ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?

[jasoncran]

No disrespect intended,...But it seems that you are attempting to get me to go into a multiple different dirrections with all your questions ...In which I can easily answer,.....But!...I do have a way of cutting through all the chase.

Those that come to Christ during Daniels 70th week are saved if they endure unto the end,..their faith will have to be evidenced by thier works continually either as a survivor or as a martyred saint.

Today we are saved by grace through faith alone and our works is a result of our faith........It's like in comparison,...We go to church on Sundays,.not because we have to,..but because we want to out of the Love in our heart for the Lord and of how greatful we are that He saved us.

But in daniels 70th week,...Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end(In his Faith), the same shall be saved.


This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

During Daniels 70th week ..salvation is conditional
Today ..prior to the pre-trib rapture,..we are saved by Grace
Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.

really? walk me through that, so that during the time of jeremiah he did have a choice to walk away? or ezekiel? or the fact that God said in ezekiel that he wouldnt let a man who was rightueos that turned wicked not be judged as wicked.

i am sorry. heres the problem i present to counter your entire argument.

1) God isnt fair to the babies that are born in the tribulation as they must "work" for their salvation, so if its the same faith in christ that gets one saved then how does grace not work that way for them. solo fide doesnt work anymore

2) ONLY they that survive the great tribulation not the bride judge men and angels yet that is a clear contradiction of what paul says in corinthians.

3) great is the number of these men saved. honestly if the jews in the times of horrible judgments from God couldnt keep the law what makes you think the trib saints will be saved? one cant reach God via legalism that was the whole point. you cant be good enough, you cant endure.

and this in context

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

hmm in paul day theres was many a war as rome was power hungry, earthquakes and pestilences and aslo false prophets. and sin did abound in the early church days. surely you read the part where paul removes a man for sleeping with his own mother in the church so that the word of God be not blasphemed amongst the greeks. or when he says when dies the church shall depart from that which he taught.

so the Gospel is changed in this tribulation? i dont buy that at all. when the trib saints read paul and james.will now the part where james says its faith with works that does it is the truth or its what paul said on faith.

and btw both dont contradict each other.

 

[pretrib]

really? walk me through that, so that during the time of jeremiah he did have a choice to walk away? or ezekiel? or the fact that God said in ezekiel that he wouldnt let a man who was rightueos that turned wicked not be judged as wicked.

i am sorry. heres the problem i present to counter your entire argument.

1) God isnt fair to the babies that are born in the tribulation as they must "work" for their salvation, so if its the same faith in christ that gets one saved then how does grace not work that way for them. solo fide doesnt work anymore

2) ONLY they that survive the great tribulation not the bride judge men and angels yet that is a clear contradiction of what paul says in corinthians.

3) great is the number of these men saved. honestly if the jews in the times of horrible judgments from God couldnt keep the law what makes you think the trib saints will be saved? one cant reach God via legalism that was the whole point. you cant be good enough, you cant endure.

and this in context

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

hmm in paul day theres was many a war as rome was power hungry, earthquakes and pestilences and aslo false prophets. and sin did abound in the early church days. surely you read the part where paul removes a man for sleeping with his own mother in the church so that the word of God be not blasphemed amongst the greeks. or when he says when dies the church shall depart from that which he taught.

so the Gospel is changed in this tribulation? i dont buy that at all. when the trib saints read paul and james.will now the part where james says its faith with works that does it is the truth or its what paul said on faith.

and btw both dont contradict each other.

It seems that you are still avoiding my presentation.

I recall that babies are not held accountable until they understand the difference between right and wrong.

So that I am not misunderstood......that these tribulation survivors aren't being judged by their works. Their works are being cited as evidence of their faith, as in James 2:18......But just like it's been throughout history, all are saved by faith.

The 10 bridesmaid all behaved badly(They all fell asleep),..But 5 had enough oil(Holy Spirit)..and the other five were told to go find their own,.....and went out to find some oil,..but they were too late,....and knocked on the door but the Lord did not recognize them obviously there is a cutoff point before the Lord returns.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end(In his Faith), the same shall be saved.(works is a product of their faith in helping the Jew,..feeding clothing, and sheltering and hiding this person from the beast at the risk of their lives, (The sheep and Goat Judgement.) The salvation is conditional.
Blessed is him that blesses thee.and curseth is him that curseth thee.(Genesis 27:29)
They are helping their brother because they believe,...the act of feeding clothing and sheltering their brother at the risk of their lives is an act of works a.....product evidenced by the faith they believe in.
It's like when you get Jesus in your heart,...the product is you cannot keep your mouth shut about Jesus.
You shall know them by their fruit.
You may believe and wait on Jesus,..but you will be tested,(The mark or martyrom) because the trib saints that are not the bride are not saved by grace,....if they were saved by grace,..there would not be any point at all to test them,..because we have been saved by grace and not by works.If one is being tested,..then their salvation is conditional,..which must be evidenced by their faith...such as.... Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end(In his Faith), the same shall be saved.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

Speaking of the perilous times after the introduction of the Mark of the Beast, the Lord had John say that both obedience and faith will be required of Tribulation believers, whereas the Church is saved by grace through faith alone.
"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." (Rev. 16:15.)

When used symbolically, clothing always stands for righteousness. Note that it's the Tribulation believer's responsibility to maintain his righteousness. It's not imputed to him solely by faith as ours is.

Do you understand?

 

[jasoncran]

It seems that you are still avoiding my presentation.

I recall that babies are not held accountable until they understand the difference between right and wrong.

So that I am not misunderstood......that these tribulation survivors aren't being judged by their works. Their works are being cited as evidence of their faith, as in James 2:18......But just like it's been throughout history, all are saved by faith.

The 10 bridesmaid all behaved badly(They all fell asleep),..But 5 had enough oil(Holy Spirit)..and the other five were told to go find their own,.....and went out to find some oil,..but they were too late,....and knocked on the door but the Lord did not recognize them obviously there is a cutoff point before the Lord returns.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end(In his Faith), the same shall be saved.(works is a product of their faith in helping the Jew,..feeding clothing, and sheltering and hiding this person from the beast at the risk of their lives, (The sheep and Goat Judgement.) The salvation is conditional.
Blessed is him that blesses thee.and curseth is him that curseth thee.(Genesis 27:29)
They are helping their brother because they believe,...the act of feeding clothing and sheltering their brother at the risk of their lives is an act of works a.....product evidenced by the faith they believe in.
It's like when you get Jesus in your heart,...the product is you cannot keep your mouth shut about Jesus.
You shall know them by their fruit.
You may believe and wait on Jesus,..but you will be tested,(The mark or martyrom) because the trib saints that are not the bride are not saved by grace,....if they were saved by grace,..there would not be any point at all to test them,..because we have been saved by grace and not by works.If one is being tested,..then their salvation is conditional,..which must be evidenced by their faith...such as.... Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end(In his Faith), the same shall be saved.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

Speaking of the perilous times after the introduction of the Mark of the Beast, the Lord had John say that both obedience and faith will be required of Tribulation believers, whereas the Church is saved by grace through faith alone.
"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." (Rev. 16:15.)

