ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?

[jasoncran]

the word shortly or soon isnt just used in the gospels and also the last book revalation but also in romans and the god of peace shall trample the enemy under your feet soon.

interesting aint it.

without getting into the creationist debate the idea of a few thousand being literal is from genealogy, not that verse visit answers in genesis for that, and search for ussher

john saw in the past eh?he looked back when its said in revalation 4;1 things that must come to pass shortly means something else?

we are reigning now with the lord in heaven? we are dead and have been beheaded and are reigning??

 

[Hitch]

the word shortly or soon isnt just used in the gospels and also the last book revalation but also in romans and the god of peace shall trample the enemy under your feet soon.

Actually the word translated 'at hand' is usually translated 'nigh' in the NT

interesting aint it.

without getting into the creationist debate the idea of a few thousand being literal is from genealogy, not that verse visit answers in genesis for that, and search for ussher

john saw in the past eh?he looked back when its said in revalation 4;1 things that must come to pass shortly means something else?

19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I have no idea what your problem is here

we are reigning now with the lord in heaven? we are dead and have been beheaded and are reigning??

Have you ever read the NT?
Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.



Understand something; When a believer dies he is then present with Christ, Christ is enthroned in heaven

Even though some think that means almost nothing. Exactly what the emeny wants them to think.

Since a believer reigns ,in this life through Christ ,what happens when that believer dies? Is he lost to the kingdom ? Or does he gain by becoming even closer of Chirst through death?

so you're got it the believer reigns in life and even more so in death.

Watch closely.

The rest of the dead, the unbelievers ,did NOTHING , until the end of the thousand years. Then all they get is raised dto eternal judgement. In the mean the believer has been doing what whether in the body or not?


Reigning with Christ.

1. Ephesians 1:20
   Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in theheavenly places,
   Ephesians 2:6
   And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

And if to die is gain that can only mean we are even closer to Christ Jesus OK?

 

[David505]

I compared the competing hypotheses and decided the pre-wrath position explained by VanKampen and Rosenthal made the most sense. Although I do not agree with all of their conclusions, I think VanKampen and Rosenthal are correct in essence: An equality between Tribulation and Daniel's 70th Week cannot be proven from Scripture.

Instead, Tribulation corresponds to a brief interval of time. Tribulation begins with Antichrist's occupation of Israel's Most Holy Place (Abomination of Desolation--mid 70th Week), and concludes with the Rapture, in anticipation of the outpouring of the Wrath Of God. Wrath proceeds until the 70th Week's conclusion--Second Coming).

 

[D4Christ]

I compared the competing hypotheses and decided the pre-wrath position explained by VanKampen and Rosenthal made the most sense. Although I do not agree with all of their conclusions, I think VanKampen and Rosenthal are correct in essence: An equality between Tribulation and Daniel's 70th Week cannot be proven from Scripture.

Amen!

 

[Hitch]

I compared the competing hypotheses and decided the pre-wrath position explained by VanKampen and Rosenthal made the most sense. Although I do not agree with all of their conclusions, I think VanKampen and Rosenthal are correct in essence: An equality between Tribulation and Daniel's 70th Week cannot be proven from Scripture.

Instead, Tribulation corresponds to a brief interval of time. Tribulation begins with Antichrist's occupation of Israel's Most Holy Place (Abomination of Desolation--mid 70th Week), and concludes with the Rapture, in anticipation of the outpouring of the Wrath Of God. Wrath proceeds until the 70th Week's conclusion--Second Coming).

Two questions very basic to the discussion.

Since 'rapture' requires the physical resurrection of the dead , and you place this event before outpouring of the Wrath of God, how do you account this in the light of John 6;39-54?

For what reason is the Wrath of God to be poured out according to Matthew and the other Gospels?

 

[reba]

I compared the competing hypotheses and decided the pre-wrath position explained by VanKampen and Rosenthal made the most sense. Although I do not agree with all of their conclusions, I think VanKampen and Rosenthal are correct in essence: An equality between Tribulation and Daniel's 70th Week cannot be proven from Scripture.

Instead, Tribulation corresponds to a brief interval of time. Tribulation begins with Antichrist's occupation of Israel's Most Holy Place (Abomination of Desolation--mid 70th Week), and concludes with the Rapture, in anticipation of the outpouring of the Wrath Of God. Wrath proceeds until the 70th Week's conclusion--Second Coming).

We are so blessed to have some quotes of Jesus! How about compairing hypotheses to the quotes of Jesus.

 

[David505]

We are so blessed to have some quotes of Jesus! How about compairing hypotheses to the quotes of Jesus.

Thanks reba,

Here's a well known quote, often cited with reference to the Rapture. I'm sure you'll agree the author is Jesus.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

 

[Hitch]

Thanks reba,

Here's a well known quote, often cited with reference to the Rapture. I'm sure you'll agree the author is Jesus.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

Authorship is not in question ,and I like the way you put it;


'often cited with reference to the Rapture'.


John 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


Of course we agree on who said the above ,oddly ,never cited with reference to the rapture.

 

[David505]

Authorship is not in question ,and I like the way you put it;


'often cited with reference to the Rapture'.


