Does the Holy Spirit move after Acts?

[Butch5]

I was the one who took it out of context? Between the two of our posts which one actually investigated the text that was written in 1 Corinthians 13 and the surrounding chapters? Quoting a Psalm is not the context of 1 Corinthians 13! You have to look in Paul's own writings first, and particularly 1 Corinthians in this case, to understand what he is talking about. That is the correct way to read something in context.

The idea you are advancing in any case is bizzare, which I have never heard any Christian suggest: that the New Testament somehow "substitutes" or "replaces" the power and gifts of the Spirit working in the believer. What...? It's those very same Scriptures which tell us about those spiritual gifts!

You cannot prove the interpretaion that you have from the New Testament at all. I challenge you to show me where in the New Testament it says that the written Scripture somehow substitutes or replaces the spiritual gifts. And can you tell me at what exact date this replacement might have happened? As soon as the ink dried on the paper after it was penned by the apostles?

And once again, may I remind you, that that very ink tells us of the spiritual gifts and even says:

"Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy" (1 Corinthians 14:1). This is your highly regarded Scripture speaking here (and it is indeed to be highly regarded: as true and valid for today), and certainly you would not argue that "pursue love" is a command that has also "expired" would you?

My aim is not to start a quarrel, but Scripture says what it says, and you have yet to show me how your interpretation lines up with that Scripture.

God Bless,
~Josh

Hi Josh,

rrowell makes a valid point about the time issue. Many times Christians read the Scriptures and simply apply everything they see to today's believers and that is not necessarily the case. For instance Paul calls for the parchments, surely one wouldn't think Christians today are going to write on animal skins. That was the case in Paul's day, it's changed in ours.

 

[Mitspa]

There is no Biblical proof, whats more there is no physical proof that Miracles of men continue today, there are those that claim today to speak in tongues but they never can claim to say anything other than what the Bible already say's therefore it cannot be a claim of anything useful if it did exist.

Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:9-10 that the powers given the Apostles (and anyone else for that matter) these things will be done away when "that which is perfect is come", many try to say that is not the Bible...

1 Corinthians 13:9-10
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Even the Old testament referred to the Word of God as "Perfect" see Psa. 19:7 yet somehow deny the New Testament could claim such a thing.

Psalms 19:7
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Paul describes the Church from its infancy to maturity to the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 13:11

1 Corinthians 13:11
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

When the Church became a man, it put away childish things, this is to say it no longer needed the inspirational guidance of the Apostles to prove the Word of God once the Bible was written, as once written it is "perfect" Psalms 19:7.

Does God answer prayer? Absolutely, does he have men do miracles today? if he did we would not have Cancer.

Anyone that claims to do Miracles should stand in front of a hospital, put it out of business and watch the Church grow, you know why that does not happen? NO MAN CAN DO IT

The religious folks in the Lords Day on the earth, SEEN WITH THEIR OWN EYES, Him work great wonders and still did not believe? They said thats satan! They blasphemed the Holy Spirit! Now you who dont believe the bible and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, good! If you can live without ?it I can live with it!

But I do remind you all, a Day is coming when you will answer for your words against The Spirit of The Living God. So jump on in, the fire is nice and toasty:onfire "im sorry lord" !

 

[BornAgain]

That is a serious exegetical error to think that Paul is speaking of Psalms 19:7, that "the law of the Lord is perfect" is what Paul means by "that which is perfect". You simply cannot equate the two.

Psalm 19:7

It is God's system of instruction, by which men are taught the knowledge of God and themselves, directed how to walk so as to please GOD, redeemed from crooked paths, and guided in the way everlasting.


The law of the Lord—And here are two books of Revelation:


1. It is God's system of instruction, by which men are taught the knowledge of God and themselves, directed how to walk so as to please GOD, redeemed from crooked paths, and guided in the way everlasting. Some of the primitive fathers have mentioned three LAWS given by God to man:

Is perfect—is perfection, it is perfect in itself as a law, and requires perfection in the hearts and lives of men. This is ITS character.

