Ephesians 2:10

[Webb]

Hi Butch5

True, both man and God have a part in baptism, but the question is, is man's part a work of human merit?

 

[farouk]

The question is not to believe but to saved. I agree that no one needs to be baptized to believe. The Philippian Jailor and his house weren't baptized to believe, they were baptized to be saved.

Nope. Baptism is a symbol for those who are saved. It's not in order to become saved. One is not born again (John 3) by being baptised.

 

[Butch5]

Nope. Baptism is a symbol for those who are saved. It's not in order to become saved. One is not born again (John 3) by being baptised.

Actually, that's just what John 3 is saying, born of water and the Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5

True, both man and God have a part in baptism, but the question is, is man's part a work of human merit?

I don't think merit comes into play, It's obedience. Can you define what you mean by merit, in what sense you're using it?

 

[farouk]

Actually, that's just what John 3 is saying, born of water and the Spirit.

...and Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'.

Replace spiritual cleansing by ritualism and it becomes a religion of human works, not faith alone.

 

[Butch5]

...and Ephesians speaks of 'the washing of water by the word'.

Replace spiritual cleansing by ritualism and it becomes a religion of human works, not faith alone.

That passage in Ephesians is speaking of water baptism. Faith alone is not Scripture it's Martin Luther's doctrine..

 

[farouk]

That passage in Ephesians is speaking of water baptism. Faith alone is not Scripture it's Martin Luther's doctrine..

If it really means water baptism, why does the Ephesians passage actually say 'by the Word', then?

Faith alone is a summary of what Ephesians 2, 8 - 9 says. (I appreciate Luther but for the sake of argument, never mind Luther.)

 

[n2thelight]

Would you agree with me then that one is not a Christian if he does NOT do those preordained good works of Eph 2:10? That being the case then one must do those works to be a Christian which means works are necessary to salvation?

Nope,can't agree,I think there is such thing as a lazy christian.....

 

[Webb]

Hi Butch5

By "merit" I mean what some teach that baptism is a work of human righteousness and therefore has nothing to do with our being saved. I believe you and I are on the same page. I understand the scripture to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary to being saved, Mk.15:15,16.

 

[Butch5]

If it really means water baptism, why does the Ephesians passage actually say 'by the Word', then?

The Greek word translated word in that passage is "Rhema" not "Logos". Rhema means the spoken word or command. The only command in the Christian faith is water baptism. The apostles were told to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Faith alone is a summary of what Ephesians 2, 8 - 9 says. (I appreciate Luther but for the sake of argument, never mind Luther.)

Actually, in context Paul is contrasting faith which saves to the works of the Mosaic Law which cannot save. He explains what he means as he proceeds in the chapter. He goes on to compare the Gentiles with the Jews and how the Gentiles were outside of the covenant promises but have be brought near by Christ abolishing the Mosaic Law.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared} 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {thereby: or, in himself} 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: (Eph 2:1 KJV)

Christ, having broken down the middle wall of partion and abolishing the Law has done away with the requirements to be in the old covenant with God and has taken away the Jews source of boasting which was the Law. He has established a new covenant.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5

By "merit" I mean what some teach that baptism is a work of human righteousness and therefore has nothing to do with our being saved. I believe you and I are on the same page. I understand the scripture to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary to being saved, Mk.15:15,16.

Hi Webb,

Yes, it appears we are on the same page. I thought that is what you probably meant but I didn't want to assume.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ernest

So one cannot be a Christian without doing those good works

Lets try no one can do the good works without being first a New Creation !

 

[farouk]

The Greek word translated word in that passage is "Rhema" not "Logos". Rhema means the spoken word or command. The only command in the Christian faith is water baptism. The apostles were told to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.





Actually, in context Paul is contrasting faith which saves to the works of the Mosaic Law which cannot save. He explains what he means as he proceeds in the chapter. He goes on to compare the Gentiles with the Jews and how the Gentiles were outside of the covenant promises but have be brought near by Christ abolishing the Mosaic Law.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. {ordained: or, prepared} 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {thereby: or, in himself} 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:(Eph 2:1 KJV)

Christ, having broken down the middle wall of partion and abolishing the Law has done away with the requirements to be in the old covenant with God and has taken away the Jews source of boasting which was the Law. He has established a new covenant.

B5:

Well, it's a great passage in Ephesians 2.

But it's stretching it by far to make the idea of cleansing in the context of Ephesians 5 unique to a supposed operation of water baptism, if this is what you are really suggesting.

