHEN the Father DRAWS a man THEN he has a CHOICE (by the free will given him by his Creator) to REPENT or continue in REBELLION.

Scriptural Evidence provided by FoC;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479694
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479696
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479697
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479699
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479700

 

[follower of Christ]

I agree with Benoni, we cannot use human logic to solve this. The Bible is clear about God being sovereign in all things.

Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

"All things" include your choices. There is nothing, whatsoever that falls outside of "all things"

NO, cornelius...that is YOU and a couple others here distorting the tar out of the INTENT of a verse for your own purposes.

 

[follower of Christ]

I agree with Benoni, we cannot use human logic to solve this. The Bible is clear about God being sovereign in all things.

Eph 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

"All things" include your choices. There is nothing, whatsoever that falls outside of "all things"

Hitting on this again to destroy this absurd "all things" nonsense....

So, by your, benoni and bubba's views here ALL things are by HIS counsel...isnt that right ?
Please do NOT backpeddle now...any of you three.

So this means that even things such as FEAR and CONFUSION would ALSO be included in 'ALL THINGS'....again, please dont make yourself look bad by backpeddling now....

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
(2 Timothy 1:7 EMTV)

So VERY clearly there are at least TWO 'things' that God does NOT cause...does NOT 'purpose' ....does NOT foreordain....or these two passages would be lies.

Scriptural Evidence provided by FoC;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479694
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479696
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479697
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479699
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479700

 

[Bubba]

God is the exception to the rule of “cause and effectâ€Â; everything happens from the “counsel of His willâ€Â, not Satan’s or the human race’s will.

But this is not relevant to the argument about free will to which I was responding. Your argument was an appeal to the inchoherence - the logical impossibility - of man exercizing free will in the light of the law of cause and effect. You cannot then claim that "God is an exception". In for a penny, in for a pound. Since you affirm that God has free will, you have to abandon the "cause and effect" argument and make your case on other grounds.

You, of course, have that right. But you cannot have it both ways - you cannot make a "cause and effect" argument and then claim God as an exemption.

Drew,
Out of all the possible choices in a situation God will always make the best choice for mankind if He is moral and good, but is it really a choice (to decide between possible options) if God is omniscient? No Drew God does not have freewill, unless He is imperfect, a perfect God does not make imperfect decisions. “Cause and effect†is in respect to our realm not His.
Peace, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Thats real nice.
I hope you dont mind if *I*/*WE* just stick to Gods word in the matter of free will.

Every action or choice we make is predicated on all those stimuli that have effected us even prior to leaving the wound. These stimuli include, our parents DNA,our parents teachings, our place of birth, friends, school teachers, books, Sunday school teachers, etc, etc. L.Ray Smith states it well:

THE ILLUSION OF FREE WILL

"Here it is, the magical source of man’s imagined deity. It is, of course, "HUMAN FREE WILL." Or, as in the case with Satan, "SATANIC FREE WILL." And just what is human and satanic free will? It is a fictitious power that Satan and all humans imagine they have, which gives them the power to make choices that have NO CAUSE. Do not mistake what I have said. Choice is not the power to MAKE choices. We all have that power. Choice is a power of the brain, mind, and spirit. It is a logical functioning mechanism. Even a sophisticated computer can "make choices" based on other data at its disposal contained in its memories. But making choices is not ... I repeat is NOT, judging, determining or selecting something BASED ON NOTHING!!! ...


Bubba

Follower,
You confuse all those verses of the law as our freewill to perform, just because God has these verses, does not mean you can perform them, apart from Him. All our abilities to do His will comes from Him (Romans 11:36), our Lord stated we are to abide in Him, yet we are able to abide because of Him and apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:1-5). Is this freewill?
Bubba

 

[Drew]

Where does it say man has a freewill in the scripture towards salvation that many believe?

This is an invalid argument as has been repeatedly demonstrated to you. One more time:

It is often claimed that the Scriptures never assert the reality of free will (for people, e.g. in relation to "accepting" an offer of salvation). This question might not be entirely fair if the writers of scripture were coming from a worldview where "human freedom" was such a widely accepted and deeply ingrained concept that it simply need not be stated explicitly. Instead, the concept gets bundled into other concepts, concepts like "choose", "select", "decide", etc.

Anyone familiar with western culture will know that there is an implication of free will when we use these words in day to day life. Evidence for this includes the fact that someone would be considered whacky if they suggested that an apple "chose" or "decided" to fall from the tree. And yet we consider it perfectly all right to say that a person "chose" to go to a baseball game or "decided" to read a book.

The reason for this discrepancy is, of course, the fact that modern westerners basically all believe in the reality of free will, and that people have it and apples do not. Suppose that someone wrote a vast sweeping story with all sorts of human choices and decisions being described, with nary a clear statement that these choices and decisions were free. Would it be legitimate to claim the author did not believe in the reality of free will? Of course not. The author’s belief is clearly evidenced by his/her word selection – phrases like “he chose†and “she decided†have free will implicitly bundled into them.

So the absence of clear scriptural assertions about man having free will is not evidence that the writers did not believe men have some degree of free will.