Does the Holy Spirit move after Acts?

[Blev]

Satan is the one who makes us sick. When someone is healed that doesn't mean that Satan is going to quit. He is a thief, he will steal anything from us that he can. He'll steal our health, our loved ones, our money, our marriages, our churches, anything that makes us happy. Then he tries to make us think that God did it or allowed it or that it was our own fault caused by sin in our lives.
HE is a LIAR

Right on!

 

[Blev]

How do you receive the Holy Spirit?

I am asking you how you recieved salvation for a reason. If you tell me, then I will tell you how to recieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[BornAgain]

I am asking you how you recieved salvation for a reason. If you tell me, then I will tell you how to recieve the Holy Spirit.

Did I say I received salvation? I asked you a question...you did not answer.

 

[Blev]

Did I say I received salvation? I asked you a question...you did not answer.

So you are not saved?
Salvation means saved.

 

[rrowell]

So you are not saved?
Salvation means saved.

Are you saved? if so at what point were you saved (give me scripture please)?

 

[Blev]

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

 

[Blev]

Did I say I received salvation? I asked you a question...you did not answer.

I was trying to make a point there. Didn't you recieve Jesus into your life? If you have then you can recieve the Holy Spirit the same way. Believe and recieve

 

[ezra]

How do you receive the Holy Spirit?

it is given at the new birth.

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

Acts 2:38 is a command, and says you SHALL recieve the Holy Ghost. It's not a suggestion to recieve Holy Spirit, its a command :D

I stand corrected.

Correct, but how do you receive the Holy Spirit?

Like the verse above, repent and believe, then you are sealed. BUT (big but) God tells us to ask for more of the Holy Spirit. Paul also says to stir up the gifts inside.

You guys just can't get your time and space right... the "last days" were the time this was penned as much as it is today, The word here is the same as in Acts 2:17 where Peter refers to the Christian age or the age of the church on earth.

Acts 2:17 (KJV)
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


Your not alone there :yes...


Nothing new in Titus 3:5, it paralleled here:

Galatians 3:27 (KJV)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Here:

1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV)
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Here:

Ephesians 5:25-26 (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Here:

Ephesians 5:26 (KJV)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Here:

John 3:6 (KJV)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here:

Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Need I go on?


Again, you have this time issue and who was being spoken to...

Mark does, but you only believe it to be a half truth. I think YOU should read your Bible.

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Your right, God is still pouring out His Spirit in the "last days". I experience it all the time. I guess it's something we'll have to agree to disagree. I just want to help you "experience" and "know" God in an intimiate way. Nobody can convince me that the miracles I've seen was not of the Holy Spirit. Just the opposite, I'm trying to help others see the "truth" or as you put it; my opinion.

The last thing I want to do rrowell is argue, because we'll never get anywhere. As far as the requirement to be baptized before your saved...well even in the verses you've given me, I still don't "see" or "believe" that.

One thing to note concerning baptism; be "baptized in the name of Jesus" can very likely be referring to a Spiritual baptism. If your baptized in the name of John, it's only water. Also, the only thing Jews had to do to be forgiven of sins was to shed blood, not dunk themselves in water. I believe this is true for the NT and stand firm on that because I've seen people filled with the Holy Spirit before they were ever baptized in water.

All of these things I say out of experience and evidence with my natural eyes and my personal walk with Christ. Love ya brother, no hard feelings ;)

 

[BornAgain]

So you are not saved?
Salvation means saved.

Hi,

Yes, but anybody can fall from a "saved" position...I was just trying to find out how you were saved but our beliefs are different on that. Thanks for answering my question though. :p

 

[BornAgain]

it is given at the new birth.

Yes, I received the Gift of the Holy Spirit when I was baptized....

 

[Butch5]

I stand corrected.

Like the verse above, repent and believe, then you are sealed. BUT (big but) God tells us to ask for more of the Holy Spirit. Paul also says to stir up the gifts inside.



Your right, God is still pouring out His Spirit in the "last days". I experience it all the time. I guess it's something we'll have to agree to disagree. I just want to help you "experience" and "know" God in an intimiate way. Nobody can convince me that the miracles I've seen was not of the Holy Spirit. Just the opposite, I'm trying to help others see the "truth" or as you put it; my opinion.

The last thing I want to do rrowell is argue, because we'll never get anywhere. As far as the requirement to be baptized before your saved...well even in the verses you've given me, I still don't "see" or "believe" that.