John 17:15
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


Of course we agree on who said the above ,oddly ,never cited with reference to the rapture.

Thanks, and also for the Lord's words, often cited with reference to the Great Commission.

 

[David505]

Two questions very basic to the discussion.

Since 'rapture' requires the physical resurrection of the dead , and you place this event before outpouring of the Wrath of God, how do you account this in the light of John 6;39-54?

For what reason is the Wrath of God to be poured out according to Matthew and the other Gospels?

Regarding John

I think your question relates to the correspondence between resurrection and ‘the last day’ according to the following verses:

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6: 39,40,44,54

If so, how can we account for resurrection (whether or not in anticipation of the outpouring of the Wrath of God) before the last day? That’s a good question. Similarly, how can we account for the resurrections of Lazarus, the daughter of Jarius, and the widow’s son (by Elijah) before the last day?

Matthew does not employ the phrase ‘Wrath of God’ but compares the wrath to the destructive potential of the Great Flood. As for the reason, I’d cite the following:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:18

 

[Scotth1960]

Thanks reba,

Here's a well known quote, often cited with reference to the Rapture. I'm sure you'll agree the author is Jesus.

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:10

Dear David, The Greek of Rev. 3:10, tereso ek, means "keep thee in the hour of trial", which has "keep in" in the NAB Bible, if memory serves me well. It does not mean to deliver from the world, but from within the time of trial. It is the same Greek verb that our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ uses in John chapter 17, when He says, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." It can mean "keep from" or "keep in", depending on the context. It means a deliverance, but it depends on HOW God chooses to deliver. God can deliver His Church IN the time of great tribulation to come, and to keep them "from" the Antichrist, not to take them out of the world (cf. St. John 17:15). Christ does not pray to take His people out of the world, but to keep them from all evil. In Erie PA Scott H.

 

[Hitch]

Regarding John

I think your question relates to the correspondence between resurrection and ‘the last day’ according to the following verses:

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6: 39,40,44,54

If so, how can we account for resurrection (whether or not in anticipation of the outpouring of the Wrath of God) before the last day? That’s a good question. Similarly, how can we account for the resurrections of Lazarus, the daughter of Jarius, and the widow’s son (by Elijah) before the last day?

Well add in all who were raised and seen in the city and all who were raised by the diciples. There is no record of the number. I think by now you've remembered that scripture ,though silent wrt the majority, tells us excactly when ol Laz will be raised. But it shouldnt need to be said Dave, that the resurrection of Christ is unique in history , unless you would care to make a case that Laz and the others ascended in to heaven and are now glorified in the same way our Lord is? Then obvousl;y there is a scriptural account that proves the nature of Chirst's resurrection is vastly different from that of your example. Or Christ is not the Firstfruits of the resurrection

Matthew does not employ the phrase ‘Wrath of God’ but compares the wrath to the destructive potential of the Great Flood. As for the reason, I’d cite the following:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:18

And this renders the personally spoken declaration of Jesus void? No, it has no effect on it at all. You must redifine what Jesus said or ignore it. Or better yet, center your view in what Jesus said.
No one argues the importance of 'Ye must be born-again' . Yet every day real believieing christains give no consideration, and some work to avoid, the plain simple rendering our Lord gave us ,four times in a row.

 

[Sam21]

There is nothing in Rev 3:10 that would tell us that Jesus was speaking of the great tribulation that He said would precede His return to gather the saints, so to use that particular scripture in reference to the gathering of the saints is to take a scripture out of context and place it in another context in order to support a position. A position should be able to be supported by literal in context scripture.
Of course one could make a spiritual teaching out of it that those who are completely trusting in Christ will be protected in the coming great tribulation.

 

[D4Christ]

There is nothing in Rev 3:10 that would tell us that Jesus was speaking of the great tribulation that He said would precede His return to gather the saints, so to use that particular scripture in reference to the gathering of the saints is to take a scripture out of context ...

You are right. Rev 3:10 is not talking about the Great Tribulaiton...it is talking about the wrath of God....an event that immediately follows the Great Tribulation.

Rev 3 (NLT)

10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.

The Great Tribulation is satan's persecution against the saints of God. The wrath of God is God's vengenace upon man and those who "belong to this world." Saints are never described in the bible as those belonging to this world. That classification is used for those who are enemies of God. Since the testing is coming to those who belong to the world, this phrase could not be referring to saints of God who are promised to escape the wrath of God.

