ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?

[Hitch]

Yup. One day Jesus is gonna come and pick us up to be with Him, and until that day I will keep on wondering what the heck the differences between a pre- and a post- tribber is, and also wondering why it even matters. 'cause even if you are wrong you still win!!!

Realisticly Pard ; When I was a boy we went to church and almost every service began with some one up front saying 'The Lord might come back before the service is out tonight.'

And almost every adult finished every sentence with 'Should the Lord tarry' .

This was not presented as a possibilty but as realistic an expectation as the morning paper. There wasnt a story or current event that didnt prove our great expectation .

When you're 8 years old you're not supposed to question adults, especially at church. No one ever set a date but no one expected it could possibly be more that a year away, just maybe two.

Its been 50,(years) and Im fortunate, Im afraid many lost or at least have damaged faith, because evey one they looked up to failed them over and over .

Thats why it matters

H

 

[Alabaster]

I am grateful for godly parents that made sure I was in the house of God every Sunday to hear the word preached. that is a Christian parent's duty according to this wise word:

Proverbs 22:6 NLT
Direct your children onto the right path,
and when they are older, they will not leave it.

 

[jasoncran]

you all complain about the idea of the rapture is destructive. its funny as i was a jw for yrs and thought that 2000 woul be it as that is what they said.

pre-trib churches i have attended dont give out dates.

i wonder if a thousand yrs isnt literal to you all then why are you reformed guys and gals old earth creationists?

if a day isnt a day but a 1000 or some long unkwown period, reconcile?

after all didnt the lord say for in six days the heavens and the earth was made to moses.

think about it.

 

[D4Christ]

Dear Friends, How did God save you from the heresy which is the pre-tribulation rapture teaching? How did you learn there is only one second coming of Christ, and not 2 future comings of Christ, as pre-tribulationism teaches? Which verses OF THE BIBLE showed you the pre-tribulation teaching is WRONG (HERETICAL)? I believe that John Hagee is one of the more vocal preachers of this heresy, don't you?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

I was saved from this teaching when my friend got saved 7 years ago. As a new believer (and being a little anal like me) she looked up everything she heard in church. Upon checking the scriptures she immediately saw the discrepancy and asked for my help in trying to figure it out. As a pre-tribber by default (I had never heard of anything different) I saw the inconsistencies my friend brought to my attention but I was sure we would fgure it out in light of what I was taught. BIG MISTAKE! Our searches brought us to a belief, which we later found out fell under "prewrath." We had no preconceived notions nor did we know what prewrath, mid trib, etc was. Our findings were based purely on scriptures. Only when we discovered the truth did God lead us to the name prewrath.

As far as scriptures were concerned Matt 24, 1 and 2 Thess, Daniel, Joel, Zech and Zep and Isaiah are the books that gave us clarity on rapture timing. Ironically, this study led to an unexpected paradigm shift in our understanding of the Trinity. But that's a whole other issue......

As far as preachers are concerned Hagee certainly does not hold the market on this false teaching....he is in good company as many preachers (even those whom I spoke to who acknowledge many people's feelings on prewrath) refuse to touch the verses that make a 7 year tribulation nonsense. It is so frustrating to see a preacher quote all over the bible about the rapture but when it comes to the one verse that will put the 7 year theory to rest, they will quote every verse up to that one, then conveniently skip the verse and quote beyond it. This lets me know they know exactly what they are doing and therefore imho partakers of this great deception.

2cents,
Deirdre

 

[Alabaster]

Deirdre, what is 'that one verse'?

The truth always offends those who choose a falsehood, so when one goes around calling the pre-tribulation rapture interpretation a 'great deception', I am once again assured that pre-trib belief is the truth.

Of course there is no interpretation that is a sure one, as God has left out details for us, which to me should cause us to not be so combative regarding these matters.

 

[Hitch]

you all complain about the idea of the rapture is destructive. its funny as i was a jw for yrs and thought that 2000 woul be it as that is what they said.

pre-trib churches i have attended dont give out dates.

Of course they dont give dates. They just say SOON and never ever quatifiably define the term .

i wonder if a thousand yrs isnt literal to you all then why are you reformed guys and gals old earth creationists?

Most I know, by that I mean Refomed authors 'Ive read are six day crationists.

if a day isnt a day but a 1000 or some long unkwown period, reconcile?

after all didnt the lord say for in six days the heavens and the earth was made to moses.

think about it.

Ok Jason I'll give you a quote;

The first creative act refers to the dateless past and gives scope for all the geologic ages.

Scofield Reference Bible p3.

 

[D4Christ]

Deirdre, what is 'that one verse'?

The truth always offends those who choose a falsehood, so when one goes around calling the pre-tribulation rapture interpretation a 'great deception', I am once again assured that pre-trib belief is the truth.

To each his own. But trust me...I am not offended by those who believe or try to support a pretrib rapture theory. Freed is more like it. For me the verses are found in many passages.