One thing to note concerning baptism; be "baptized in the name of Jesus" can very likely be referring to a Spiritual baptism. If your baptized in the name of John, it's only water. Also, the only thing Jews had to do to be forgiven of sins was to shed blood, not dunk themselves in water. I believe this is true for the NT and stand firm on that because I've seen people filled with the Holy Spirit before they were ever baptized in water.

All of these things I say out of experience and evidence with my natural eyes and my personal walk with Christ. Love ya brother, no hard feelings

Hi Justin,

I'd like to suggest that one's "experiences" don't trump the word of God. As you've pointed out Satan can deceive those who are not aware of his devices.

11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.(2Co 2:11 KJV)

As I've pointed out Paul warned the Thessalonians to be on guard because in the end times there will be lying signs and wonders. If you will look at the Scriptures with an open mind you will find that the only mention of signs and wonders in the end are lying signs and wonders. The only exception to this is the two prophets that are sent by God at the tribulation.

That's not to say that the miracles you've seen aren't from God they probably are. However, as I've pointed out God performing a miracle doesn't mean He's given a gift to someone. God does miracles all of the time, however, that doesn't mean He's dispensing the gifts. For instance, the church leaders may lay hands on some and pray and that person may be healed. God has done a miracle, however, that doesn't mean these church leaders can now lay hands on everyone in the church and they'll all be healed. In the New Testament Jesus and that apostles simply came upon people and healed them, 'Rise up and walk.' We don't see that today.

Another thing I'd like you to consider is this. If the signs and gifts are still active wouldn't they all be active? From what I've seen Christians only seem to claim the subjective gifts not the objective gifts. For instance, you see someone who says they are sick and someone lays hands on them and low and behold they're healed. We're left with a few questions. Were they really sick, if so, how sick? Do we know for a fact that this person really was sick or is it something that was just claimed, what about 6 months from now will still be "Healed" of that condition. Studies have shown that many people who claim to be healed later die of the very thing they supposedly were healed from. I call these gifts subjective because it's really hard to determine if the facts are true. On the other there are the gifts I call objective. These are the ones that can easily be validated. For instance, in Mark 16 Jesus said.

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mar 16:18 KJV)

It's been my experience that Christians don't claim to have either of these. It would be very easy to validate these. A Christian could simply drink some deadly thing and go on about life unaffected. Everyone would easily see that he didn't die. That would be easily see, yet, I've not met Christian yet who claims the gifts and said he had either of those. To me that's a red flag because we have examples of this. Paul was bitten by a poisonous viper and had no ill effects and it is also recorded as happening in early church history when the gifts were still around.

I'd also like to suggest a different approach to the Scriptures. You said you were seeking truth. I'm not so sure that is the case as I read some of your posts. It seems to me that you are defending the positions you already hold. However, if you are seeking the truth I’d like suggest to you something to consider. No one in the NT gives a list of how to be saved. No one says to go down a list and check off, x, y, and z. For instance Paul says in Romans 8, "we are saved by hope." In Ephesians 2:8 He says we are saved by grace. Peter said in 1 Peter 3:21 that "baptism does now save us." It's not an either or, it's a combination of all. We must go through the Scriptures and look at "ALL" of the passages that deal with salvation put all of the elements together and then we can see how salvation is worked out. As I said, Paul said, Paul also said in Romans 10 that one is confess. We don't take one verse and say this is salvation and ignore other verses. To say one only needs to believe to be saved and ignore Jesus' words Mark 16, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved" is not the proper way to exegete the Scriptures. We must take all of the passages that deal with a issue. Baptism is tied to salvation in several places in the NT. Jesus tied the two in John 3. Paul tied the two together in Romans 6, Titus 3 and Ephesians 5, Peter tied the two together in 1 Peter 3 and Second Peter 1. All of these passages must also be taken into account when forming the doctrine of salvation.

The Scriptures also need to be understood in the context they were written in. This is the reason for the difficulties you're seeing among Christians. Most Christians are taught what the Scriptures say and accept it without doing any serious study of their own.

Paul also says to stir up the gifts inside.