When used symbolically, clothing always stands for righteousness. Note that it's the Tribulation believer's responsibility to maintain his righteousness. It's not imputed to him solely by faith as ours is.

Do you understand?

what?

so paul didnt die for the lord neither did james and their faith wasnt tested?

and people dont die today in these countries?
china, iran, iraq, afghanistan, and aslo sudan and india.

men do die today for their faith .

peter was crucified. so when the trib saints read that version of the bible how will they know what real faith is?

the works based conditional one of your proposal or what they conclude

no, i know your argument. it goes from salvation is a gift to salvation is conditional

but wait when paul said this salvation is gift and not of works lest ANY man should boast theres time limit to that? really?

and you dodged my question. how is that that they which arent in grace rule over the cities of men in the millenium? that isnt possible.

i dont buy eternal security, salvation is contigent on us staying in christ. we can choose to walk away.

i know a man from my church who went from a christian to an agnostic and came back but he admits that he was mad at God during those agnostic yrs.

its hard but it is possible.

God never said have faith and thats it. he said through james its faith with works.meaing that if you have real faith it will have works

you dont understand solo fide and what it is. if i say i love you to my wife and she doesnt see me hug her, make love to her,and treat her right then is my love real?NO.

likewise i may one day be faithful to my wife and then cheat on her and decide by my actions i dont love the her anymore, and divorce her.

so likewise with the lord.can a saved man kill a man and still be right with God when he dies if he doesnt repent? will a man who doesnt forgive his neighbor be forgiven himself?

NO. for if ye dont forgive other ye yourself arent forgiven by the father in heaven. so that means?

 

[Lehigh3]

pretrib,
There is only one "time of the end" the "end" "the last day" spoken of in Scripture.
(Matt.24) The "end of the age" was AD70.

Still think the church (after salvation) is not judged by their works? Think again.
(Rev.2&3)

Still want to take a chance that you will be "raptured" or even "saved" in another Great tribulation on Israel, as in the 1st century AD? (mystery Babylon)

Yup, you're going to need "works" & to adhere to more than just the one commandment of loving God!


So, good luck with the future judgment!
Matt.25:31-46 NKJV,

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous intoeternal life.â€


Good luck!

 

[pretrib]

what?

so paul didnt die for the lord neither did james and their faith wasnt tested?

and people dont die today in these countries?
china, iran, iraq, afghanistan, and aslo sudan and india.

men do die today for their faith .

peter was crucified. so when the trib saints read that version of the bible how will they know what real faith is?

the works based conditional one of your proposal or what they conclude

no, i know your argument. it goes from salvation is a gift to salvation is conditional

but wait when paul said this salvation is gift and not of works lest ANY man should boast theres time limit to that? really?

and you dodged my question. how is that that they which arent in grace rule over the cities of men in the millenium? that isnt possible.

i dont buy eternal security, salvation is contigent on us staying in christ. we can choose to walk away.

i know a man from my church who went from a christian to an agnostic and came back but he admits that he was mad at God during those agnostic yrs.

its hard but it is possible.

God never said have faith and thats it. he said through james its faith with works.meaing that if you have real faith it will have works

you dont understand solo fide and what it is. if i say i love you to my wife and she doesnt see me hug her, make love to her,and treat her right then is my love real?NO.

likewise i may one day be faithful to my wife and then cheat on her and decide by my actions i dont love the her anymore, and divorce her.

so likewise with the lord.can a saved man kill a man and still be right with God when he dies if he doesnt repent? will a man who doesnt forgive his neighbor be forgiven himself?

NO. for if ye dont forgive other ye yourself arent forgiven by the father in heaven. so that means?

You quote:
what?

so paul didnt die for the lord neither did james and their faith wasnt tested?

My reply:
Paul and James salvation was not conditional, for they were saved by Grace through faith


You quote:
and people dont die today in these countries?
china, iran, iraq, afghanistan, and aslo sudan and india.

men do die today for their faith .

My Reply:
that is correct,..and these are already saved,..therefore cannot lose their salvation.

You Quote:

peter was crucified. so when the trib saints read that version of the bible how will they know what real faith is?


My Reply:
John 6:29
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

You Quote:
but wait when paul said this salvation is gift and not of works lest ANY man should boast theres time limit to that? really?

My Reply:
As I have revealed,..today, we are saved by Grace(Not conditional)
Our works is a product of our faith in Whom we believe in.
You shall know them by their fruit.
It's like when you get Jesus inside you,..the product is you cannot keep your mouth shut about Him,..you just want to tell everybody!
It's not about us...it is all about Him,..only He receives all the honor and Glory that are His and His alone!...Praise His Mighty Name JESUS!!!
Without Jesus,..you can do nothing of your own.

You Quote:
and you dodged my question. how is that that they which arent in grace rule over the cities of men in the millenium? that isnt possible.


My Reply:
These(resurrected trib Martyred Saints are already saved) and have new bodies that are immortal.

You Quote:
i dont buy eternal security, salvation is contigent on us staying in christ. we can choose to walk away.


My Reply:
If you were truely sincere in asking the Lord into your heart,..you then were at that moment sealed by the Promise of the Holy Spirit and were saved,..and it is impossible for such a one to willfully wal;k away,..or eles they were never truely saved in the first place,..there is no such thing as ..."I used to be a christian......Either you are saved or you are not.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

"You are not your own," "You were bought with a price." (1 Cor. 6:19-20)


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:38-40)

Just in case some missed this promise(John 10:28-30.) "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The Father and the Son have both accepted responsibility for our security. Once we're in Their hands, no one can get us away.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)


2 Cor. 1:21-22. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. This time He removed all doubt as to just Who it is that keeps us saved. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. What could be clearer?


For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The result is OSAS,it is not in your hands to walk away from Christ Jesus once you are truely saved.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[pretrib]

pretrib,
There is only one "time of the end" the "end" "the last day" spoken of in Scripture.
(Matt.24) The "end of the age" was AD70.

Still think the church (after salvation) is not judged by their works? Think again.
(Rev.2&3)

Still want to take a chance that you will be "raptured" or even "saved" in another Great tribulation on Israel, as in the 1st century AD? (mystery Babylon)

Yup, you're going to need "works" & to adhere to more than just the one commandment of loving God!


So, good luck with the future judgment!
Matt.25:31-46 NKJV,

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€


Good luck!

..And Good luck to you.

10 Reasons Why ‘This Generation’ Doesn’t Mean ‘My First-Century Audience’

1. Because Christ told the Jews the Great Tribulation would begin when they saw the abomination of desolation (spoken of by Daniel the prophet) stand in the Holy Place (Matt. 24: 15). There is no evidence that the parallel visions of Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, & 12 were fulfilled in A.D. 67-70, and yet such evidence is needed to prove that “that generation†saw the “abomination of desolation†which set off the “Great Tribulation.â€

2. Because there was no visible coming of Christ in the first century. The world would not have missed such an event had it happened, for Christ said His coming would be like lightning, shining from the east even unto the west (Matt. 24: 27).

