Five Primary Doctrines

[Tallen]

So by these standards someone like Paul could not be chosen by the church today to be a leader because of his past behaviors?

HUH!?! How many times was he married? On what point was he failing when he wrote this epistle?

He is putting forth the moral character of those that we should place in the pastoral role of the local assembly. What we are looking at is his words D, not mine. This is his qualifications for the role of elder. If someone is going to change his word to fit the theology they believe, then they are essentially changing the meaning of the Apostle. We must let his meaning determine our faith. That is one of the basic understandings of writing, the writer gets to define the meaning of what he/she wrote.

And the woman at the well, the church would correct in saying that she was still married to her first husband in God's eyes and the rest were not husbands, she was just shacking up with the other 4 husbands?

Why are you straw manning the discussion? I didn't say anything even close to that nor did the Apostle. What I pointed out was how Messiah Himself, he said what he did not me, and He reckoned her to have had five husbands and one man that wasn't. What ever the circumstances of those marriages we have no idea except that she wasn't with any of those husbands. Did Yahshua tell her she had "five husbands"? Was she a one husband woman? Did the Apostle say "a one woman man"? To take that and run into areas of absurdity and obtuse thinking that aren't intended is nothing more than denigrating what was said.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

This is his qualifications for the role of elder. If someone is going to change his word to fit the theology they believe, then they are essentially changing the meaning of the Apostle

I agree, what are GOD's qualification? How does GOD see this new creature in Christ?

Does GOD look at and see the sins and unrighteous standing before they accepted the Savior? Or does HE declare that person righteous in Christ? And they go forward from there.

I don't see how out of all the qualifications listed in Titus we can pull out One and make that One any different than the others. In Christ, the past is the past, GOD said so.

Technically, by the strictest interpretation Paul still wouldn't qualify because he wasn't the husband of any wife.

So I've had my say and I done.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Thayer's Greek is good, It brings some things out the others don't

You may want to think twice about Thayer for more reasons than what I am about to show you.

From Wikipedia:

Rather unfortunately, Thayer's Lexicon became obsolete quickly as Gustav Adolf Deissmann's work with the Egyptian papyri was soon to revolutionize New Testament and Koine Greek Lexicography with the publication of his Bible Studies: Contributions Chiefly from Papyri and Inscriptions to the History of the Language, the Literature, and the Religion of Hellenistic Judaism and Primitive Christianity, published in 1901 (2nd edition 1909) and also Light from the Ancient East: the New Testament Illustrated by Recently Discovered Texts of the Graeco-Roman World London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1910. These books and similar ones that followed helped confirm and sometimes correct inadequate definitions of many words in the Greek New Testament. With this new and valuable information for studying the Greek of the New Testament, Thayer's Lexicon became a victim of history, being published less than a decade before this papyri revolution. [2]
In February 1891 Thayer published a lecture in which he expressed disagreement with the position of Biblical inerrancy, asserting that his own acceptance of various errors of history and science in the Bible did not materially detract from his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Henry_Thayer

 

[Tallen]

So I've had my say and I done.

Me to, blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

You may want to think twice about Thayer for more reasons than what I am about to show you.

Brother, you posted Thayers Word for God. That is not strongs, but thayer just used the strong numbering system. You posted directly from the thayer Greek. It's a methodist book, with the book of discipline embedded in it. Now you tell me it might not be good?

I normally look at Strongs. I also have thayer and the NASC right in my E-sword. So, I glance at all of them real quick. James Strong did not believe in Trinity but saw that the Word for God was generic. He was also called a heretic by some. However, He has his roots also in the Methodist Church. I don't personally Believe Joseph Henry was a bad guy, Just a Methodist guy.

Anyone up to discussing some of these points that Yodas_Prodigy had brought out? Force of faith, name it and claim it. Whatever the doctrine stuff?

Blessings..

Mike.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

You may want to think twice about Thayer for more reasons than what I am about to show you.

Brother, you posted Thayers Word for God. That is not strongs, but thayer just used the strong numbering system. You posted directly from the thayer Greek. It's a methodist book, with the book of discipline embedded in it. Now you tell me it might not be good?

I normally look at Strongs. I also have thayer and the NASC right in my E-sword. So, I glance at all of them real quick. James Strong did not believe in Trinity but saw that the Word for God was generic. He was also called a heretic by some. However, He has his roots also in the Methodist Church. I don't personally Believe Joseph Henry was a bad guy, Just a Methodist guy.

Anyone up to discussing some of these points that Yodas_Prodigy had brought out? Force of faith, name it and claim it. Whatever the doctrine stuff?

Blessings..

Mike.

. Even if it is Thayer, it supports my position.... I do see where the Thayer idea comes.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Anyone up to discussing some of these points that Yodas_Prodigy had brought out? Force of faith, name it and claim it. Whatever the doctrine stuff?

Blessings..

Mike.

I really have no interest in talking about those subjects. I pretty much nailed what I wanted. The JDS/B.A.J doctrine and the so-called little God doctrine.

Jesus did not become a sinner and was dragged in to Hell by Satan. Jesus did not have to be born again. And humans are not Gods. As Paul said, "We are humans like you."

 

[Brother Mike]

Jesus did not become a sinner and was dragged in to Hell by Satan. Jesus did not have to be born again. And humans are not Gods. As Paul said, "We are humans like you."

What happened to Jesus? I mean I can prove Humans are theos, just like Satan by definition. But Jesus was dragged to hell? When?