Paul doesn't tell us that, he told the Corinthians that. Context is of the utmost importance, without it one can make a passage say anything they want it to say. If we are going to understand the Scriptures properly we "Must" understand them the same way original audience would understand them. You've got to remember that Paul is writing to a church where the gifts are active. They were active in Paul's day. His instructions are for a church using the gifts. One would expect this since most of the Corinthians in the Church were originally pagans. They didn't know what these gifts were or their purpose. However Paul's instructions to them in no way assume that 21st century Christians will still have these gifts. Especially since he's told the Corinthians they would cease. In Chapter 13 Paul tells the Corinthians "we know in part." He didn't have the full revelation yet that God would reveal. He knew the gifts would cease but didn't know when. I submit to you that Paul thought the gifts would end rather soon since he is explaining the very fact that they would. There probably wouldn't be much purpose in explaining to the Corinthians’ that the gifts would end if he knew they wouldn't end for 2000 years. Yet he tells the that Prophecy, tongues and Knowledge will cease, and faith, love, and hope, will continue. Again, it's imperative that the Scriptures be understood in context. If you really are seeking the truth you "Must" interpret the Scriptures as the original audience would or you simply won't come to the truth.

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

Hi Justin,

I'd like to suggest that one's "experiences" don't trump the word of God. As you've pointed out Satan can deceive those who are not aware of his devices.

My experience doesn’t trump the Word of God. I never said such a thing so please don’t put words in my mouth. It nearly compliments what the Word has meant to so many Christians out there. Maybe not in your little Christian circle, but in the one I’m in I see these signs and wonders all the time. Though, not as you state it. These are from God and Him alone! It’s also funny how you say “end times†only mentions the signs being from satan. There are many verses that use “end times†along with these miracles especially the one I keep on mentioning, but you ignore them if it doesn’t fit your agenda.

That's not to say that the miracles you've seen aren't from God they probably are. However, as I've pointed out God performing a miracle doesn't mean He's given a gift to someone. God does miracles all of the time, however, that doesn't mean He's dispensing the gifts.

Last I checked God works through His people. I hear about Jesus here on earth walking around laying hands on people. In OT and NT God uses people of faith. People without faith are never used. I highly recommend you read Hebrews 11:1 - 12:2

Studies have shown that many people who claim to be healed later die of the very thing they supposedly were healed from?†Whose studies? I have friends who’ve seen the dead raised, go tell them that! The deaf boy who God healed can still hear, and as for myself, I can still walk upstairs.

8 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mar 16:18 KJV)â€
“It's been my experience that Christians don't claim to have either of these. It would be very easy to validate these.â€

Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Mat 16:4b (NIV) "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign."

You said you were seeking truth. I'm not so sure that is the case as I read some of your posts. It seems to me that you are defending the positions you already hold. However, if you are seeking the truth I’d like suggest to you something to consider. No one in the NT gives a list of how to be saved. No one says to go down a list and check off, x, y, and z. For instance Paul says in Romans 8, "we are saved by hope." In Ephesians 2:8 He says we are saved by grace. Peter said in 1 Peter 3:21 that "baptism does now save us." It's not an either or, it's a combination of all. We must go through the Scriptures and look at "ALL" of the passages that deal with salvation put all of the elements together and then we can see how salvation is worked out.

I already quoted Titus 3:5 saying it’s not by works, than your claiming that I’ve given some sort of check list? Clearly your mistaken, and then said for yourself that we are to put all of them together for the checklist to make it to heaven. It contradicts Titus 3:5 How about my statement earlier? Baptize in the name of Jesus = Spirit Baptism because that would make a whole lot more sense! Considering if we do not have the Spirit we are hell bound, it is the very thing that seals us. Simple enough a child can understand this.

Paul doesn't tell us that, he told the Corinthians that. Context is of the utmost importance, without it one can make a passage say anything they want it to say. If we are going to understand the Scriptures properly we "Must" understand them the same way original audience would understand them. You've got to remember that Paul is writing to a church where the gifts are active. They were active in Paul's day.

The Bible appears to be just a history book for you, but for me it’s alive!
So your saying God’s plan died when the 12 apostles died in the flesh?

The gifts are still here and just because you don’t notice them or don’t have the faith to receive it yourself, doesn’t mean God doesn’t want to us His people to reach out to this lost and dyeing world. That was the original plan for God to send Jesus so we could receive the Holy Spirit. in the OT anyone who had the Holy Spirit inside them had “giftsâ€. It’s why I stated earlier do you believe the Holy Spirit lives inside us? As far as I can gather your against the move of the Spirit and grieving the Holy Spirit. Maybe it’s cause your taught wrong, or just believe the Bible is a history book?

Especially since he's told the Corinthians they would cease.

Everything your doctrine means relies on this one verse, which is clearly misread because it contradicts the Word of God.

Do take the time to read Hebrews 11:1 – 12:2 again. It’s an encouraging to all believers! ☺

2Th 2:9 (NKJ) The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.