3. Because the view has no Biblical analogy. God always sent His prophets to address Israel as a corporate body. There is not one instance in Scripture in which a certain generation of Israelites was singled out to receive teachings that would expire when they ‘passed away.’ The curses of Deut. 28 were spoken by Moses to the “generation in the wilderness,†and yet according to Preterists they weren’t fulfilled until 1,500 years later! Obviously both Moses and his antitype Jesus Christ were addressing Israel as a corporate body.

4. Because there was no resurrection of the dead in A.D. 70. To claim that there was is a gratuitous assumption, with no proof whatsoever to back it. Previous resurrections mentioned in Scripture were verifiable events (e.g. John 11: 43-45; Matt. 27: 52-53). Why would the wholesale resurrection of believers be any different? Moreover, Daniel places resurrection in connection with the Great Tribulation (Dan. 1-2). This gives us an important hint (see Reason #1) that the Preterist theory of “this generation†is mistaken.

5. Because the Roman armies were never destroyed in A.D. 70. According to Scripture, when Christ returns He will fight against the nations that attack Jerusalem (Zech. 12: 9, 14: 3; cf. Isa. 66: 15-16; Zeph. 3: 8).

6. Because the Jewish nation was never converted in A.D. 70. According to Scripture, Christ will only come back when the Jewish nation repents (Matt. 23: 39; Acts 3: 19-21; Zech. 12: 10). When the siege is lifted by Messiah, blindness will be permanently removed from the Jewish nation (Isa. 29).

7. Because the alleged ‘tribulation’ of A.D. 67-70 was strictly local in nature. But according to Scripture, the real tribulation is to include “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues†(Rev. 7: 9-14). It is likened to “an hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world (kosmos) to try them that dwell upon the earth†(Rev. 3: 10).

8. Because the early church knew nothing about any parousia happening in the 1st century. The view that there was an invisible, hypothetical ‘coming of Christ’ in A.D. 70 is a product of post-Reformation theology. As Thomas Ice has correctly stated: “It was not until the seventeenth century that we have an extant record of anyone suggesting anything like a preterist view that refers Matthew 24:27 and 30 to a.d. 70.â€

9. Because the Olivet Discourse was spoken privately to Peter, James, John, and Andrew (Mark 13: 3), three of whom never lived to see the destruction of the temple; whilst John himself was nowhere near the vicinity of Jerusalem when the temple was destroyed. Thus when Christ says, “When YE shall see all these things†(Matt. 24: 33), it is obvious that His predictions involve the nation, and not His immediate audience.

10. Because lexicons and concordances always list ‘race/nation’ as an accepted rendering of the Greek word ‘genea.’ The Septuagint warrants this usage in several places (Gen. 31: 3, 43: 7; Lev. 20: 18, 25: 41; Numbers 10: 30; Jer. 8: 3, 10: 23). Also, when the KJV was first published in 1611, the English word “generation†was often ued to denote a race or nation. An early Bible dictionary even lists Matt. 24: 34 as a proof-text for this usage. For more info, see “The Quarterly Journal of Prophecy.â€

 

[jasoncran]

You quote:
what?

so paul didnt die for the lord neither did james and their faith wasnt tested?

My reply:
Paul and James salvation was not conditional, for they were saved by Grace through faith


You quote:
and people dont die today in these countries?
china, iran, iraq, afghanistan, and aslo sudan and india.

men do die today for their faith .

My Reply:
that is correct,..and these are already saved,..therefore cannot lose their salvation.

You Quote:

peter was crucified. so when the trib saints read that version of the bible how will they know what real faith is?


My Reply:
John 6:29
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

You Quote:
but wait when paul said this salvation is gift and not of works lest ANY man should boast theres time limit to that? really?

My Reply:
As I have revealed,..today, we are saved by Grace(Not conditional)
Our works is a product of our faith in Whom we believe in.
You shall know them by their fruit.
It's like when you get Jesus inside you,..the product is you cannot keep your mouth shut about Him,..you just want to tell everybody!
It's not about us...it is all about Him,..only He receives all the honor and Glory that are His and His alone!...Praise His Mighty Name JESUS!!!
Without Jesus,..you can do nothing of your own.

You Quote:
and you dodged my question. how is that that they which arent in grace rule over the cities of men in the millenium? that isnt possible.


My Reply:
These(resurrected trib Martyred Saints are already saved) and have new bodies that are immortal.

You Quote:
i dont buy eternal security, salvation is contigent on us staying in christ. we can choose to walk away.


My Reply:
If you were truely sincere in asking the Lord into your heart,..you then were at that moment sealed by the Promise of the Holy Spirit and were saved,..and it is impossible for such a one to willfully wal;k away,..or eles they were never truely saved in the first place,..there is no such thing as ..."I used to be a christian......Either you are saved or you are not.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

"You are not your own," "You were bought with a price." (1 Cor. 6:19-20)


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:38-40)

Just in case some missed this promise(John 10:28-30.) "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The Father and the Son have both accepted responsibility for our security. Once we're in Their hands, no one can get us away.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)


2 Cor. 1:21-22. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. This time He removed all doubt as to just Who it is that keeps us saved. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. What could be clearer?


For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The result is OSAS,it is not in your hands to walk away from Christ Jesus once you are truely saved.
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

so God arbitrairlary decides op grace is done. and now its you gotta work for it this time.

the problem is this.

paul believed that we are in the last days when he wrote hebrews!

the part where you quote jesus saying to the ten brides is also implies his return

so christ comes three times for his saints.

no. i dont buy eternal security as i believe in free will.my church is a pre-trib and they are most arminists.my pastor teaches dogmatic(though not salvinical if one disagrees with him on eschatology)pre-trib eschatology.

he isnt the only one, one of two churches that are that that i have attended.

i dont buy that all. how is the trib saint to know his salvation is conditional that he has to be beheaded for the lord? again the trib saint is the only that reigns with christ not the bride.

that is a big problem as i know most pre-tribbers disagree.

so lets see how does on do works for the lord and cast out demons in his name if he isnt in christ? im, sure that parable does mention that when the goats and sheep are seperated.

 

[jasoncran]

revalation 20 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

so can you explain this to me? why only the trib saints reign with the lord?

yet paul says this to those in the grace age?

1 corinthinians 6

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.


can you fix that delimma?