Matt 24: (NLT)

21 For there will be greater anguish than at any time since the world began. And it will never be so great again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

2 Thess 2:

1 Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun.(?) Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.

There are others...but I find it strange that whenever I listen to a pretrib teacher who quotes Thess or Matt they inadvertantly (?) stop quoting Thess at verse 3, and Matt at verse 22...two verses that explictly state (1) the great tribulation will be shortened and (2) "that day" in reference to the Day of the Lord, which according to the above passage also refers to "...how we will be gathered to meet him..." won't happen until the "man of lawlessness is revealed."

How is it that the time of our gathering can happen "at any moment" but scriptures states it can't happen until the AC is revealed....and the time of tribulation is for 7 years when scriptures clearly indicate that the tribulation begins when the AC reigns, yet his reign is only for 3.5 yrs (=42 months, 1260 days)? [Rev 13:5]

Of course there is no interpretation that is a sure one, as God has left out details for us, which to me should cause us to not be so combative regarding these matters.

For me at least, there is no combat involved. The scriptures say what they say. The above imho repeats what the scriptures actually say. Of course for those who disagree its their perrogative. I'm not trying to change minds, but I enjoy the discussions for we all have put a lot of thought into this and I have learned a lot over the years through the exchanging of ideas.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[jasoncran]

Of course they dont give dates. They just say SOON and never ever quatifiably define the term . Most I know, by that I mean Refomed authors 'Ive read are six day crationists. Ok Jason I'll give you a quote;

The first creative act refers to the dateless past and gives scope for all the geologic ages.

Scofield Reference Bible p3.

young earthers are lot older the calvinism buddy. if you look at the word for day in exodus in hebrew what is it?

but that is for another topic as oddly the defender of creationism in the monkey trial was a reformed theologian who held the earth to be old and so did the ,man rc. sproul of that icr points to.

spurgeon was the man that was at the monkey trial.

keep in mind why i asked that, as its convient when its come to what 1k years means.

interesting isnt it.

i lean more toward old earth as the means of the 6,000 yrs comes from geneology.

 

[Scotth1960]

Deirdre, what is 'that one verse'?

The truth always offends those who choose a falsehood, so when one goes around calling the pre-tribulation rapture interpretation a 'great deception', I am once again assured that pre-trib belief is the truth.

Of course there is no interpretation that is a sure one, as God has left out details for us, which to me should cause us to not be so combative regarding these matters.

Alabaster, To cut through the disinformation about this topic, what does Matthew 24 say, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other". Matthew 24:29-31 ESV

The elect are gathered into the air after the tribulation of those days. ESV
The Church is resurrected in the first resurrection, and meets Christ the Lord in the air, in the four winds of heaven.
:nod

 

[Hitch]

young earthers are lot older the calvinism buddy. if you look at the word for day in exodus in hebrew what is it?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

but that is for another topic as oddly the defender of creationism in the monkey trial was a reformed theologian who held the earth to be old and so did the ,man rc. sproul of that icr points to.

spurgeon was the man that was at the monkey trial.

keep in mind why i asked that, as its convient when its come to what 1k years means.

interesting isnt it.

i lean more toward old earth as the means of the 6,000 yrs comes from geneology.

huh?

 

[jasoncran]

you claim that much of the book revalation is fullfilled and have stated that theres no millenial reign of the lord, thus thou art amillenist

when you reformists then state that the earth is six thousand years old based on the verse in peter that says one day to the lord is a thousand yrs to men.

so that verse there means a thousand yrs is literal?

and when did you all get the idea in revalation that same period isnt literal.

 

[Hitch]

In case you're addressing me;

you claim that much of the book revalation is fullfilled and have stated that theres no millenial reign of the lord, thus thou art amillenist

I have stated that the kingdom prophecied in ancient times and that which our Lord announced when opeing his public ministry are the same, and that JESUS CHRIST currently wields all the power in heaven and earth. Make of tht what you will.

when you reformists then state that the earth is six thousand years old based on the verse in peter that says one day to the lord is a thousand yrs to men.

Quote me jr.

so that verse there means a thousand yrs is literal?

see above

and when did you all get the idea in revalation that same period isnt literal.

Lost me again but you said something about Revelation being literal , I agree;

Revelation 1

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Now tell me why shortly come to pass means thousands of years.

Dont bother I wouldnt believe you over John anyway.

 

[jasoncran]

so when was the thousand yrs ended in if it started there should be a timeline?

if it was a day or some that that john started

and if you take the behold i cometh quickly as shortly what then?

he doesnt work like we do. he will come but not when we says he does.

again when did that literal or figurative time happen.

dates? and when did it end and if that 1000 k isnt literal then justify why you are a literal young earth creationist as that is inconsistent.

are you not a reformist? and do you accept old earth or young earth?

i did ask you that, and you didnt answer so i assumed afirmative. if old then should me why

the earth could have been before the clock as that i how i see it.