2 cents,
Deirdre

 

[David505]

Dear David, The Greek of Rev. 3:10, tereso ek, means "keep thee in the hour of trial", which has "keep in" in the NAB Bible, if memory serves me well. It does not mean to deliver from the world, but from within the time of trial. It is the same Greek verb that our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ uses in John chapter 17, when He says, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." It can mean "keep from" or "keep in", depending on the context. It means a deliverance, but it depends on HOW God chooses to deliver. God can deliver His Church IN the time of great tribulation to come, and to keep them "from" the Antichrist, not to take them out of the world (cf. St. John 17:15). Christ does not pray to take His people out of the world, but to keep them from all evil. In Erie PA Scott H.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev3.pdf

 

[Scotth1960]

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev3.pdf

Dear David, The first 3 chapters of Revelation were written before 70 AD (ISTM), and were addressed to 7 ancient churches in Asia, which were to escape the great tribulation of Jerusalem in 70, when the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple. Christians would be kept safe from the tribulation outside of Jerusalem, when the church fled to the wilderness, in places like Petra. This verse has nothing to do with an alleged FUTURE great tribulation for Israel to come. That is problematic, and has not yet been decided by the GOC (Greek Orthodox Church), what these verses mean.
The Orthodox Church does not read Revelation in the Divine Liturgy. Only in the last days will Revelation be fully understood, and rightly. If we were indeed in the last days, it would be EVIDENT to the whole Christian Church, and all Christians would know what Revelation MEANS. Since NO ONE KNOWS WHAT ALL OF REVELATION means, we "know in part and prophecy in part" at this point. Nobody knows HOW REVELATION will be fulfilled in the FUTURE. Some of Revelation has already been fulfilled, like chapters 1 through 3. In Erie PA Scott H.

 

[David505]

Dear David, The first 3 chapters of Revelation were written before 70 AD (ISTM), and were addressed to 7 ancient churches in Asia, which were to escape the great tribulation of Jerusalem in 70, when the Romans destroyed the Jewish temple. Christians would be kept safe from the tribulation outside of Jerusalem, when the church fled to the wilderness, in places like Petra. This verse has nothing to do with an alleged FUTURE great tribulation for Israel to come. That is problematic, and has not yet been decided by the GOC (Greek Orthodox Church), what these verses mean.
The Orthodox Church does not read Revelation in the Divine Liturgy. Only in the last days will Revelation be fully understood, and rightly. If we were indeed in the last days, it would be EVIDENT to the whole Christian Church, and all Christians would know what Revelation MEANS. Since NO ONE KNOWS WHAT ALL OF REVELATION means, we "know in part and prophecy in part" at this point. Nobody knows HOW REVELATION will be fulfilled in the FUTURE. Some of Revelation has already been fulfilled, like chapters 1 through 3. In Erie PA Scott H.

The text I provided renders the phrase "I you shall be keeping out of the hour of trial" which appears to differ from your version. Are you quoting the NAB (Catholic) Bible?

Otherwise, I agree that John wrote Revelation for dissemination to the seven ancient churches, and that Revelation concerns "the things which thou [John] hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter (Rev. 1:19)."

I also agree that "If we were indeed in the last days, it would be EVIDENT to the whole Christian Church, and all Christians would know what Revelation MEANS. Since NO ONE KNOWS WHAT ALL OF REVELATION means, we 'know in part and prophecy in part' at this point."

That being the case, the interpretation that the verse in question "has nothing to do with an alleged FUTURE great tribulation for Israel to come" remains a matter of opinion.

 

[Sam21]

About 30 years ago the Lord begin to warn christians to take a another look at what the scriptures tell us about Christ return to gather the church. Since that time the scriptural evidence has been revealed that proves beyond any doubt that the pre-trib rapture is false and very dangerous, however many have chosen to reject the scriptural evidence and use denial and manipulation in order to maintain the pre-trib teaching. I am convinced that this is open rebellion against God in this area,I fear a judgment from God is coming and it will affect the entire church even though the problem is with the teachers. Most christians are confused in this area because Jesus said he would return after the tribulation and teachers are saying Jesus will return before the tribulation.
The average christian is torn between believing what his teacher is saying(pre-trib) and what he can read literal and in context in the bible(post-trib). I feel sorry for christians today because they are forced to chose between what God is actually saying in the scriptures(post-trib) and what their leaders are claiming that God is saying in the scriptures(pre-trib).

 

[D4Christ]

Sam21,

I understand your sentiments but you know what...I don't feel sorry for today's Christians. We are in such a better position than those who originally heard the scriptures. Most in our society are literate...we have access to the bible over the internet...and if you don't like to read there are movies. I don't just blame the teachers and the leaders for we are each in charge of our own minds. The "he made me do it" mentalitiy is not going to fly with God.

People listen to the lies because it's what they want to hear. Today's Christian is comfortable and "blessed" and does not to want to conceive that they may have to suffer before the Lord's return. They'd rather be in heaven at the banquet table 'eating chicken' as I heard one pastor describe it, while God in His infinite wisdom makes newly converted Christians suffer the GT by themselves.

2 Timothy 4: (NLT)

3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will reject the truth and chase after myths.
5 But you should keep a clear mind in every situation. Don’t be afraid of suffering for the Lord. Work at telling others the Good News, and fully carry out the ministry God has given you.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[Strangelove]

ok, simple for the older generation

are you not a young earth creationist or old earth creationist.

and if so why one or the other?

and when did the time clock start on that reign as john sees it ahead of him.

and also time lengths(shortly, and quickly) are relative to the lord as he knows when we dont.

i think he says that so that we act and live accordingly thus" in an hour ye think not.."

Hey Jason....

I see you havn't lost your knack for smacking a thread wildly off topic.

Soooooooooo....

Are you an ex-pre tribber yet?

I'll buy you a steak sandwich if you are. ;)

Doc.