14 years of WOF, Baptist, (Some Methodist, thank you gma) I have never heard that Satan dragged Jesus to Hell. I think one could prove he Went to Hell, and preached to the spirits and got his people out of Hell as it is Written you will not leave my soul in Hell. Satan though dragging the Lord? I think that would be a great stretch of imagination.


As for what Paul did say because there was a doctrine about humans and gods.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

How many gods in heaven? Who's heaven? Who's children are we? Paul already addressed this. There are only two. Being made in the image of something is the same class of something. Hence Jesus called us theos. You need to fix your definitions a bit, or just stick with thayer. James strong saw the same exact thing that god is a generic title of a spirit or immortal being. He also did not believe in Trinity, but said god has to be defined in the title. If you like thayers, then fine, your not a god or offspring of god. Believe what you want.

Jas_3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

However.................. did you make up this doctrine about Jesus being dragged into Hell by Satan? I have yet heard this doctrine and am interested in it.

Blessings...

Mike.

 

[Sparkey]

Jesus did not become a sinner and was dragged in to Hell by Satan.

I can not speak for Yodas_Prodigy, but he may have meant, "Jesus did not become a sinner -and- Jesus was not dragged into Hell. Jesus did not have to be born again."

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Jesus did not become a sinner and was dragged in to Hell by Satan.

I can not speak for Yodas_Prodigy, but he may have meant, "Jesus did not become a sinner -and- Jesus was not dragged into Hell. Jesus did not have to be born again."

You are correct. Jesus was not dragged in to Hell by Satan. That was my intention.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Jesus did not become a sinner and was dragged in to Hell by Satan. Jesus did not have to be born again. And humans are not Gods. As Paul said, "We are humans like you."

What happened to Jesus? I mean I can prove Humans are theos, just like Satan by definition. But Jesus was dragged to hell? When?

14 years of WOF, Baptist, (Some Methodist, thank you gma) I have never heard that Satan dragged Jesus to Hell. I think one could prove he Went to Hell, and preached to the spirits and got his people out of Hell as it is Written you will not leave my soul in Hell. Satan though dragging the Lord? I think that would be a great stretch of imagination.


As for what Paul did say because there was a doctrine about humans and gods.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

How many gods in heaven? Who's heaven? Who's children are we? Paul already addressed this. There are only two. Being made in the image of something is the same class of something. Hence Jesus called us theos. You need to fix your definitions a bit, or just stick with thayer. James strong saw the same exact thing that god is a generic title of a spirit or immortal being. He also did not believe in Trinity, but said god has to be defined in the title. If you like thayers, then fine, your not a god or offspring of god. Believe what you want.

Jas_3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

However.................. did you make up this doctrine about Jesus being dragged into Hell by Satan? I have yet heard this doctrine and am interested in it.

Blessings...

Mike.

I am so glad that you do not believe that Jesus was dragged in to Hell and tortured. At least you deny one of the heretical doctrines espoused by the W O F Five pointers.

Still working on that other one.

 

[Brother Mike]

I am so glad that you do not believe that Jesus was dragged in to Hell and tortured. At least you deny one of the heretical doctrines espoused by the W O F Five pointers.

Still working on that other one.

Sorry, Unless you quote me I might miss the posting. I was not trying to ignore you. I fully believe at best you could make a case for Jesus going to hell and being resurrected out of hell a symbol that we don't have to go and there is a resurrection. You can make a case that He preached in Hell to the spirits in Hell and kicked the devils butt making a open show of all demonic power.
Jesus was Begotten of God in the flesh, born of the Word of incorruptible seed. The holy Spirit with Jesus in the womb. That would mean he came to earth already "Born again" for the sake of a better word, not getting his redemption while visiting Hell.

I think what is disturbing to me is that you say this is a WOF Doctrine. I have not heard everything of course anymore more than someone has listened to every single Baptist Pastor on the planet but I have not heard anything like this in 14 or so years following the WOF. I think I have been diligent, but that does not mean I missed some things.

My understanding was that Jesus said the devil had no place in him. That would make it hard for the devil to drag Jesus kicking and screaming off to Hell. Jesus became sin, He did not sin, but was made sin. So any going to Hell would have been the voluntary will of the Father, not Jesus deserving or surrendering to Mr. Devil.
I also don't have any scripture that Jesus was tortured in Hell. I am sure it was not pleasant and He yelled out Father why have you forsaken me? But something being not being pleasant does not mean tortured. I would need a scripture to back that up. I believe he went down and preached to those that have waited and expected him to come. I don't think there were any torture sessions.

As for the "Little gods" thing

You can just drop that for now if you like. I am not sure what was taught on that. We are God's offspring and hence like him in image, in god class, but we are not HIM we are created like him. Any term to denote humans as gods would only be what the Bible defined for us. We are little gods because we are little children, or children of God.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

The Word Godhead came around the time our buddy Joseph Henry for the sake of clarification for the Book of Discipline decided to give James Strongs Godhede (Original Europe Word) another definition.

Joseph Henry decided that He needed to Help it out some to make it more clear and added to the original Greek Word. God head just means like god, or god like. Since then the term is found in all the newer versions of the trinity doctrine but not in the Older ones. Thank you Joseph Henry!!!

Thayer Definition: Godhead
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities. Actual Greek............

Book of Discipline:
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity

We are God's Offspring Like God so we ought not to think of being divine, god like, as things made of silver and Gold.

Strangely the Message bible gets it more correct. How they manged it? I don't know.

Act 17:29 Well, if we are the God-created, it doesn't make a lot of sense to think we could hire a sculptor to chisel a god out of stone for us, does it?

If you want to work on those other points and see what I have personally been taught, just post them.

Blessings.

Mike.