Converting the soul—Turning it back to God. Restoring it to right reason, or to a sound mind; teaching it its own interest in reference to both worlds. This is ITS use.

The testimony of the Lord-The various types and appointments of the law, which refer to something beyond themselves, and point forward to the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Some understand, the doctrinal parts of the law.
Is sure, are faithful; they point out the things beyond them fairly, truly, and fully, and make no vain or false report. They all bear testimony to the great atonement. This is THEIR character.

Making wise the simple—The simple is he who has but one end in view: who is concerned about his soul, and earnestly inquires, "What shall I do to be saved?" These testimonies point to the atonement, and thus the simple-hearted is made wise unto salvation. This is THEIR use.

St. Paul applies this as a prophecy relative to the universal spread of the Gospel of Christ, Romans 10:18 for God designed that the light of the Gospel should be diffused wheresoever the light of the celestial luminaries shone; and be as useful and beneficent, in a moral point of view, as that is in a natural. All the inhabitants of the earth shall benefit by the Gospel of Christ, as they all benefit by the solar, lunar, and stellar light.

 

[ezra]

Hi Justin,

It's my understanding from the Scriptures that those miraculous Spiritual gifts are no longer given to believers today. That's not to say that God doesn't do miracles, He does. If you take notice in the next two verses in that passage it says,

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
​

(Mar 16:19-1 KJV)

Notice Mark records the words, "the Lord working with them." This is Mark's account of the Great Commission where Jesus sent out the aposltes. Mark says that Lord went with "them" the aposltes.

why do you want to discount what the LORD can do? does he do it exactly like he did years ago maybe yes maybe no. one thing for sure if your closed minded . nothing will take place :yes

 

[Free]

Psalm 19:7

It is God's system of instruction, by which men are taught the knowledge of God and themselves, directed how to walk so as to please GOD, redeemed from crooked paths, and guided in the way everlasting.


The law of the Lord—And here are two books of Revelation:


1. It is God's system of instruction, by which men are taught the knowledge of God and themselves, directed how to walk so as to please GOD, redeemed from crooked paths, and guided in the way everlasting. Some of the primitive fathers have mentioned three LAWS given by God to man:

Is perfect—is perfection, it is perfect in itself as a law, and requires perfection in the hearts and lives of men. This is ITS character.

Converting the soul—Turning it back to God. Restoring it to right reason, or to a sound mind; teaching it its own interest in reference to both worlds. This is ITS use.

The testimony of the Lord-The various types and appointments of the law, which refer to something beyond themselves, and point forward to the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Some understand, the doctrinal parts of the law.
Is sure, are faithful; they point out the things beyond them fairly, truly, and fully, and make no vain or false report. They all bear testimony to the great atonement. This is THEIR character.

Making wise the simple—The simple is he who has but one end in view: who is concerned about his soul, and earnestly inquires, "What shall I do to be saved?" These testimonies point to the atonement, and thus the simple-hearted is made wise unto salvation. This is THEIR use.

St. Paul applies this as a prophecy relative to the universal spread of the Gospel of Christ, Romans 10:18 for God designed that the light of the Gospel should be diffused wheresoever the light of the celestial luminaries shone; and be as useful and beneficent, in a moral point of view, as that is in a natural. All the inhabitants of the earth shall benefit by the Gospel of Christ, as they all benefit by the solar, lunar, and stellar light.

Sorry but I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

 

[BornAgain]

That is a serious exegetical error to think that Paul is speaking of Psalms 19:7, that "the law of the Lord is perfect" is what Paul means by "that which is perfect". You simply cannot equate the two.

My response was your question to Psalms 19:7 and that the law of the Lord is Perfect....

 

[Free]

My response was your question to Psalms 19:7 and that the law of the Lord is Perfect....

But I don't understand your response. My point was that it is error to equate what Psalms 19:7 is saying with what Paul is saying. There simply is no basis for equating what is said between two or more verses just because a similar or same word is used.