Sidenote:
Can you think of a counterfeit miracle? I quickly think of all the quack doctors that live here In the Philippines. Sad part is sometimes people do get temporary relief so people continue to go back to them.

I believe the end times “anti Christ†will do big miraculous signs to even fool His elect. Maybe fire from heaven? He is the prince of the air.

 

[Butch5]

My experience doesn’t trump the Word of God. I never said such a thing so please don’t put words in my mouth. It nearly compliments what the Word has meant to so many Christians out there. Maybe not in your little Christian circle, but in the one I’m in I see these signs and wonders all the time. Though, not as you state it. These are from God and Him alone! It’s also funny how you say “end times†only mentions the signs being from satan. There are many verses that use “end times†along with these miracles especially the one I keep on mentioning, but you ignore them if it doesn’t fit your agenda.

I didn’t put words in your mouth. I didn’t say you said that, I said it. You continue to insist that the miracles are from God, yet you’ve given nothing to support this claim.
I’ve asked you several times to present the passages that you are speaking of yet you’ve not presented me with any and then accused me of ignoring tiem.

Last I checked God works through His people. I hear about Jesus here on earth walking around laying hands on people.

In OT and NT God uses people of faith. People without faith are never used. I highly recommend you read Hebrews 11:1 - 12:2

Studies have shown that many people who claim to be healed later die of the very thing they supposedly were healed from?†Whose studies? I have friends who’ve seen the dead raised, go tell them that! The deaf boy who God healed can still hear, and as for myself, I can still walk upstairs.

It seems to me that you aren’t differentiating between miracles and gifts of the Spirit. I’ve acknowledged that God does miracles, I’ve seen them. However, what I’ve not seen is a person who can walk into a hospital and send everyone home healed. You said you’ve seen these miracles in your Christian circles. Why haven’t you seen them outside of your Christian circles? After all these signs were to confirm the word, they were evidence to an unbelieving world that the message of the apostles was true. They were signs to unbelievers yet today they only seem to be found “In†the church.

Jesus answered, "It says: '

Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Mat 16:4b (NIV) "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign."

This is the typical response I get when I present this information. It shows me several things. It suggests to me that you really aren’t seeking what the Scriptures say but rather are seeking to espouse a particular doctrine. The point here is that the objective gifts are never claimed, that speaks volumes.
It also shows me that you have no answer to this problem and as such are taking passages out of context in an attempt to deflect the argument.

I already quoted Titus 3:5 saying it’s not by works,

If you’d do a study on the works issue you’d find that Paul defines works of righteousness as works of the Mosaic Law. Thus God didn’t save them by their keeping the Law of Moses.

than your claiming that I’ve given some sort of check list? Clearly your mistaken,

That’s not what I said at all. What I said was no one in the New Testament gives a checklist for salvation. It is incumbent upon the Christian to find all of the passages on a subject in order to draw a conclusion.

and then said for yourself that we are to put all of them together for the checklist to make it to heaven.

Again, that not what I said. Nowhere did I say anything about heaven. I said we need to gather all of the passages on a subject, such as salvation in order to draw a conclusion. We cannot take a passage here and there and ignore other passages because they don’t agree with our doctrine.

It contradicts Titus 3:5

Not at all. As I above, Paul define works of righteousness as works of the Mosaic Law

How about my statement earlier? Baptize in the name of Jesus = Spirit Baptism because that would make a whole lot more sense! Considering if we do not have the Spirit we are hell bound, it is the very thing that seals us. Simple enough a child can understand this.

It seems you are confusing receiving the Holy Spirit with being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Being baptized in the Spirit is the receiving of power from the Spirit to do miraculous works such as those we see at Pentecost. Receiving the indwelling of the Spirit is different in that everyone receives the Spirit who believes and is baptized.

The Bible appears to be just a history book for you, but for me it’s alive!
So your saying God’s plan died when the 12 apostles died in the flesh?

Not at all, however, the God’s plan must be understood properly. The Law was a part of God’s plan too, however, He has brought that part to an end. Does that mean His plan died? Of course not. God had a purpose for the Law just as he had a purpose for the gifts. I am gathering that you didn’t reading the paper I presented to you, it explained from the Old Testament Scriptures what the purpose of the gifts was. When you understand the purpose of the gifts you can understand God’s plan for them. However, just ignore what God has stated regarding the gifts and make claims without support is not going to lead you to the truth.

