Does man have the free will choice to choose God?

[follower of Christ]

Actually it is two words, “quicken, and drawâ€Â.

And again, to quicken is to make alive.

G2227
ζÉοÀοιέÉ
zÃ…ÂopoieÃ…Â
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

So the Father DRAWS a man and when that man REPENTS he is made ALIVE spiritually.
Not complicated at all.

I have showed the context of these verses as well how they are defined.
I have demonstrated how the word draw is written in the scriptures in different passages, and in context; plus I have quoted the Greek in both words.

No, you have offered your distortion of the words over and again.

You’re the one who cannot product one verse to prove man has a freewill or choice when it comes to His own salvation.

Sure did. You apparently have selective vision.
Hebrews shows conclusively that man can REJECT God and salvation...ie they CHOOSE to do so when the choice is presented.

I have even agreed with you that carnal man is free to sin,

You have simply altered your view just enough to try to keep from being in blantant error.

buy a car or what every he wants to do when it comes to small matters. But he did not choose his parents, his color of skin or his country; and he sure did not choose his salvation.

Here we go with this nonsense again.
We do not have TOTAL free will, friend...weve been thru this tripe already.
We DO have free will to choose in the choices we CAN make.
I CANT choose my parents.
I CAN choose to put on my shoes.
Learn the difference then get back with me.

Your so called "context of whole" which you claim you have posted, has nothing to do with man having a freewill or choice towards his salvation.

It certainly does. That you are unable to see it or agree to it doesnt nullify it.

If this is true stop playing games and get down to business and show me?

Give a rest, friend. Youve BEEN shown a hundred times in these multiple threads by many of us here. You just keep pretending like you havent.

 

[follower of Christ]

I did not know you were a KJ only... Now I understand.

Pathetic.
Bearing false witness again ?
See, every time you pull this sort of garbage you only confirm that you firstly DONT read anything and secondly that you have to resort to every sort of childish, godless, immature distraction you can.
I have REPEATEDLY confirmed in a lot of posts on this forum since Ive been a member here that I use probably more than a dozen bible versions total.

We were told to keep the personal remarks out of this.
If you continue I start reporting you until a mod does something about it. Am I clear enough for you....are you reading this ?.....or is this just one more post that benoni will blind himself to ?

Heres SOME of the versions I use..

Rom 8:11

(ASV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(BBE) But if the Spirit of him who made Jesus come again from the dead is in you, he who made Christ Jesus come again from the dead will in the same way, through his Spirit which is in you, give life to your bodies which now are under the power of death.

(CEV) Yet God raised Jesus to life! God's Spirit now lives in you, and he will raise you to life by his Spirit.

(DRB) And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ, from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(EMTV) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit indwelling in you.

(ESV) If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

(ISV) And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you.

(KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(LITV) But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.

(MKJV) But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

(RV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(Webster) But if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised Christ from the dead will also revive your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(WNT) And if the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus from the dead is dwelling in you, He who raised up Christ from the dead will give Life also to your mortal bodies because of His Spirit who dwells in you.

(YLT) and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

 

[follower of Christ]

I agree, post any topic anyting you want too, how else can truth be exposted; lets talk about it instead of close our minds to it.

While you and mondar may enjoy having to REPOST the SAME material over and again in 17 different new threads a week on the SAME exact topic, SOME of US here have other things we'd prefer to be doing.

So if YOU dont have anything to do with YOUR time, and mondar doesnt either, thats fine, but those of us who DO would like to see this crap confined to ONE thread so we dont have to keep reposting the same posts over and over and over.

The point is we HAVE talked about THIS topic in what...three other recent threads now ?
How many more threads do we need on this EXACT topic this week in order to talk about it ?

Since the rules dont stop me from doing so, apparently, maybe I should go ahead and start another dozen or so threads on mans free will and keep them bumped so we can keep talking about this precise topic in all of them and you will have to REpost your same material in all of them instead of just having to do so ONCE and be done with it

Some people will use insults and language so they can get a thread locked down becasus they are lost for words and cannot defend the undefendable.

look in a mirror...

 

[follower of Christ]

What I believe is carnal man can choose many things, but he cannot choose his salvation; it takes God’s Spirit to draw us, quicken us then and only then can we believe.

Which no one that Ive seen here disagrees with, friend.
Where we DO disagree is your distortion that Gods 'drawing' means He 'forces' men to follow Him when scripture shows conclusively that He doesnt.

(Eph. 2) This is the overall view of what has taken place; I have stated there is not one verse in the Bible that states that man has a freewill or choice when it comes to salvation.

Which is a falsehood.
Ive provided a NUMBER of times here that man CAN CHOOSE to REJECT God/Salvation...
Can man reject God/salvation? >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181

Follower on the other hand does not agree so he has posted anything and everything that has the words “will, choose, as well as the freewill offering in the OT; but none of this verse has anything to with salvation.

Bogus nonsense.
Follower has provided proof that you are wrong when you claim that free will is nowhere in scripture...
>>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257

And follower has provided that using that free will man CAN reject God/salvation...
>>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Which does NOT SAY that man CANNOT reject Him...the ONLY thing that is shown here is that man cannot come UNTIL the FAther draws him.