 

[Butch5]

why do you want to discount what the LORD can do? does he do it exactly like he did years ago maybe yes maybe no. one thing for sure if your closed minded . nothing will take place :yes

Hi ezra,

I've studied this issue in the Scriptures at length and have come to the understanding that God no longer gives those gifts. As I said, He does do miracles and He does use people, however, It seems clear from Scripture that those gifts in the early church were for a specific purpose, a purpose that has been fulfilled.

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

When used properly the Old Testament is a "school master", we can see from the Psalmist what "perfect" is... it is used by Paul meaning "the word of God"

What you also miss interpenetrate is the time of events, what was "future" then is now "past".

Paul said "when that which is perfect is come" meaning it had "not yet come" (so it isn't Jesus were talking about, he already came and will come again), since at that time the New Testament had not been fully revealed, but at a "future time" when the "perfect law of Christ" (full revelation, it took all of the Apostles to do it because they all "new in part") and when the New Testament Bible was written (which is now in the past) then everything (with the exception of love) that the Apostles did, would vanish away:

1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV)
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


What is bizarre, is that you came up with me saying any such a thing...

Ill put it this way and with emphasis "the New Testament Bible replaced the Apostles, the ones baptized with the Holy Spirit, and their power died with them" maybe that is more clear.

I just did, and I don't know the exact date, but it was right after the Apostle John died.

The only (Holy Spirit) spiritual gift we receive today is here:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Again you have the "time" issue... If Paul was speaking, then these "spiritual gifts" were alive and well (until that which is perfect is come). "love (Charity)" would never pass see again 1 Cor. 13:8 :

1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV)
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.


Debate is not quarrel, your correct, Scripture says what it says, but we MUST put "time" and "place" in perspective otherwise it becomes miss interpenetration.

You have 1 verse which your clearly firm on that perfect means the word of God. Sad how take one verse and make a doctrine out of it. You need to look at the rest of the Bible too, because your belief contradicts it.

John the baptists may have sad that a greater one comes, but Jesus said we'll do greater things! "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." John 14:12

You obviously have no faith in Him to see these greater works. Fine, you never will. I will see many more to come before I pass from this earth. Others around me will see the same. Those who believe like Jesus put it, will see His greater works. You got any other verses or just the one?

Hi ezra,

I've studied this issue in the Scriptures at length and have come to the understanding that God no longer gives those gifts. As I said, He does do miracles and He does use people, however, It seems clear from Scripture that those gifts in the early church were for a specific purpose, a purpose that has been fulfilled.

Again, another non believer. Read the above reply as it is for all those who don't believe in what Jesus said.

I will not grieve the Holy Spirit, I will not take the glory from God. I've seen His works and it's all Him! You who don't believe speak as if I'm a curse upon this world. A lier! An angel of light! But I give all the glory to God! Is the kingdom divided against itself? Do these miracles really honor God? Do they draw others closer to Him?

It's funny how all of my questions never get answered. Each time we go back to that one verse about what is perfect, while the rest of the Bible says if you believe, if you have faith then ask!

 

[Butch5]

Again, another non believer. Read the above reply as it is for all those who don't believe in what Jesus said.

I will not grieve the Holy Spirit, I will not take the glory from God. I've seen His works and it's all Him! You who don't believe speak as if I'm a curse upon this world. A lier! An angel of light! But I give all the glory to God! Is the kingdom divided against itself? Do these miracles really honor God? Do they draw others closer to Him?

It's funny how all of my questions never get answered. Each time we go back to that one verse about what is perfect, while the rest of the Bible says if you believe, if you have faith then ask!

Dude, you asked a question, I answered it and you're all bent out of shape. I believe every word God said. However, I also believe that the Scriptures need to be understood in context the way the original audience would understand them. If we are to come to a proper understanding of the book of 1 Corinthians we nned to understand it the way the Corinthians would have understood, not the way 21st century Christians would understand it.