 

[Hitch]

so when was the thousand yrs ended in if it started there should be a timeline?

if it was a day or some that that john started

and if you take the behold i cometh quickly as shortly what then?

he doesnt work like we do. he will come but not when we says he does.

again when did that literal or figurative time happen.

dates? and when did it end and if that 1000 k isnt literal then justify why you are a literal young earth creationist as that is inconsistent.

are you not a reformist? and do you accept old earth or young earth?

i did ask you that, and you didnt answer so i assumed afirmative. if old then should me why

the earth could have been before the clock as that i how i see it.

I cant decipher this

 

[jasoncran]

ok, simple for the older generation

are you not a young earth creationist or old earth creationist.

and if so why one or the other?

and when did the time clock start on that reign as john sees it ahead of him.

and also time lengths(shortly, and quickly) are relative to the lord as he knows when we dont.

i think he says that so that we act and live accordingly thus" in an hour ye think not.."

 

[Alabaster]

[/b]

To each his own. But trust me...I am not offended by those who believe or try to support a pretrib rapture theory. Freed is more like it. For me the verses are found in many passages.

I am glad you are not offended, but freed is not correct, for interpretation is not a bondage. These are not serious salvific matters. They are unfruitful disputes that many have.

There is NO scripture that squashes either camp! We all use the same scriptures to assert our positions. That is why these are matters pertaining to interpretation only. We will all find out eventually, so to point fingers, calling people deceived, or in bondage or heretics is way over the top, spiritually, and God is not pleased with it.

 

[D4Christ]

I am glad you are not offended, but freed is not correct, for interpretation is not a bondage. These are not serious salvific matters. They are unfruitful disputes that many have.

There is NO scripture that squashes either camp! We all use the same scriptures to assert our positions. That is why these are matters pertaining to interpretation only. We will all find out eventually, so to point fingers, calling people deceived, or in bondage or heretics is way over the top, spiritually, and God is not pleased with it.

Freed is correct for me. My search for the truth was not done in a debate forum. It was simply me combing thru the scriptures at all hours trying to find the truth. Discussion is not the same as dispute since I am not trying to change anyone's mind and therefore, for me at least, has been very fruitful.

My goal is not to point fingers, although, I am not opposed to identifying theories or persons that twist the scriptures. On these matters I won't be silent. That being said, I do not think God is upset with those who are desparately seeking the truth...for ultimately there can only be One Truth.

John 8

31 Jesus said to the people who believed in him, “You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings. 32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.â€

 

[Hitch]

ok, simple for the older generation

are you not a young earth creationist or old earth creationist.

and if so why one or the other?

Young, I dont need to account for millions/billions of years.

and when did the time clock start on that reign as john sees it ahead of him.

When Christ assumed the throne

and also time lengths(shortly, and quickly) are relative to the lord as he knows when we dont.

Yeah maybe he had his fingers crossed. Take a hint you and all the others playing this game are telling the world that your God is such and idiot he cant figure out how to relay the timeing of events to his own people . How dare you.

i think he says that so that we act and live accordingly thus" in an hour ye think not.."

And that has what to do with the meaning of R1;1-3?

Exactly nothing.

 

[jasoncran]

Young, I dont need to account for millions/billions of years. When Christ assumed the throne Yeah maybe he had his fingers crossed. Take a hint you and all the others playing this game are telling the world that your God is such and idiot he cant figure out how to relay the timeing of events to his own people . How dare you. And that has what to do with the meaning of R1;1-3?

Exactly nothing.

really? i have recieved word that God was going to heal me from porn(and that was ten yrs later and it was the word used shortly).

did i say that. and heres the problem if the kingdom was assummed and it talks about the reigning of christ and then saints in the future(as revalation to john was things to come) you have a problem..

i thought so, young earth but oddly its not a thousand years when its convient

yes the lord reigns in heaven but not on earth as there a word of the saints who died and were beheaded and they reigned with the lord.

so if that is in the past in johns day when did that happen?

it speaks in future from john position he thrones and them with the lord during the beggining of the reign.

odd since its already done before john sees the vision.

 

[Hitch]

really? i have recieved word that God was going to heal me from porn(and that was ten yrs later and it was the word used shortly).

I cant help you held things up. But Im going to tell you something else, what ever 'word' you heard or were told doesnt compare to Scripture.

did i say that. and heres the problem if the kingdom was assummed and it talks about the reigning of christ and then saints in the future(as revalation to john was things to come) you have a problem..

Pay attention .Converts are added every day to the kingdom whether you like it or not

i thought so, young earth but oddly its not a thousand years when its convient

OK get out you Bible and show me anyhting about a thousand years in Genesis one

yes the lord reigns in heaven but not on earth as there a word of the saints who died and were beheaded and they reigned with the lord.

Is there some part of all power in heaven and earth you cant understand? Your trouble is you simply dont appove of his leadership, you have some notion that he should do it alll your way, not likely.

so if that is in the past in johns day when did that happen?

it speaks in future from john position he thrones and them with the lord during the beggining of the reign.

odd since its already done before john sees the vision.

I cant figure these last three.