The words translated "draw" and "drew" in the Greek New Testament are HELKUO and HELKO. Each of these words has the basic meaning of "compel ... .. draw," "pull," and "tug." In most instances the force which does the drawing or compelling is sufficient to cause the object of the drawing to respond fully. For example, in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..." The impetuous disciple most assuredly did not draw the weapon out of its sheath in a gingerly or wooing fashion. Nor did the sword seek to draw itself out by its own will and good pleasure! Peter didn't merely "invite" the sword to come out, in spite of any resistance the blade may have had as it dragged the leather scabbard, the muscular arm of Peter yanked it forcefully out in obedience to his will.

blah blah blah....and the CONTEXT of the REST of scripture PROVES that man CAN reject God and salvation...so you are MISunderstanding something here and distorting ONE word to try to force your view into the scriptures that, as a WHOLE, they do not agree with...

Eight times the word draw is used in the Bible and never is there any indication of choice.

Irrelevant.
In THOSE cases it may NOT be about choice. That DOESNT negate that the WHOLE of scripture shows that man DOES have a choice to reject God and salvation...

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

The irresistible power of God’s Spirit drawing us is not such a evil thing as Believer tries to make it sound.

Sorry but scripture doesnt say it is irresistible and *IF* it were then the Hebrews writer is a liar..

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

Now if believer would just produce a verse which he cannot then this whole matter can be put to rest. He is trying to force God's Word to say what he wants it to say. Might work for a lot of people but it does not work for me.

Sorry gent but regardless of how many threads are created for this pathetic topic and regardless of how many times you and I have to repeat this same nonsense over and over the answers will continue to be the same...man DOES have a CHOICE to reject God and salvation WHEN the Father draws....

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

[quote="follower of Christ":2dt0kxjv]
No offense to you DS, but this crap has to stop.
The mods have locked down a thread or two on this topic and we've had 3 or 4 here in the last two weeks.

No offense taken. I just didn't realize or perhaps take the time to look and see if there were other threads about this topic. I was surprised to come home from work about 7 hours after I posted this topic to see the thread was 7 pages long. I guess that shows it was something worth discussing. I wonder why the other 3 or 4 threads of this same nature didn't have as many responses as this one does?

I apologize for starting a new thread about this.[/quote:2dt0kxjv]
Dave, come on bro....YOU started these;
Will God go against our free will?
How free is our will?
...neither of which did you actually DISCUSS the topic in...hit and run posting is all I see. No real intent to discuss anything...which means that you are, for some reason, just trying to drive up your post count.

So you knew that you had already created a free will thread, brother.
And frankly, what is worse is that you keep starting these threads and in most of them you arent even sticking around to actually discuss the topic.
Moderation needs to limit us to maybe ONE thread started per day or something. That way you or I cant bombard this forum with 17 new threads a week.
Ive been watching you here and I can see that you just keep posting new threads all over this forum and dont really seem to be interested in discussing the topic half the time.

 

[Benoni]

This is all spin and nonsense. You spin my verses and say nothing worth while; but I am still waiting for a verse from you that shows me man can save his own soul with his own frew will before God quickens him?

Actually it is two words, “quicken, and drawâ€Â.

And again, to quicken is to make alive.

G2227
ζÉοÀοιέÉ
zÃ…ÂopoieÃ…Â
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively): - make alive, give life, quicken.

So the Father DRAWS a man and when that man REPENTS he is made ALIVE spiritually.
Not complicated at all.
[quote:28tddg4a] I have showed the context of these verses as well how they are defined.
I have demonstrated how the word draw is written in the scriptures in different passages, and in context; plus I have quoted the Greek in both words.

No, you have offered your distortion of the words over and again.

You’re the one who cannot product one verse to prove man has a freewill or choice when it comes to His own salvation.

Sure did. You apparently have selective vision.
Hebrews shows conclusively that man can REJECT God and salvation...ie they CHOOSE to do so when the choice is presented.

I have even agreed with you that carnal man is free to sin,

You have simply altered your view just enough to try to keep from being in blantant error.

buy a car or what every he wants to do when it comes to small matters. But he did not choose his parents, his color of skin or his country; and he sure did not choose his salvation.

Here we go with this nonsense again.
We do not have TOTAL free will, friend...weve been thru this tripe already.
We DO have free will to choose in the choices we CAN make.
I CANT choose my parents.
I CAN choose to put on my shoes.
Learn the difference then get back with me.

Your so called "context of whole" which you claim you have posted, has nothing to do with man having a freewill or choice towards his salvation.

It certainly does. That you are unable to see it or agree to it doesnt nullify it.

If this is true stop playing games and get down to business and show me?

Give a rest, friend. Youve BEEN shown a hundred times in these multiple threads by many of us here. You just keep pretending like you havent.[/quote:28tddg4a]

 

[Benoni]

Sure did. You apparently have selective vision.
Hebrews shows conclusively that man can REJECT God and salvation...ie they CHOOSE to do so when the choice is presented.