The gifts are still here and just because you don’t notice them or don’t have the faith to receive it yourself, doesn’t mean God doesn’t want to us His people to reach out to this lost and dyeing world.

Here again we have an unsubstantiated claim.

That was the original plan for God to send Jesus so we could receive the Holy Spirit.

in the OT anyone who had the Holy Spirit inside them had “giftsâ€. It’s why I stated earlier do you believe the Holy Spirit lives inside us? As far as I can gather your against the move of the Spirit and grieving the Holy Spirit. Maybe it’s cause your taught wrong, or just believe the Bible is a history book?

Or maybe I correctly understand the Scriptures. Since you seem reluctant to read the paper I presented I’m thinking maybe you don’t want to see the evidence from the Scripture otherwise you might not be comfortable with your theology

Everything your doctrine means relies on this one verse, which is clearly misread because it contradicts the Word of God.

Do take the time to read Hebrews 11:1 – 12:2 again. It’s an encouraging to all believers!

☺

2Th 2:9 (NKJ) The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.

Again, I see you’ve not read my paper. My doctrine doesn’t rely on one verse. I’ve presented pages of Scripture in the paper relating to the gifts. I suspect that you’re only taking those few passages in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 into account. There is a lot more in Scripture about the gifts as can be seen in the paper.

 

[Free]

Hi Free,

I'd like to suggest something for consideration. Suppose when Paul said we know in part he was referring to the aposltes or those to whom he was writing and not all Christians.

I see no reason to believe that that was the case. If Paul was just writing to a certain group and not all Christians, then we must ask if whether or not other Christians at that time had part or even full knowledge.

Additionally, one then must consider that the "perfect" would had to have been something that happened while he was alive: "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." (ESV) Would this then apply to the group he was writing to or just Paul--"I shall know fully"?

If the "perfect" was the completion of Scripture, or some other thing that would occur after him writing that and prior to the end of all things, then one may raise all sorts of absurdities. For example, although Paul didn't exist when Scripture was completed (even what that means and when that happened can be up for debate), it must be said that at that point he then knew fully. But that is just absurd.

The best fit for this passage is that it was written to all believers and the "perfect" is referring to that period of time of the summation of all things; that distant point in the future when all will be fully revealed to believers.

 

[Free]

The Church is perfect, it is the Bride of Christ, but not everyone in the assembly is perfect that's why we need that which is perfect to teach us, the Bible:

Titus 1:16 (KJV)
16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Again, the Church is far from perfect. Again, I point to the numerous discussions on these forums, which in themselves are a small example of the divisions within the Church.

You keep claiming I use "exegetical fallacy", I am quoting scripture, If I am wrong I wish to be right so I would rather you show me with scripture rather than opinion.

Quoting Scripture does not mean one is showing anything at all. Anyone can quote Scripture. There are proper methods and rules for interpreting Scripture. It has been shown to you through example how taking a verse that uses a certain word does not mean that another verse's use of that word means they are talking of the same thing. It is an error in reasoning on your part.

 

[rrowell]

Your right, God is still pouring out His Spirit in the "last days". I experience it all the time. I guess it's something we'll have to agree to disagree. I just want to help you "experience" and "know" God in an intimiate way. Nobody can convince me that the miracles I've seen was not of the Holy Spirit. Just the opposite, I'm trying to help others see the "truth" or as you put it; my opinion.

I see you tell people all the time "read your Bible", might I suggest you take your own advice... Jesus warned us of the things that would come "in these last days":

Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The last thing I want to do rrowell is argue, because we'll never get anywhere. As far as the requirement to be baptized before your saved...well even in the verses you've given me, I still don't "see" or "believe" that.

I pray you open your eyes and ears to the truth, for one commandment if left undone is the same as not doing any of them:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

One thing to note concerning baptism; be "baptized in the name of Jesus" can very likely be referring to a Spiritual baptism. If your baptized in the name of John, it's only water. Also, the only thing Jews had to do to be forgiven of sins was to shed blood, not dunk themselves in water. I believe this is true for the NT and stand firm on that because I've seen people filled with the Holy Spirit before they were ever baptized in water.

