Does the Holy Spirit move after Acts?

[Butch5]

I've addressed it many times. Asked everyone who doesn't believe many questions, but never get any response. I'm not defending any doctrine, only defending that the Holy Spirit is still alive. Many have concluded there is no more Holy Spirit. Many have acted like there's no more reason for faith with deeds.

All I continue to get is one verse, yes one verse about how that which has perfect has come. Which could very easily be twisted, because the word is taken way out of context.

How about my verse about the "end of times"? Just answer that one verse AND THEN I will be satisfied. Everyone just seems to ignore it like it's not there, because it doesn't fit their doctrine. I tell you satan comes like an angel of light to deceive His people, don't be deceived!

Hi Justin,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think people are saying the Holy Spirit isn't alive today. There is a difference between the Holy Spirit being alive and the Holy Spirit giving people the gifts. We need to look at the Scriptures to determine what they say regarding this issue. Which Scripture passages is it (end times) that you are referring to? I'll look at it and address it the best I can. All of these issues must be determined based on Scripture and not what we feel or think we see. As you said, Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive people. The thing is that Paul said the Anti-Christ would come at the end with lying signs and wonders.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2Th 2:8-10 KJV)

As I said, I've studied this issue and the only mention I see of signs and wonders at the end times is passages such as this by Paul. I've written a paper on this topic and I'll give you the link if you wish to read it. As I said, I believe the miraculous gifts have ceased and the paper reflects that. However, in it I've gone back to the OT and shown where these gifts were foretold and their purpose.

Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose

 

[Butch5]

you sure focus in on justin i asked how you view the plan of salvation

I've focused on Justin because he said he was seeking the truth of Scripture. What in particular would you like to know?

 

[Deborah13]

i know of a gospel singer tony green that was healed of a kidney disease after a kidney donated by his wife. some time later another sickness hit him and he passed away. these things happen we can not explain it. its not the laying of hands or the person its the prayer of faith . our body was created to die* my mom was healed of cancer only later on to get Alzheimer.. God Did miraculous heal her of cancer. it could have been GOD spared your dad for a period of time. to allow him to get things in order or testify to family ..we will never know

Satan is the one who makes us sick. When someone is healed that doesn't mean that Satan is going to quit. He is a thief, he will steal anything from us that he can. He'll steal our health, our loved ones, our money, our marriages, our churches, anything that makes us happy. Then he tries to make us think that God did it or allowed it or that it was our own fault caused by sin in our lives.
HE is a LIAR

 

[ezra]

I've focused on Justin because he said he was seeking the truth of Scripture. What in particular would you like to know?

well 1st off what makes you say you have the truth others dont. the plan of salvation how do you view as one to be saved?

 

[ezra]

Satan is the one who makes us sick. When someone is healed that doesn't mean that Satan is going to quit. He is a thief, he will steal anything from us that he can. He'll steal our health, our loved ones, our money, our marriages, our churches, anything that makes us happy. Then he tries to make us think that God did it or allowed it or that it was our own fault caused by sin in our lives.
HE is a LIAR

while satan helped the cause of sickness adam and eve got the sickness to the Body.

He is a thief, he will steal anything from us that he can. He'll steal our health, our loved ones, our money, our marriages, our churches, anything that makes us happy. Then he tries to make us think that God did it or allowed it or that it was our own fault caused by sin in our lives.

this i agree with*

 

[ezra]

Hi Justin,

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think people are saying the Holy Spirit isn't alive today. There is a difference between the Holy Spirit being alive and the Holy Spirit giving people the gifts. We need to look at the Scriptures to determine what they say regarding this issue. Which Scripture passages is it (end times) that you are referring to? I'll look at it and address it the best I can. All of these issues must be determined based on Scripture and not what we feel or think we see. As you said, Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive people. The thing is that Paul said the Anti-Christ would come at the end with lying signs and wonders.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2Th 2:8-10 KJV)

As I said, I've studied this issue and the only mention I see of signs and wonders at the end times is passages such as this by Paul. I've written a paper on this topic and I'll give you the link if you wish to read it. As I said, I believe the miraculous gifts have ceased and the paper reflects that. However, in it I've gone back to the OT and shown where these gifts were foretold and their purpose.

Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose

There is a difference between the Holy Spirit being alive and the Holy Spirit giving people the gifts. We need to look at the Scriptures to determine what they say regarding this issue.

i have yet to see where the Gifts of the Spirit no longer are needed or used. show scripture to back this up. because i dont find it

 

[Free]

Satan is the one who makes us sick.