I'd be happy to address your questions. Can you please present them in an orderly manner so that we can look at them? Also, there is more than a single passage of Scripture that we need to deal with. My question is are you willing to look at the issue and come to a conclusion or are you simply arguing for your position?

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

Dude, you asked a question, I answered it and you're all bent out of shape. I believe every word God said. However, I also believe that the Scriptures need to be understood in context the way the original audience would understand them. If we are to come to a proper understanding of the book of 1 Corinthians we nned to understand it the way the Corinthians would have understood, not the way 21st century Christians would understand it.

I'd be happy to address your questions. Can you please present them in an orderly manner so that we can look at them? Also, there is more than a single passage of Scripture that we need to deal with. My question is are you willing to look at the issue and come to a conclusion or are you simply arguing for your position?

My apologies, I am worked up because there is so little faith here in these forums. My hands are tied because I can't force anybody to believe. But us being Christians, really grieves my heart. All work that is done without the foundation of Christ will be burned up at judgement day. If your not led by the Spirit, then what will make it through the fire?

Just one question, do you believe what Jesus said about us doing greater works?

 

[rrowell]

That is a serious exegetical error to think that Paul is speaking of Psalms 19:7, that "the law of the Lord is perfect" is what Paul means by "that which is perfect". You simply cannot equate the two.

Where is your scripture to back that up?

I gave you scripture that shows "the law of the Lord is perfect", are you saying the "law of Christ" is not perfect?

Prove to me Paul is not talking about the "law of Christ" when he used the same word in the New Testament that was used in the Old.

Whats more serious exegetical error, saying its not? or showing its not?

I used scripture, all anyone has given me is opinion.

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

Where is your scripture to back that up?

I gave you scripture that shows "the law of the Lord is perfect", are you saying the "law of Christ" is not perfect?

Prove to me Paul is not talking about the "law of Christ" when he used the same word in the New Testament that was used in the Old.

Whats more serious exegetical error, saying its not? or showing its not?

I used scripture, all anyone has given me is opinion.

Read the entire thread as there is way more than one verse. We're just tried of repeating it haha. The Bible does not contradict itself.

 

[Butch5]

My apologies, I am worked up because there is so little faith here in these forums. My hands are tied because I can't force anybody to believe. But us being Christians, really grieves my heart. All work that is done without the foundation of Christ will be burned up at judgement day. If your not led by the Spirit, then what will make it through the fire?

Just one question, do you believe what Jesus said about us doing greater works?

I do, however, consider that that statement can be understood in more than one way. Jesus said,

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (Joh 14:12 KJV)

The context here is that Jesus is going to be leaving, He says that the one who believes will do greater works than He did, because He's going to the Father.
So, the reason the believer will do greater works is because Jesus was leaving. I submit to you that Jesus was referring to numbers not more amazing miracles. What more amazing miracles could a person do than Jesus had already done? He had raised the dead, what greater miracle could a believer do than that? Jesus' time on earth as limited, His ministry was only about 3 1/2 years. Many believer have years sometimes decades to do works for God. The apostles had 30 years or more so they could do many more miraculous works in that time than Jesus did in 3 and 1/2 years. Here is the same word used by James.

YLT James 4:6 and greater grace he doth give, wherefore he saith, 'God against proud ones doth set Himself up, and to lowly ones He doth give grace?' (Jam 4:6 YLT)

It can be seen from this passage that the Greek word translated greater can mean greater in amount also.

 

[rrowell]

Originally Posted by BornAgain
My response was your question to Psalms 19:7 and that the law of the Lord is Perfect....

But I don't understand your response. My point was that it is error to equate what Psalms 19:7 is saying with what Paul is saying. There simply is no basis for equating what is said between two or more verses just because a similar or same word is used.