When one does something "in the name of" that somebody they do so by that somebodies "authority", if one is baptized in the name of Christ, one is baptized in accordance with what he "authorized", in other words "the way he said do it", he said:

Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV)
4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

and like "water saved Noah" water baptism now saves us:

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So, if you believe as I do, there is no contradiction in the Bible, you must in this order "hear the Gospel, Believe the Gospel, Repent of your evil ways, Confess the Lord Jesus with the mouth, and be baptized by water", if you do ALL these things you have done it by the "authority" of Jesus as each and every one were commanded of Him. to leave any one of these commandments out is no longer "by His authority" so you have not done anything "in His Name"

All of these things I say out of experience and evidence with my natural eyes and my personal walk with Christ. Love ya brother, no hard feelings ;)

I do believe you have seen these things, I do not call you a liar... but I do believe much of what you have seen is not of Him:

Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[rrowell]

Again, the Church is far from perfect. Again, I point to the numerous discussions on these forums, which in themselves are a small example of the divisions within the Church.

Jesus will return for his Bride, his Bride will be the Perfect Body, but there will be many who think they are IN that body that call him Lord Lord... and he will say "I never knew you" (Those that he peaks to here are people that "call them selves Christians") it is not the Bible that causes the Division, it is the Doctrine of Men:

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Quoting Scripture does not mean one is showing anything at all. Anyone can quote Scripture. There are proper methods and rules for interpreting Scripture. It has been shown to you through example how taking a verse that uses a certain word does not mean that another verse's use of that word means they are talking of the same thing. It is an error in reasoning on your part.

I have been shown nothing except when someone is shown something in the Bible that does not support what they have been "told" by some man made doctrine that I am not using proper exegetical examination, however everyone that tells me this has not use any "exegetical examination" to prove me wrong, only opinions.

I did not use the English word "perfect" that is used 60 different times in the NKJ, I used the word that was translated to the word "perfect" in this particular verse "τελειον" that is used only 6 times in the TR, and in all 6 times the same word used is translated to the English "perfect", and I did NOT just use the word, but examining the context it is used, and every single context it is used lines up perfectly with this :

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Which happens to "perfectly" describe the Bible.

 

[Free]

I have been shown nothing except when someone is shown something in the Bible that does not support what they have been "told" by some man made doctrine that I am not using proper exegetical examination, however everyone that tells me this has not use any "exegetical examination" to prove me wrong, only opinions.

At this point showing the error in your reasoning is all that is required. There is simply no basis for taking the meaning of a word in one part of Scripture and equating it with it's use in another part.

I did not use the English word "perfect" that is used 60 different times in the NKJ, I used the word that was translated to the word "perfect" in this particular verse "τελειον" that is used only 6 times in the TR, and in all 6 times the same word used is translated to the English "perfect", and I did NOT just use the word, but examining the context it is used, and every single context it is used lines up perfectly with this :

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Which happens to "perfectly" describe the Bible.

It doesn't matter if it describes the Bible. It has no bearing on what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 13.

As for teleios (Strong's #5046) which is used 17 times in the NT, that is not what is used in Ps 19:7 in the LXX, one of the verses you have tried to use to support your position.

The context best fits something other than the Bible. See my post to Butch5 as to some of the difficulty with trying to make the Bible "that which is perfect." It simply does not fit the context nor what we experience within the Church and Christian walk.

 

[Butch5]

I see no reason to believe that that was the case. If Paul was just writing to a certain group and not all Christians, then we must ask if whether or not other Christians at that time had part or even full knowledge.

Additionally, one then must consider that the "perfect" would had to have been something that happened while he was alive: "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." (ESV) Would this then apply to the group he was writing to or just Paul--"I shall know fully"?

If the "perfect" was the completion of Scripture, or some other thing that would occur after him writing that and prior to the end of all things, then one may raise all sorts of absurdities. For example, although Paul didn't exist when Scripture was completed (even what that means and when that happened can be up for debate), it must be said that at that point he then knew fully. But that is just absurd.

The best fit for this passage is that it was written to all believers and the "perfect" is referring to that period of time of the summation of all things; that distant point in the future when all will be fully revealed to believers.

I don't think you have any absurdities. Paul didn't have full knowledge he tells us that in his own words. It's likely that he thought Christ's return would be in his lifetime. If look at his writings there is indication that he believed this. It is also possible that Paul did finally have the full revelation by the time of is death.

The perfect is simply completion or maturity it's not a thing as many Christians seem to think. His subject is Phophecy, tongues, and knowledge. What do these three things pertain to? I submit that they pertain to the revelation being given to the apostles by the Holy Spirit, in other words "The Faith." We know that at least by the time of Jude's writing the Faith had been completed or had reached maturity. Jude tells his readers to 'contend for the faith, once delivered to the saints'. These gifts were all prophesied in the OT and their purpose was given.