Don't talk about Hebrews show me?

 

[follower of Christ]

This is all spin and nonsense. You spin my verses and say nothing worth while;

yeah yeah...anytime you cant actually refute anything its 'spin'.
Get a new line :biglol

Scriptural Evidence provided by FoC;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479694
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479696
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479697
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479699
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479700

 

[Benoni]

Give a rest, friend. Youve BEEN shown a hundred times in these multiple threads by many of us here. You just keep pretending like you havent.

Why would I give you a rest, you post, you post and you post but never do you post anything that proves your point, your just trying to close down the thread because you have nothing to say but nonense. You cannot force your opion with nonsense.


Titus 3

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Notice but according to his mercy he saved us, not ours

 

[follower of Christ]

Benoni: "but I am still waiting for a verse from you that shows me man can save his own soul with his own frew will before God quickens him?

Im still waiting for you to stop playing games with these pathetic strawmen...

Once more (and I need to copy this into my notes so I wont have to retype it again for the next time you make the bogus claim)....NO ONE HERE IS CLAIMING THAT MAN CAN SAVE HIMSELF.
Is that clear enough this time ? Maybe I should type it in bigger letters ?

Say it with me..
WHEN the Father DRAWS THEN a man is offered the CHOICE to REPENT or CONTINUE in REBELLION.

Was that plain enough for you benoni ?
I mean, my 8 year old nephew got it the first time around.

Scriptural Evidence provided by FoC;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479694
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479696
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479697
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479699
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479700

 

[follower of Christ]

Give a rest, friend. Youve BEEN shown a hundred times in these multiple threads by many of us here. You just keep pretending like you havent.

Why would I give you a rest, you post, you post and you post but never do you post anything that proves your point, your just trying to close down the thread because you have nothing to say but nonense. You cannot force your opion with nonsense.


Titus 3

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Notice but according to his mercy he saved us, not ours

Very good
Nothing 'righteous' WE can DO earns us salvation...it is ONLY thru HIS mercy that He OFFERS us the choice to repent or continue in rebellion. :yes

Scriptural Evidence provided by FoC;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479694
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479696
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479697
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479699
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479700

 

[Benoni]

Here we go with this nonsense again.
We do not have TOTAL free will, friend...weve been thru this tripe already.
We DO have free will to choose in the choices we CAN make.
I CANT choose my parents.
I CAN choose to put on my shoes.
Learn the difference then get back with me.

Did you choose your parents, your country, your color of skin?
Yes you can choose a pair of choose; big deal... The big things in life you have no choice to include your salvation; unless of course you can back it with God's Word?

 

[Benoni]

Very good
Nothing 'righteous' WE can DO earns us salvation...it is ONLY thru HIS mercy that He OFFERS us the choice to repent or continue in rebellion.

Well then prove it with God's Word instead of your wordds.

 

[Benoni]

Say it with me..
WHEN the Father DRAWS THEN a man is offered the CHOICE to REPENT or CONTINUE in REBELLION.


If this is true then prove it with God's Word not your words.

 

[Benoni]

Was that plain enough for you benoni ?
I mean, my 8 year old nephew got it the first time around.

An eight year old also would know that if it is not in God's Word it is false doctrine.

 

[follower of Christ]

Did you choose your parents, your country, your color of skin?
Yes you can choose a pair of choose; big deal... The big things in life you have no choice to include your salvation; unless of course you can back it with God's Word?

oh good grief...over and over and over again with this absurdity.

We do NOT HAVE TOTAL FREE WILL.
I CANNOT choose my parents or to fly into the sun.

I CAN choose within the parameters provided me by my Creator.
And WHEN the Father DRAWS I am OFFERED the choice of REPENTING or CONTINUING in REBELLION.

:crazy

Scriptural Evidence provided by FoC;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479694
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479696
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479697
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479699
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479700

 

[Benoni]

So the Father DRAWS a man and when that man REPENTS he is made ALIVE spiritually.
Not complicated at all.

Wow we agree on one small thing.

 

[follower of Christ]

Say it with me..
WHEN the Father DRAWS THEN a man is offered the CHOICE to REPENT or CONTINUE in REBELLION.


If this is true then prove it with God's Word not your words.

:crazy
Mans free will >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257
Mans choice to reject God and salvation >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181

Scriptural Evidence provided by FoC;
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479694
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479696
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479697
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479699
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39779#p479700

 

[follower of Christ]

Very good
Nothing 'righteous' WE can DO earns us salvation...it is ONLY thru HIS mercy that He OFFERS us the choice to repent or continue in rebellion.

Well then prove it with God's Word instead of your wordds.

:crazy
Mans free will >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257
Mans choice to reject God and salvation >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181

 

[Benoni]

I CAN choose within the parameters provided me by my Creator.
And WHEN the Father DRAWS I am OFFERED the choice of REPENTING or CONTINUING in REBELLION

That is not what John 6:44 says "I am OFFERED the choice of REPENTING or CONTINUING in REBELLION". You are adding to the verse with for no reason but to push your false doctrine. Adding to God's Word.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.