No, it was not using two scriptures that use the same word, it was using to scriptures that say "perfect Law" of God, you cannot prove with scripture that in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is not in reference to the "perfect Law" of Christ. (the context correlates unless you can prove otherwise, I am open for truth)

When the full revelation of God "New Testament" is completed, there was no need for the Apostles powers to witness Christ by miraculous power which is what Paul is talking about when he said those powers vanish away in 1 Corinthians 13:8

It lines up perfectly with the fact that each Apostle "know in part" but once they write "their part" we now have the full revelation... It lines up with the physical fact that people are not truly walking around healing people... The only thing it does not line up with is all the man made doctrine out there...

I hear a lot of people saying NO, but I don't see anyone showing "NO"

 

[rrowell]

Read the entire thread as there is way more than one verse. We're just tried of repeating it haha. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Ill say it again, show me scripture, not just opinion, that "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is not the "Law of Christ"?

You cannot, just like you cannot heal anyone (Just like Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:8).

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

flesh reply..... there has been testimonies given to seeing the Holy Spirit work. he gave us power

John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Acts 1:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts 6:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.



1 Corinthians 2:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Mar 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Joh 14:10

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If He said it, then its true!

"Saved" in the Greek is "Sozo". That is the word used in all these verses.


Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said ‘Daughter take courage your faith has made you well and at once the woman was made well.


Luke 8:36And those who had seen it reported to them how the man who was demon-possessed had been made well

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved


If the Holy Spirit does not move anymore a person can't even be saved nor can a person be convicted of sin.

What you mentioned just reminded me of this passage and what the Pharisee thought about this.

Matthew 12: 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man drives out demons only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.â€
25He knew what they were thinking and told them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
26So if Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How, then, can his kingdom stand?
27If I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own followersv drive them out? That is why they will be your judges!
28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
29How can someone go into a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions without first tying up the strong man? Then he can ransack his house.
30The person who isn’t with me is against me, and the person who isn’t gathering with me is scattering.
31So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven,w but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.â€

Hello BornAgain. I wanted to respond to you here in order to respectfully correct something that I think you are misunderstanding, while yet "speaking the truth in love" (Ephesians 4:15). We all want to know the truth of Scripture, so please hear me out because I may be able to clarify a few things for you by letting the Scripture speak for itself. I know this is somewhat long but please read all of it, as I think it can be rewarding to look into these Scriptures!

First of all I highly recommend reading the Scriptures that Mitspa has already posted that show Jesus said we will do things greater than he did in the earth, and gave us power and authority to do it: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45450&p=694816&viewfull=1#post694816.

Also read this account of Paul commanding an unclean spirit to come out of a slave girl that was negatively impacting his proclamation of the Gospel (which he did with the same authority that Christ used to command the 'legion' of spirits to come out of the man who lived in the tombs and cast them into the pigs nearby in Matthew 8:31-32):

"As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." 18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And it came out that very hour." (Acts 16:16-18)

This was after Jesus' ascension and shows that this power to cast out evil spirits was still very much active.

Also Jesus said that in the future (at his second coming) many would come to him saying that they had cast out demons and performed miracles:

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" (Matthew 7:22)

Jesus does nothing to indicate that these are phony claims, but exercising such power does not necessarily assume that you will remain faithful to God. Although to be fair Jesus does give a warning of "false prophets" in verse 15, but the jist of the rhetorical question is "Yes, we did prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles in your name", but that will not save them if they "practice lawlessness" (verse 23).

Also as pertains to healing, which does not always mean casting out demons but certainly means performing miracles, this is addressed in James 5:14-18:

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit."

Healing through faith and prayer is a power very much made available to us today which is James' whole point, especially why he mentions the miracle that occured as a result of Elijah's prayer which he says we can do also because he was a "man with a nature like ours" yet accomplished that through prayer and faith. This is available today through any "effective prayer of a righteous man".