Not the only one though. There are any number of chemicals and pollutants, genetic defects and unhealthy lifestyle choices that also largely contribute to our sickness.

He'll steal our....money

More often than not we give it away through greed and materialism.

 

[rrowell]

It does? How do you know? It could easily be referring to something that had already come and was going to come again.

One clue, the lack of the word "again".

Not that it matters to the discussion but where does the Bible ever mention that the Church is perfect? It seems to imply the very opposite, hence the necessity of the very letter we're looking at.

Ephesians 5:27 (KJV)
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The "perfect" Paul speaks of is not the "word of God." How can it be? Let's look at the context:

1Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (ESV)

The very fact we're having this discussion, the fact that there is so much disagreement among Christians regarding what the Bible says, completely does away with the notion that the "perfect" is the Bible. Does anyone "know fully, even as [they] have been fully known"? No, no one does. Not even close. We all still only "see in a mirror dimly" and "know in part".

The "perfect" is most likely that time after the Judgement when believers are raised and given knowledge of all things, when all mysteries are revealed, and all will have the clarity of "vision" as being face to face.

The purpose of he Gospel IS to reveal the mystery:

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV)
25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Lets look at it in more depth... the word "perfect" is used exactly 60 times in the New Testament, this particular Greek word that is translated "perfect" in THIS verse is " τελειον", it is used exactly 7 times in the New Testament, lets see the context used, we will start with the verse in question, now don't just look at the word, but the context it is used and what the Adjective describes:

1 Corinthians 13:10 (KJV)
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Romans 12:2 (KJV)
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV)
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Colossians 1:28 (KJV)
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

James 1:2-6 (KJV)
2. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:17-18 (KJV)
17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

James 1:25 (KJV)
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Every verse with the word of the exact same inflection refers to pretty much this:

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Also know as the Bible.

 

[Free]

One clue, the lack of the word "again".

It does not need to say "again".

Ephesians 5:27 (KJV)
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

This is speaking of the future. The Church is not perfect now.

The purpose of he Gospel IS to reveal the mystery:

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV)
25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Lets look at it in more depth... the word "perfect" is used exactly 60 times in the New Testament, this particular Greek word that is translated "perfect" in THIS verse is "

τελειον", it is used exactly 7 times in the New Testament, lets see the context used, we will start with the verse in question, now don't just look at the word, but the context it is used and what the Adjective describes:

1 Corinthians 13:10 (KJV)
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Romans 12:2 (KJV)
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV)
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Colossians 1:28 (KJV)
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

James 1:2-6 (KJV)
2. My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 1:17-18 (KJV)
17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

James 1:25 (KJV)
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Every verse with the word of the exact same inflection refers to pretty much this:

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Also know as the Bible.

You are still committing the same exegetical fallacy. You are also not dealing with my argument that since everything in the Church in far from perfect, since we clearly do not "know fully" and only "in part", the "perfect" cannot have come. It simply cannot in any way be referring to the Bible.

 

[rrowell]

It does not need to say "again".

This is speaking of the future. The Church is not perfect now.

The Church is perfect, it is the Bride of Christ, but not everyone in the assembly is perfect that's why we need that which is perfect to teach us, the Bible:

Titus 1:16 (KJV)
16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

You are still committing the same exegetical fallacy. You are also not dealing with my argument that since everything in the Church in far from perfect, since we clearly do not "know fully" and only "in part", the "perfect" cannot have come. It simply cannot in any way be referring to the Bible.

You keep claiming I use "exegetical fallacy", I am quoting scripture, If I am wrong I wish to be right so I would rather you show me with scripture rather than opinion.

 

[Butch5]

well 1st off what makes you say you have the truth others dont. the plan of salvation how do you view as one to be saved?

Where did I say I have the truth and others don't?

Salvation is a process that begins when one chooses to follow Christ and it comes to a conclusion at the resurrection. When one believes they enter into a relationship with Christ. If they continue in the relationship they will be saved, if they don't they won't be saved.

 

[Butch5]

It does not need to say "again".
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This is speaking of the future. The Church is not perfect now.


You are still committing the same exegetical fallacy. You are also not dealing with my argument that since everything in the Church in far from perfect, since we clearly do not "know fully" and only "in part", the "perfect" cannot have come. It simply cannot in any way be referring to the Bible.

Hi Free,

I'd like to suggest something for consideration. Suppose when Paul said we know in part he was referring to the aposltes or those to whom he was writing and not all Christians.