 

[Sam21]

I accepted that there was a pre-trib rapture like all christians because everyone believed in it,however as time went on I found that no one really knew WHY. The christians who really tried to use the bible to explain the pre-trib rapture would always end up making themselves look foolish,I noticed this while I still believed in the pre-trib rapture. Folks, I wish there there was a pre-trib rapture,if God would let me insert one in the bible somewhere then I would. The problem with the pre-trib rapture is that it does not, nor has it ever, existed in the bible! It was an idea brought forth mostly by John Darby around 1830 and placed in the bibles in America by Schofield and became accepted as bible...so we all grew up with it. About 30 years ago God begin to move on christians who would listen, concerning the return of Christ, since then christians have been finding that pre-trib rapture is not in the bible. What is really sad is that many old bible teachers and leaders have decided to reject what is being pointed out in the bible. Sigh! that is the jealous nature of the flesh that christians are not suppose to have but that is keeping most christians in the dark about the return of Christ. I don't know how many times I have heard good solid christians call into the JS bible answer program and point out 2Thess 2 only to have the folks at JS reject the word of God in this area.

 

[pretrib]

so God arbitrairlary decides op grace is done. and now its you gotta work for it this time.

the problem is this.

paul believed that we are in the last days when he wrote hebrews!

the part where you quote jesus saying to the ten brides is also implies his return

so christ comes three times for his saints.

no. i dont buy eternal security as i believe in free will.my church is a pre-trib and they are most arminists.my pastor teaches dogmatic(though not salvinical if one disagrees with him on eschatology)pre-trib eschatology.

he isnt the only one, one of two churches that are that that i have attended.

i dont buy that all. how is the trib saint to know his salvation is conditional that he has to be beheaded for the lord? again the trib saint is the only that reigns with christ not the bride.

that is a big problem as i know most pre-tribbers disagree.

so lets see how does on do works for the lord and cast out demons in his name if he isnt in christ? im, sure that parable does mention that when the goats and sheep are seperated.

You Quote:
so God arbitrairlary decides op grace is done. and now its you gotta work for it this time.

My Reply:
obviously you missed this when I posted it earlier...allow me to post it again.

"So that I am not misunderstood......that these tribulation survivors aren't being" judged by their works. Their works are being cited as evidence of their faith, as in James 2:18......But just like it's been throughout history, all are saved by faith.


You Quote:
the part where you quote jesus saying to the ten brides is also implies his return

My Reply:
And the Lord returns as a married man before He comes back to reign.(Luke 12;36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

You Quote:
so christ comes three times for his saints.


My Reply:
No...just once to take them and marry them
and then He comes back to reign for a thousand years.

You Quote:
i dont buy that all. how is the trib saint to know his salvation is conditional that he has to be beheaded for the lord? again the trib saint is the only that reigns with christ not the bride.

My Reply:
You shall know them by their fruit
Well if you denie Jesus and take the mark,..then it is obvious that you were never sincere in your faith,..but if you refuse the mark and refuse to denie Jesus as your Lord and savior and die for what you believe,..then your faith has been evidensed by your faith in Him.

You Quote:
so lets see how does on do works for the lord and cast out demons in his name if he isnt in christ? im, sure that parable does mention that when the goats and sheep are seperated.

My Reply:
The Holy Spirit was already taken out of the way before Daniels 70th week began,.....You seem confused,..allow me to help you understand.

We know that the holy spirit is omnipresent and was present before the creation of the world.
The old testament saints,..where worthy of heaven when they had lived and died in faith.Their works followed them.King David cried out that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him when he had committed adultery.Under the Mosiac Law,....if you committed one sin,...then it was like committing them all.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that the Holy spirit is omnipresent.
This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!
And on the day of Pentecost,...The church age was born!
Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.
And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,...The Bride who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, hinders the revealing of the son of perdition,....is taken out of the way.
The church age will be over,the bride caught up into the air to meet the Lord.
The Holy spirit is still omnipresent,...and those who were left behind will have one of the greatest incentives the world has ever wittnessed to come to Christ Jesus...THE RAPTURE!.

You Quote:
no. i dont buy eternal security

My Reply:
No need to buy it,.it's free,..and paid for in FULL! on the cross of calvary.....there is not one thing that you can do to add to your salvation,..it's already been done,..the price has been paid!!!..Praise His Mighty Name JESUS!!!

 

[XTruth]

Dear Friends, How did God save you from the heresy which is the pre-tribulation rapture teaching? How did you learn there is only one second coming of Christ, and not 2 future comings of Christ, as pre-tribulationism teaches? Which verses OF THE BIBLE showed you the pre-tribulation teaching is WRONG (HERETICAL)? I believe that John Hagee is one of the more vocal preachers of this heresy, don't you?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

The following research is from Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible and if you took the time to look up and read the references then you'd know this to be true.

Two Comings of the Lord From Heaven, But Only One Coming to the Earth

1. A coming of the Lord out of heaven for the saints to meet them in the air and to take them to heaven without coming to the earth (1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Thess 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; 2 Thess. 2:1,7-8; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; Col. 3:4; Eph. 5:27; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10).

2. A coming of the Lord out of heaven with His previously raptured saints to bring them to the earth to fight at Armageddon and to set up a kingdom in the world forever (Rev. 19:1-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2 Thess 2:7-8; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-5; Dan. 2:44-45; Dan 7:9-14,18,22,27).


20 CONTRASTS BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT



1. The rapture is a going up to heaven of all saved men of all past ages (John. 14:1-3; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), whereas the second advent is a coming down from heaven to earth of the same people (Rev. 19:11-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-9).

2. The rapture is a coming of Christ from heaven to the clouds (not to the earth) for the saints-both dead (who will be resurrected) and alive-to take them to heaven (1 Thess. 4:16), while the second advent is a coming from heaven with the previously raptured saints to set up a kingdom and rule eternally (Zech. 14:1-9; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 22:4-5; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 25:31-46; Isa. 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-15,18,22,27; Lk. 1:32-36).

3. Our goal in the rapture is heaven to live with Christ in our mansions (John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8), while the goal in the second advent is to leave heaven for the earth to reign forever (Zech. 14; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11 - Rev 20:10).

4. At the rapture Christ does not come to destroy the Antichrist or any other wicked man but to remove the hinderer of lawlessness (the church, Chapter 10, Proof 1), so that the Antichrist can come (2 Thess. 2:7-8), while at the second advent Christ comes back to the earth with all saints of all ages to destroy Antichrist and multitudes of wicked men (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 7:11; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19:11-21; see also Mt. 24:37-42;Mt 25:31-46; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14).

5. At the rapture Christ comes from heaven to the clouds only (not to the earth) to take the good from among the bad (John. 5:28-29; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; Jas. 5:7-8), while at the second advent-years later-He comes to the earth with His raptured saints to take the bad from among the good (Mt. 13:30,39-43,49-50;Mt 24:29-31,37-42; Jude 14-15; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

6. At the rapture only those qualified for heaven will be raptured (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6); only those who are born again will be changed from mortality to immortality and go to heaven. At the second advent, on the other hand, any and all men qualified to live on the earth as citizens will be permitted to continue as natural people into the next age, without any change from mortality to immortality (Mt. 25:31-46; Zech. 8:23;Zech 14:1-21; Isa. 2:2-4;Isa 66:19-21; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 2:27-28; Rev 11:15; Rev 20:4-6).