Lastly, I would like to address another thing that you said which is very important to clarify:




You really must pay attention to the context of 1 Corinthians 13 to understand what he is saying, because you misunderstand Paul's point. Let's look at the context for the verse you quoted:

"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."
(1 Corinthians 13:8-13)

Immediately you should see, especially where I have hilighted the parallel thoughts that Paul is using in red & blue, that Paul is saying now (in the present day) we know in part, but then (in the future - also looking forward to "when [it] has come"). Paul's reference isn't to Jesus per se but when all things are made perfect (including us), which will include the yet future redemption of our bodies and of the earth itself which Paul speaks of just two chapters later in 1 Corinthians 15. Please reread this to understand what Paul is saying.

Also notice all the "will be" (yet future) references that Paul makes of when those gifts will one day be done away, and they clearly had not been done away in Paul's day, such as with tongues, because he even said "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all" (1 Corinthians 14:18) in the very next chapter! Notice that at the beginning of the next chapter that he also says, "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy" (1 Corinthians 14:1). How can you desire something that is no longer available?

When Paul was talking about perfection, he was talking about perfection yet to come and to look forward to: "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face" (1 Corinthians 13:12).

I think that if you sit down and read 1 Corinthians 12-15 all in one sitting together that this will all become clear to you.

Please let me know if you have any questions because there is some rich spiritual truth and power here, and I don't want you to miss it! And remember, I am doing this in love because as you said we are here to discuss what the Scripture actually says.

God Bless,
~Josh

Here is your quick reference of verses that support that the Holy Spirit is alive in us. The Holy Spirit does the same works He's always done.

 

[ezra]

Hi ezra,

I've studied this issue in the Scriptures at length and have come to the understanding that God no longer gives those gifts. As I said, He does do miracles and He does use people, however, It seems clear from Scripture that those gifts in the early church were for a specific purpose, a purpose that has been fulfilled.

show scripture he no longer gives gifts....1st corithians 12
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


Ephesians 4


11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;


preaching is a gift teaching is a gift * discernment is a gift . you show me scripture saying the gifts of the spirit is not for today. i will retract my post..if you can not show scripture that says that you can retract yours. it has to say gifts of the spirit are no longer used. i posted scriptures showing gift are for us even in this present age. (edifying of the body of Christ doe the body of Christ need edified the gifts and calling of Go are w/o repentance :yes:yes

 

[Justin_Gilpin]

No, it was not using to scriptures that use the same word, it was using to scriptures that say "perfect Law" of God, you cannot prove with scripture that in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is not in reference to the "perfect Law" of Christ. (the context correlates unless you can prove otherwise, I am open for truth)

When the full revelation of God "New Testament" is completed, there was no need for the Apostles powers to witness Christ by miraculous power which is what Paul is talking about when he said those powers vanish away in 1 Corinthians 13:8

It lines up perfectly with the fact that each Apostle "know in part" but once they write "their part" we now have the full revelation... It lines up with the physical fact that people are not truly walking around healing people... The only thing it does not line up with is all the man made doctrine out there...

I hear a lot of people saying NO, but I don't see anyone showing "NO"

15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. Matt 7:15-20

I can show you my fruit. You can ask the 100+ people who've been healed. Ask them if God still does miracles and they'll tell you.

If I give you a link to a video, will you say its phony? Probably. Why? Because your close minded and don't want to see the Truth. Let me tell you though, that the Truth will set you free! Stop listening to the lies of satan, Jesus died to give us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does these miracles not man. The Holy Spirit is the same that the apostles had, so whats makes them so special? When you die and ask those apostles about these things, they will be upset that you looked so hard to man and not to God. This is the reason I'm grieved too, as His wonders are all around you.

http://justingilpin.com/prayer-for-healing

 

[ezra]

Ill say it again, show me scripture, not just opinion, that "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is not the "Law of Christ"?

You cannot, just like you cannot heal anyone (Just like Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:8).

hold it be fair. it has been stated no man can heal. but the Bible says we can lay hands on we can anoint with oil and healing can take place. i have seen it does laying on of hands and anointing of oil. have to be for healing? NO i have known of just praying and healing takes place.


ok paul wrote this 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away that which was perfect had came. question why would he post the Gifts of the spirit. knowing this?