 

[Butch5]

i have yet to see where the Gifts of the Spirit no longer are needed or used. show scripture to back this up. because i dont find it

Hi ezra,

I didn't say they were needed. I said I believe they are given. There are a lot of things needed in the church that aren't given. Did you read the paper? It give a lot of Scripture.

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by ezra
i have yet to see where the Gifts of the Spirit no longer are needed or used. show scripture to back this up. because i dont find it

Nobody said that I am aware of that the Spirit is no longer needed.

The Spirit is all around everyman ready and willing to guide him to the word of God the moment he opens his eyes and or ears. He is the penman of the Holy Scripture.

When one obeys ALL what he has heard (not one command that leads to salvation but ALL including water baptism) then the moment he (the man) comes up out of the watery grave remitting his sins, we are given the Gift (the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

it is then and only then you are sealed per Ephesians 1:13.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

The Church is perfect, it is the Bride of Christ, but not everyone in the assembly is perfect that's why we need that which is perfect to teach us, the Bible:

Titus 1:16 (KJV)
16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


You keep claiming I use "exegetical fallacy", I am quoting scripture, If I am wrong I wish to be right so I would rather you show me with scripture rather than opinion.

"1But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. " 2nd Timothy 3:1-7

Again... I'm tried of copy and pasting this verse haha. What is God saying in these verses?

Where did I say I have the truth and others don't?

Salvation is a process that begins when one chooses to follow Christ and it comes to a conclusion at the resurrection. When one believes they enter into a relationship with Christ. If they continue in the relationship they will be saved, if they don't they won't be saved.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy, He saves us" Titus 3:5

salvation IS NOT a process. Salvation is the entrance into the Kingdom.

Nobody said that I am aware of that the Spirit is no longer needed.

The Spirit is all around everyman ready and willing to guide him to the word of God the moment he opens his eyes and or ears. He is the penman of the Holy Scripture.

When one obeys ALL what he has heard (not one command that leads to salvation but ALL including water baptism) then the moment he (the man) comes up out of the watery grave remitting his sins, we are given the Gift (the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

it is then and only then you are sealed per Ephesians 1:13.

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

"The Spirit is all around everyman ready and willing to guide him to the word of God the moment he opens his eyes and or ears. He is the penman of the Holy Scripture." So Your saying here that the Holy Spirit actually doesn't ever do anything other than inspire you to read Scripture. I feel bad for you, because you don't believe what God has mentioned over and over and over again.

Your verse"38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

You just proved yourself wrong, Eph 1 doesn't say you need water baptism. In fact many verses just say confess and believe. Water baptism is a command not a requirement for salvation, there is a difference. Though this issue isn't nearly as important as understanding the Holy Spirit.

 

[Blev]

Your verse"38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

You just proved yourself wrong, Eph 1 doesn't say you need water baptism. In fact many verses just say confess and believe. Water baptism is a command not a requirement for salvation, there is a difference. Though this issue isn't nearly as important as understanding the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 is a command, and says you SHALL recieve the Holy Ghost. It's not a suggestion to recieve Holy Spirit, its a command :D

 

[BornAgain]

Acts 2:38 is a command, and says you SHALL recieve the Holy Ghost. It's not a suggestion to recieve Holy Spirit, its a command :D

Correct, but how do you receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[Blev]

Correct, but how do you receive the Holy Spirit?

How did you recieve salvation?

 

[BornAgain]

How did you recieve salvation?

How do you receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[rrowell]

"1But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. " 2nd Timothy 3:1-7

You guys just can't get your time and space right... the "last days" were the time this was penned as much as it is today, The word here is the same as in Acts 2:17 where Peter refers to the Christian age or the age of the church on earth.

Acts 2:17 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Again... I'm tried of copy and pasting this verse haha.

Your not alone there :yes...

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy, He saves us" Titus 3:5

salvation IS NOT a process. Salvation is the entrance into the Kingdom.

Nothing new in Titus 3:5, it paralleled here:

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Here:

1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV)
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Here:

Ephesians 5:25-26 (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Here:

Ephesians 5:26 (KJV)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Here:

John 3:6 (KJV)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here:

Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Need I go on?

Your verse"38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

You just proved yourself wrong, Eph 1 doesn't say you need water baptism. In fact many verses just say confess and believe. Water baptism is a command not a requirement for salvation, there is a difference. Though this issue isn't nearly as important as understanding the Holy Spirit.

Again, you have this time issue and who was being spoken to...

Mark does, but you only believe it to be a half truth. I think YOU should read your Bible.

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.