7. At the rapture there will be no battle of Armageddon (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16), while at the second advent Armageddon will be fought (Zech. 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev 19:11-21; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39).

8. At the rapture there will be no change of home lands on earth among the nations (John. 14:1-3), while at the second advent there will be a general separation of nations back to their original home lands, including Israel (Isa. 11:11-12; Deut 32:8; Ezek. 37; Mt. 24:31; Acts 17:26).

9. At the rapture no man will be sent to hell, but all saints will be taken to heaven (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), while at the second advent millions of men will be sent to hell and none taken to heaven (Mt. 13:30,43-50;Mt 25:31-46; Isa. 14:9-15; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10).

10. At the rapture all saints will "escape all these things that shall come to pass" during the tribulation, and will "stand before the Son of man" (Lk. 21:34-36; John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:16;1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; see Chapter 10), whereas at the second advent no man who is subject to punishment will escape (Rev. 19:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

11. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:7-8) and before the tribulation and fulfillment of Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21, while the second advent will take place after these events (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:11-21). See Chapter 10.

12. At the rapture there will be a resurrection of all the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21), while at the second advent there will be no resurrection of any righteous man, for the first resurrection will then be over (Rev. 20:4-6).

13. At the time of the rapture no man on earth will know who the Antichrist is (2 Thess. 2:7-8), whereas at the second advent all men on earth in the civilized parts will know who he is (Rev. 13:16-18).

14. At the rapture the church and all others who are redeemed saints at that time will be presented to God in heaven (Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 3:13;1 Thess 5:23), while at the second advent all raptured saints will be presented to men on earth as their new rulers (Rev. 2:27; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 7:9-27).

15. Before the rapture there will be no marriage supper of the Lamb, whereas just before the second advent there will be such a supper of Christ with all the redeemed of all ages past (Rev. 19:1-21).

16. There will be a seven-year period of tribulation after the rapture (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21), whereas there will be no tribulation at all after the second advent, for the second coming of Christ ends all tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; Rev. 19-20).

17. There will be no end of the world (age) at the time of the rapture, while the age will definitely end at the time of the second advent of Christ to the earth (Mt. 24:1-3,29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 19:1 - Rev 20:10).

18. The rapture is an event that can take place any day without any prophecy being fulfilled or any sign coming to pass (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:21; Tit. 2:13; 1 Thess. 1:10), while the second advent cannot take place until all of the predictions in Mt. 24 - Mt. 25; Mk 13; Lk. 21:1-11,25-33; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; and Rev. 4:1 - Rev 19:10 have been fulfilled.

19. There will be no reign of the Antichrist before the rapture, but there will be such a reign before the second advent (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21).

20. There will be no martyrdoms of saints after the second advent, while there will be multitudes of martyrs after the rapture and between the time of the rapture and the second advent (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev 7:9-17; Rev 13:7; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24; Rev 20:4-6).





We conclude then, that if the church and all other raptured saints are to eat a marriage supper with Christ in heaven (as in Rev. 19:1-10), which happens just before the second advent begins (as in Rev. 19:11-21), then the church cannot remain on earth through the tribulation period. It must arrive in heaven prior to the time of the second advent. Furthermore, if the saints are to leave with Christ at the second advent they must already be up in heaven before that time so as to be able to return with Him. And since the rapture can take place at any moment (as taught in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:21 and Tit. 2:13)-since it could have happened even in Paul's day according to these passages of Scripture-then we can be certain that the rapture will not take place at a specified time as in the case of the second advent which is predicted to happen at a particular time-that is, at the end of the tribulation period (Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21). This, to us, is truly conclusive proof that the rapture of the church and O.T. saints will take place before the tribulation begins.

 

[Hitch]

Why do you suppose Jesus got it all messed up X ?


No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Lehigh3]

..And Good luck to you.

10 Reasons Why ‘This Generation’ Doesn’t Mean ‘My First-Century Audience’

1. Because Christ told the Jews the Great Tribulation would begin when they saw the abomination of desolation (spoken of by Daniel the prophet) stand in the Holy Place (Matt. 24: 15). There is no evidence that the parallel visions of Daniel 7, 8, 9, 11, & 12 were fulfilled in A.D. 67-70, and yet such evidence is needed to prove that “that generation†saw the “abomination of desolation†which set off the “Great Tribulation.â€

2. Because there was no visible coming of Christ in the first century. The world would not have missed such an event had it happened, for Christ said His coming would be like lightning, shining from the east even unto the west (Matt. 24: 27).

3. Because the view has no Biblical analogy. God always sent His prophets to address Israel as a corporate body. There is not one instance in Scripture in which a certain generation of Israelites was singled out to receive teachings that would expire when they ‘passed away.’ The curses of Deut. 28 were spoken by Moses to the “generation in the wilderness,†and yet according to Preterists they weren’t fulfilled until 1,500 years later! Obviously both Moses and his antitype Jesus Christ were addressing Israel as a corporate body.

4. Because there was no resurrection of the dead in A.D. 70. To claim that there was is a gratuitous assumption, with no proof whatsoever to back it. Previous resurrections mentioned in Scripture were verifiable events (e.g. John 11: 43-45; Matt. 27: 52-53). Why would the wholesale resurrection of believers be any different? Moreover, Daniel places resurrection in connection with the Great Tribulation (Dan. 1-2). This gives us an important hint (see Reason #1) that the Preterist theory of “this generation†is mistaken.

5. Because the Roman armies were never destroyed in A.D. 70. According to Scripture, when Christ returns He will fight against the nations that attack Jerusalem (Zech. 12: 9, 14: 3; cf. Isa. 66: 15-16; Zeph. 3: 8).

6. Because the Jewish nation was never converted in A.D. 70. According to Scripture, Christ will only come back when the Jewish nation repents (Matt. 23: 39; Acts 3: 19-21; Zech. 12: 10). When the siege is lifted by Messiah, blindness will be permanently removed from the Jewish nation (Isa. 29).

7. Because the alleged ‘tribulation’ of A.D. 67-70 was strictly local in nature. But according to Scripture, the real tribulation is to include “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues†(Rev. 7: 9-14). It is likened to “an hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world (kosmos) to try them that dwell upon the earth†(Rev. 3: 10).

8. Because the early church knew nothing about any parousia happening in the 1st century. The view that there was an invisible, hypothetical ‘coming of Christ’ in A.D. 70 is a product of post-Reformation theology. As Thomas Ice has correctly stated: “It was not until the seventeenth century that we have an extant record of anyone suggesting anything like a preterist view that refers Matthew 24:27 and 30 to a.d. 70.â€

9. Because the Olivet Discourse was spoken privately to Peter, James, John, and Andrew (Mark 13: 3), three of whom never lived to see the destruction of the temple; whilst John himself was nowhere near the vicinity of Jerusalem when the temple was destroyed. Thus when Christ says, “When YE shall see all these things†(Matt. 24: 33), it is obvious that His predictions involve the nation, and not His immediate audience.