 

[felix]

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


Can one be a Christian yet not walk in those good works which God before ordained Christians to walk in?

Can one go through their whole life with faith only and not ever do any works, yet still be saved?





(See also Mat 25:32-46)

(Matt 7:16-27) "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor [can] a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."


Ephesians 2:10 is about the below people:
(Eph 2:1-3) And you [He made alive,] who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, one's ultimate salvation at the end. Initially, coming to Christ does not require works.

How does coming to Christ not involve a work, doing something?

Jesus said, 'why call ye Me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?'

This tells me one has to first do works, do the things Christ said BEFORE one can even call Jesus their Lord.

You say one does works AFTER they are initially saved. Can one NOT ever do those works after they are intially saved yet remain saved?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't agree that works earn favor with God to stay saved.

But evidence of the person being saved through faith in Christ must be seen. As James says, faith without works is dead.

The good works of Eph 2:10 are not to earn salvation for one is already a Christian when thy do those good works. But you say works are evidence a person is saved, meaning a person with no works is not saved, meaning salvation is conditional upon works. One cannot become a Christian and remain a Christian without ever doing the before ordained good works of Eph 2:10.

Before the world began, God foreknew a group that would be called "Christians". From Eph 1:4,5 God foreknew that this group would have certain ear marks, certain traits/characteristics, those being "in Christ", being "holy and without blame" and being children or called "sons" of God. From Eph 2:10 God also foreknew the works this group would participate in.

If one argued one could be a Christian yet not do those foreknown good works, not have that particular trait/characteristic, I would then argue one could be a Christan and not have the other traits either, not be in Christ, not be Holy and without blame, not be a son. Of course this is not possible, because for one to be a Christian he must have all those triats/characteristics, not just some.


So whether or not one believes works come before or after salvation, the bottom line is that one cannot be saved without doing works making salvation conditional upon works and faith only false.

One who believes in faith only says one does not have to do works BEFORE salvation but does works AFTER salvation. I will say those AFTER salvation works are necessary for one to maintain his salvation. If the faith only person says 'no' to this, then they are then argiung works are not needed before or after salvation, that one can go through life without doing any works yet still be saved, which as we have seen is not possible.

In another forum, some of the faith only believers argued the Christian has "eternal security" therefore cannot be lost if they did not do any AFTER salvation works. Yet they have "eternal security" trying to undo, change, stop those preordained works of Eph 2:10, that the Christian can be unfruitful yet not but cut from the vine and cast into the fire, not do good works per Matt 25 yet still be saved with the righteous. They have created many contradictions. Rom 2:6-11 God renders to every man according to his deeds. So those that do no works are obviously not doing obedient works therefore are in disobedience and verses 8,9 says God will have wrath and indignation upon those who "obey not" and God is not a respecter of persons in this matter. So eternal security cannot trump how God renders judgment else God has lied as to how He will render unto men.

 

[WIP]

A more simple approach maybe this; can one be a Christian yet not do those good works that God "before ordained" the Christian should walk in?

Simple answer...no. Not because doing good works is a requirement but because doing good works becomes a part of who we are. Can God not do good works? Once we surrender to the Holy Spirit, I don't see how it is possible for us to not do good works.

It seems you are making the "works" into a task, chore, test, or something we must accomplish and I don't see it that way. I believe we do the works out of desire and not out of duty or obligation. For when we do good works we have nothing to boast about ergo, it does not make us extra special. There's nothing to gain for us by doing the work. Jesus doesn't serve for gain but he serves because that is what he does and who he is.

Lu:17:5: And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
Lu:17:6: And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
Lu:17:7: But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Lu:17:8: And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Lu:17:9: Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Lu:17:10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nope,can't agree,I think there is such thing as a lazy christian.....

So one can be a Christian and NOT do those "before ordained" works of Eph 2:10??

How can one undo, change or stop what God has before ordained the Christian should do?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

ernest



Lets try no one can do the good works without being first a New Creation !

Fine, so can one be a "New Creation" yet not do those good works of Eph 2:10?

 

[WIP]

Something that I am now struggling with as I read my own posts here is that I am saying things that seem to counter what I have previously thought and now I question my own understanding. I have previously concluded that it is possible for one who is saved to turn and reject God. But then I read what I just wrote in this thread that I don't think it is possible to not do the works after being saved. So which is it? If I can turn and reject God was I really saved to begin with?

Things to ponder.