10. Because lexicons and concordances always list ‘race/nation’ as an accepted rendering of the Greek word ‘genea.’ The Septuagint warrants this usage in several places (Gen. 31: 3, 43: 7; Lev. 20: 18, 25: 41; Numbers 10: 30; Jer. 8: 3, 10: 23). Also, when the KJV was first published in 1611, the English word “generation†was often used to denote a race or nation. An early Bible dictionary even lists Matt. 24: 34 as a proof-text for this usage. For more info, see “The Quarterly Journal of Prophecy.â€

No, you will have to do some other studying - & I will not work for dispy nonsense .

Jesus' use of "this generation" in the Greek was the "generation" word for His contemporaries. Look it up. The Greek makes all your post mute.
(I don't care what you say men say to sell books & or have nothing else to spoon feed about- since they can't even preach about the faith or any of the faith from the OT)


We could continue along these lines of investigation, but I choose to end the search for the meaning of this word "generation" with a quotation from the Works of Josephus where he uses the word "generation."

"I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly:– That neither did any other city [making reference to Jerusalem] ever suffered such miseries [referring to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans] nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this [generation] was, from the beginning of the world."
The Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chapter 10, Paragraph 51, Line 442.


Did you understand what the HISTORIAN said? And will you look up the Greek use for "this generation" shall be held liable for all the blood ........?

Answer my question in due time. Have you read the Works of Josephus? Do you know what I'm talking about?

 

[jasoncran]

You Quote:
so God arbitrairlary decides op grace is done. and now its you gotta work for it this time.

My Reply:
obviously you missed this when I posted it earlier...allow me to post it again.

"So that I am not misunderstood......that these tribulation survivors aren't being" judged by their works. Their works are being cited as evidence of their faith, as in James 2:18......But just like it's been throughout history, all are saved by faith.


You Quote:
the part where you quote jesus saying to the ten brides is also implies his return

My Reply:
And the Lord returns as a married man before He comes back to reign.(Luke 12;36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

You Quote:
so christ comes three times for his saints.


My Reply:
No...just once to take them and marry them
and then He comes back to reign for a thousand years.

You Quote:
i dont buy that all. how is the trib saint to know his salvation is conditional that he has to be beheaded for the lord? again the trib saint is the only that reigns with christ not the bride.

My Reply:
You shall know them by their fruit
Well if you denie Jesus and take the mark,..then it is obvious that you were never sincere in your faith,..but if you refuse the mark and refuse to denie Jesus as your Lord and savior and die for what you believe,..then your faith has been evidensed by your faith in Him.

You Quote:
so lets see how does on do works for the lord and cast out demons in his name if he isnt in christ? im, sure that parable does mention that when the goats and sheep are seperated.

My Reply:
The Holy Spirit was already taken out of the way before Daniels 70th week began,.....You seem confused,..allow me to help you understand.

We know that the holy spirit is omnipresent and was present before the creation of the world.
The old testament saints,..where worthy of heaven when they had lived and died in faith.Their works followed them.King David cried out that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him when he had committed adultery.Under the Mosiac Law,....if you committed one sin,...then it was like committing them all.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that the Holy spirit is omnipresent.
This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!
And on the day of Pentecost,...The church age was born!
Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.
And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,...The Bride who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, hinders the revealing of the son of perdition,....is taken out of the way.
The church age will be over,the bride caught up into the air to meet the Lord.
The Holy spirit is still omnipresent,...and those who were left behind will have one of the greatest incentives the world has ever wittnessed to come to Christ Jesus...THE RAPTURE!.

You Quote:
no. i dont buy eternal security

My Reply:
No need to buy it,.it's free,..and paid for in FULL! on the cross of calvary.....there is not one thing that you can do to add to your salvation,..it's already been done,..the price has been paid!!!..Praise His Mighty Name JESUS!!!

sigh, solo fide is defined as faith with works as evidence, no then you claim that
those that are in christ in the trib are tested. ok if its faith then

No need to buy it,.it's free,..and paid for in FULL! on the cross of calvary.....there is not one thing that you can do to add to your salvation,..it's already been done,..the price has been paid!!!..Praise His Mighty Name JESUS!!!

ok then so the cross is insufficient for the trib saint as his or her faith in God isnt enough. he didnt pray hard enough

no when i said i dont buy i meant i dont buy that doctrine.

really that means if i just seen the or heard of the massive disapearence then i can count to the day the lord returns.

he comes to the earth with his angels to gather his elect does he not? that is part of the same idea of the rapture is it not? yes it is.

and one can deny the lord. i have stated that elsewhere today as part of my testimony when i went into the bisexual lifestyle.

 

[jasoncran]

No...just once to take them and marry them
and then He comes back to reign for a thousand years.

SO THAT BESIDES HIS FIRST TIME MAKES IT THREE.

jesus said he would return once. so he doesnt marry the trib saints.odd?he doesnt love them enough?

 

[pretrib]

revalation 20 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

so can you explain this to me? why only the trib saints reign with the lord?

yet paul says this to those in the grace age?

1 corinthinians 6

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.


can you fix that delimma?

My Reply:
This is not a delimma,.....First of all,..As I pointed out earlier,..The Lord returns a married man.Luke 12;36and returns with His Bride.Jude 1;14
So it is the Bride and the trib saints that help rule and reign with the Lord.

In verse 3,..if you will take notice,..a rapture is never mentioned,..only a resurrection occurs,..and well after the fact that Armageddon is over.(Think about it)

If there were a rapture at the end of Daniels 70th week,..there would not be a need for the Sheep and Goat Judgement.
And again,.....if there were a rapture of "all" the Dead and alive in Christ Jesus,..there would be no mortal to repopulate the millennium.

Only Believers will populate the millennium,...but these survivors will procreate,..and these new people will not be forced to accept Jesus into their heart,..in those days ...man is still given free will.,..and of course,..we see what happens at the end of the millennium.

 

[Sam21]

The following research is from Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible and if you took the time to look up and read the references then you'd know this to be true.

Two Comings of the Lord From Heaven, But Only One Coming to the Earth

1. A coming of the Lord out of heaven for the saints to meet them in the air and to take them to heaven without coming to the earth (1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Thess 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; 2 Thess. 2:1,7-8; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; Col. 3:4; Eph. 5:27; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10).

2. A coming of the Lord out of heaven with His previously raptured saints to bring them to the earth to fight at Armageddon and to set up a kingdom in the world forever (Rev. 19:1-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2 Thess 2:7-8; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-5; Dan. 2:44-45; Dan 7:9-14,18,22,27).


20 CONTRASTS BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT



1. The rapture is a going up to heaven of all saved men of all past ages (John. 14:1-3; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), whereas the second advent is a coming down from heaven to earth of the same people (Rev. 19:11-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-9).

2. The rapture is a coming of Christ from heaven to the clouds (not to the earth) for the saints-both dead (who will be resurrected) and alive-to take them to heaven (1 Thess. 4:16), while the second advent is a coming from heaven with the previously raptured saints to set up a kingdom and rule eternally (Zech. 14:1-9; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 22:4-5; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 25:31-46; Isa. 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-15,18,22,27; Lk. 1:32-36).

3. Our goal in the rapture is heaven to live with Christ in our mansions (John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8), while the goal in the second advent is to leave heaven for the earth to reign forever (Zech. 14; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11 - Rev 20:10).

4. At the rapture Christ does not come to destroy the Antichrist or any other wicked man but to remove the hinderer of lawlessness (the church, Chapter 10, Proof 1), so that the Antichrist can come (2 Thess. 2:7-8), while at the second advent Christ comes back to the earth with all saints of all ages to destroy Antichrist and multitudes of wicked men (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 7:11; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19:11-21; see also Mt. 24:37-42;Mt 25:31-46; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14).

5. At the rapture Christ comes from heaven to the clouds only (not to the earth) to take the good from among the bad (John. 5:28-29; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; Jas. 5:7-8), while at the second advent-years later-He comes to the earth with His raptured saints to take the bad from among the good (Mt. 13:30,39-43,49-50;Mt 24:29-31,37-42; Jude 14-15; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

6. At the rapture only those qualified for heaven will be raptured (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6); only those who are born again will be changed from mortality to immortality and go to heaven. At the second advent, on the other hand, any and all men qualified to live on the earth as citizens will be permitted to continue as natural people into the next age, without any change from mortality to immortality (Mt. 25:31-46; Zech. 8:23;Zech 14:1-21; Isa. 2:2-4;Isa 66:19-21; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 2:27-28; Rev 11:15; Rev 20:4-6).

7. At the rapture there will be no battle of Armageddon (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16), while at the second advent Armageddon will be fought (Zech. 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev 19:11-21; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39).

8. At the rapture there will be no change of home lands on earth among the nations (John. 14:1-3), while at the second advent there will be a general separation of nations back to their original home lands, including Israel (Isa. 11:11-12; Deut 32:8; Ezek. 37; Mt. 24:31; Acts 17:26).

9. At the rapture no man will be sent to hell, but all saints will be taken to heaven (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), while at the second advent millions of men will be sent to hell and none taken to heaven (Mt. 13:30,43-50;Mt 25:31-46; Isa. 14:9-15; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10).

10. At the rapture all saints will "escape all these things that shall come to pass" during the tribulation, and will "stand before the Son of man" (Lk. 21:34-36; John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:16;1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; see Chapter 10), whereas at the second advent no man who is subject to punishment will escape (Rev. 19:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

11. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:7-8) and before the tribulation and fulfillment of Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21, while the second advent will take place after these events (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:11-21). See Chapter 10.

12. At the rapture there will be a resurrection of all the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21), while at the second advent there will be no resurrection of any righteous man, for the first resurrection will then be over (Rev. 20:4-6).

13. At the time of the rapture no man on earth will know who the Antichrist is (2 Thess. 2:7-8), whereas at the second advent all men on earth in the civilized parts will know who he is (Rev. 13:16-18).

14. At the rapture the church and all others who are redeemed saints at that time will be presented to God in heaven (Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 3:13;1 Thess 5:23), while at the second advent all raptured saints will be presented to men on earth as their new rulers (Rev. 2:27; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 7:9-27).

15. Before the rapture there will be no marriage supper of the Lamb, whereas just before the second advent there will be such a supper of Christ with all the redeemed of all ages past (Rev. 19:1-21).

16. There will be a seven-year period of tribulation after the rapture (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21), whereas there will be no tribulation at all after the second advent, for the second coming of Christ ends all tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; Rev. 19-20).

17. There will be no end of the world (age) at the time of the rapture, while the age will definitely end at the time of the second advent of Christ to the earth (Mt. 24:1-3,29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 19:1 - Rev 20:10).

18. The rapture is an event that can take place any day without any prophecy being fulfilled or any sign coming to pass (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:21; Tit. 2:13; 1 Thess. 1:10), while the second advent cannot take place until all of the predictions in Mt. 24 - Mt. 25; Mk 13; Lk. 21:1-11,25-33; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; and Rev. 4:1 - Rev 19:10 have been fulfilled.

19. There will be no reign of the Antichrist before the rapture, but there will be such a reign before the second advent (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21).

20. There will be no martyrdoms of saints after the second advent, while there will be multitudes of martyrs after the rapture and between the time of the rapture and the second advent (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev 7:9-17; Rev 13:7; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24; Rev 20:4-6).





We conclude then, that if the church and all other raptured saints are to eat a marriage supper with Christ in heaven (as in Rev. 19:1-10), which happens just before the second advent begins (as in Rev. 19:11-21), then the church cannot remain on earth through the tribulation period. It must arrive in heaven prior to the time of the second advent. Furthermore, if the saints are to leave with Christ at the second advent they must already be up in heaven before that time so as to be able to return with Him. And since the rapture can take place at any moment (as taught in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:21 and Tit. 2:13)-since it could have happened even in Paul's day according to these passages of Scripture-then we can be certain that the rapture will not take place at a specified time as in the case of the second advent which is predicted to happen at a particular time-that is, at the end of the tribulation period (Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21). This, to us, is truly conclusive proof that the rapture of the church and O.T. saints will take place before the tribulation begins.

There are two comings of the lord from heaven,the first decending of Christ from heaven is to gather the believers(rapture),the second descending of Christ from heaven is with the believers that He already gathered to defeat the antichrist. The pre-trib concept is screwed up because it is claiming that the return Jesus gave to the church is DIFFERENT than the return of Jesus described by Paul, they are described the same and the time frame is the same and they are the same. The tribulation Jesus described that would precede His return is a great persecution, not the wrath of God, after the church is gathered THEN the wrath of God begins and later Christ returns with the saints to defeat the antichrist. Pre-trib is off because they call the tribulation that Jesus described the wrath of God when it is not, they are also off because they claim Paul described a different return than Jesus described(not in scripture).

 

[pretrib]

SO THAT BESIDES HIS FIRST TIME MAKES IT THREE.

jesus said he would return once. so he doesnt marry the trib saints.odd?he doesnt love them enough?

My Reply:
Men were given plenty of signs to know and realize that He was about to call his bride home.
Jasoncran,..I pray that you come to recognize that you are right smack dab in the middle of the general time era of when the rapture would occur....you see,..we the Bride will not know about a Day or an Hour,..but we the Bride will recognize the general time era,...and that my friend is....NOW!

In the days ahead in our lifetime,...the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 prophecy will occur,..and Israel will destroy all her immediate surrounding Arab neighbors, and she will obtain all the land that God had promised Abraham's descendants.
During those days,..a false sense of security will come for Israel, and she will defence her walls and villages,..and then the prophecy of Ezekiel 38-39 will come to pass, and all the outer Islamic nations will be defeated by God Himself,..and then the antichrist will step forward.
But,...what you need to understand/recognize,...is that the Lord will rapture His Bride sometime between the Psalms 83 war and the Ezekiel 38-39 invasion, and it's possible that it may take several months for the false sense of security to develop as an established fact.
This Ezekiel 38-39 invasion occurrs at an unknown day or hour, and so too does the rapture occurrs at an unknown day or hour.
Ezekiel 38;18-20 begins the Day of the Lord.
It is believed by many that Ezekiel 38 will occur just slightly prior to Daniels 70th week.
The ancient Jewish wedding is a shadow type of the rapture and it too indicates that the Bride is in heaven only 7 years before returning with the Lord.
The Lord is described as returning as it was during the Days of Noah,...for they were marrying and giving in marriage,...this is the Lord describing a normal life setting,..which is not a description provided in Revelation 16,...which is all duck and cover.
,..the Lord even went one step further in making sure that one got the picture that He intended by stating that two women would be grinding at the mill,…one taken, the other left behind,..the point is they were both doing something in a normal setting,..they were working.
This picture presented is backed up by two more pictures as to a recognizable setting in a time of peace, in which I believe will be a false peace.
One other being 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5.
1 Thessalonians 4;16-17..the rapture of the Bride,..and that 1 Thessalonians 5 they will say peace and safety and sudden destruction will come upon …â€THEMâ€â€¦.and …â€THEY†shall not escape………I do not see anything there that states …â€US†or “BRIDEâ€

And last but not least,..Ezekiel 38;11-14…It was when Israel believed that she was dwelling in peace and safety,..that sudden destruction prevailed.
I believe that the rapture will occur just moments before Ezekiel 38,..and I believe that Ezekiel 38;18-20 are the beginning of the wrath of God.
This invasion you will see in Joel chapter 2(Consider the History of Israel before and after her birth, and Russia’s geographical description.
I believe that the coming war of Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 will result in a false peace,that is a requirement for Ezekiel 38.I do not know how long it will take for this false peace to take effect, and when in that general time that He will take us home,…only that we will understand the general time era, and nothing more.The sign post’s will be extremely strong in those days.

 

[jasoncran]

My Reply:
This is not a delimma,.....First of all,..As I pointed out earlier,..The Lord returns a married man.Luke 12;36and returns with His Bride.Jude 1;14
So it is the Bride and the trib saints that help rule and reign with the Lord.

In verse 3,..if you will take notice,..a rapture is never mentioned,..only a resurrection occurs,..and well after the fact that Armageddon is over.(Think about it)

If there were a rapture at the end of Daniels 70th week,..there would not be a need for the Sheep and Goat Judgement.
And again,.....if there were a rapture of "all" the Dead and alive in Christ Jesus,..there would be no mortal to repopulate the millennium.

Only Believers will populate the millennium,...but these survivors will procreate,..and these new people will not be forced to accept Jesus into their heart,..in those days ...man is still given free will.,..and of course,..we see what happens at the end of the millennium.

uh no.

heres a description on the millenium .

isiah 65.

sinners that live to a hundred

17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

hmm sounds like sinners will be around there too. the final battle in revalation before the millenium doesnt destroy all of men.why would the saved need to eat of the tree of life for the healing of nations?

and again so God changes his mind in the millenium where saints that knew god and all the devil is can just walk away?yet in the grace age nope.

odd. that is why i look hard at these things. why would you that are saved now want to serve the devil when you know what he was like when he was allowed with some restraint on the earth to give you heck and cause problems suddenly forget that fact?

 

[jasoncran]

My Reply:
Men were given plenty of signs to know and realize that He was about to call his bride home.
Jasoncran,..I pray that you come to recognize that you are right smack dab in the middle of the general time era of when the rapture would occur....you see,..we the Bride will not know about a Day or an Hour,..but we the Bride will recognize the general time era,...and that my friend is....NOW!

In the days ahead in our lifetime,...the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 prophecy will occur,..and Israel will destroy all her immediate surrounding Arab neighbors, and she will obtain all the land that God had promised Abraham's descendants.
During those days,..a false sense of security will come for Israel, and she will defence her walls and villages,..and then the prophecy of Ezekiel 38-39 will come to pass, and all the outer Islamic nations will be defeated by God Himself,..and then the antichrist will step forward.
But,...what you need to understand/recognize,...is that the Lord will rapture His Bride sometime between the Psalms 83 war and the Ezekiel 38-39 invasion, and it's possible that it may take several months for the false sense of security to develop as an established fact.
This Ezekiel 38-39 invasion occurrs at an unknown day or hour, and so too does the rapture occurrs at an unknown day or hour.
Ezekiel 38;18-20 begins the Day of the Lord.
It is believed by many that Ezekiel 38 will occur just slightly prior to Daniels 70th week.
The ancient Jewish wedding is a shadow type of the rapture and it too indicates that the Bride is in heaven only 7 years before returning with the Lord.
The Lord is described as returning as it was during the Days of Noah,...for they were marrying and giving in marriage,...this is the Lord describing a normal life setting,..which is not a description provided in Revelation 16,...which is all duck and cover.
,..the Lord even went one step further in making sure that one got the picture that He intended by stating that two women would be grinding at the mill,…one taken, the other left behind,..the point is they were both doing something in a normal setting,..they were working.
This picture presented is backed up by two more pictures as to a recognizable setting in a time of peace, in which I believe will be a false peace.
One other being 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5.
1 Thessalonians 4;16-17..the rapture of the Bride,..and that 1 Thessalonians 5 they will say peace and safety and sudden destruction will come upon …â€THEMâ€â€¦.and …â€THEY†shall not escape………I do not see anything there that states …â€US†or “BRIDEâ€

And last but not least,..Ezekiel 38;11-14…It was when Israel believed that she was dwelling in peace and safety,..that sudden destruction prevailed.
I believe that the rapture will occur just moments before Ezekiel 38,..and I believe that Ezekiel 38;18-20 are the beginning of the wrath of God.
This invasion you will see in Joel chapter 2(Consider the History of Israel before and after her birth, and Russia’s geographical description.
I believe that the coming war of Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 will result in a false peace,that is a requirement for Ezekiel 38.I do not know how long it will take for this false peace to take effect, and when in that general time that He will take us home,…only that we will understand the general time era, and nothing more.The sign post’s will be extremely strong in those days.

i monitor what isreal does. but uh for ezekiel 38 to come to pass the jews must know their tribes!i am jewish and i dont know the tribe i come from only the jews with the last name cohen or cohn are considered levites.

btw you assume much. i do buy that isreal will face some trials. and accept the antichrist.

wow calling me unsaved over eschatological differences. hmm, i guess all those sainst such as luther. knox, calvin who didnt know about the pret-trib doctrine wont be in heaven.

again. you cant tell me that he comes twice, he came three times per your view.
first to save men.then to rapture the saints then to judge the earth.

that makes it three.