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Flesh or sinful nature

if you still use the law of sin and death to accuse others, then you are still bound to the law of sin and death.
No, you simply do not have accurate understanding.
It's okay to call people out about their sin. Jesus is not telling us to do the devil's work, and be bound to the law of sin and death when he says this:

"15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault..." (Matthew 18:15 NASB)

In fact, the point of doing this is so the brother can be gained, not lost:

"...if he listens to you, you have won your brother." (Matthew 18:15 NASB)

That's hardly the devil's work. Nor is it being bound to the law of sin and death.
 
Well, actually it does:

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:2,4 NASB)
-

Anyone and everyone who believes they can Lose Their Salvation, and worries about this, and tries to prove it..... has "fallen from Grace" and has become a devout legalist.
This is because to "fall from Grace", means....that you ONCE understood and believed that you were saved by "Grace through Faith", and were born again, but then LATER you decided that WORKS and LIFESTYLE saves you, and that is "self righteousness", or.....trying to make yourself righteous by your own self effort..
So, at that point, you "fell from Grace", and turned your back on the Blood Atonement, and landed on WORKS.
= "fallen from Grace".
Paul in Galatians says that this type of "works" for salvation (deceived) person, (who lives in James, Hebrews, and Matthew), .... is "bewitched" and "in the flesh".
And he's not kidding.
 
Can one live grace through faith, and still operate within the courts of heaven?

Do me a favor. Think about it for awhile before you answer, lol.
 
-

Anyone and everyone who believes they can Lose Their Salvation, and worries about this, and tries to prove it..... has "fallen from Grace" and has become a devout legalist.
This is because to "fall from Grace", means....that you ONCE understood and believed that you were saved by "Grace through Faith", and were born again, but then LATER you decided that WORKS and LIFESTYLE saves you, and that is "self righteousness", or.....trying to make yourself righteous by your own self effort..
So, at that point, you "fell from Grace", and turned your back on the Blood Atonement, and landed on WORKS.
= "fallen from Grace".
Paul in Galatians says that this type of "works" for salvation (deceived) person, (who lives in James, Hebrews, and Matthew), .... is "bewitched" and "in the flesh".
And he's not kidding.
Help me out here.
Thinking that it is necessary to believe in Christ to be justified is works legalism how? :confused
 
Help me out here.
Thinking that it is necessary to believe in Christ to be justified is works legalism how? :confused

Ok,

A person is saved by the blood atonement, by hearing the Gospel and believing it, and God saves them.
God saves them.....they dont save themselves....
Is this completed or not?
True?
If not is your answer, or if your answer is....."yes, but then i have to DO".....then you have "fallen from grace", because you are tying to add something YOU DO< to keep yourself saved, instead of trusting what God Thru CHRIST ALREADY PROVIDED that already saved you once you were saved.

see it?
 
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Why do you care that He sees you? When you are born again you become a new creature in Christ. Why is it important that the Father sees the sinful pile of dust that you are?
That's what I'm asking. Does he see the sinful pile of dust or a new nature that is not sinful
 
That's what I'm asking. Does he see the sinful pile of dust or a new nature that is not sinful

God sees you just as sinless as Jesus Christ himself from the instant you are born again, till the second you die and meet Him.
That is your "eternal status".
Wonderful, isn't it?
"Amazing Grace".
"faith is counted as righteousness".
The ungodly have become as sinless as God.
THIS, is the wonder of the blood atonement once applied once and forever.
 
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God sees you just as sinless as Jesus Christ himself from the instant you are born again, till the second you die and meet Him.
That is your "eternal status".
Wonderful, isn't it?
"Amazing Grace".
How sweet that sound.
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now I'm found.
Was blind but now I see.
 
We all hold to the same point. No one escapes God when it comes to judgment.

And that also applies in the present life, as Hebrews 12:25 and many other scriptures show us, such as "God is NOT mocked. Whatever a man sows, that shall he reap."

Many think that because someone in this present life can "change their mind" it means freewill. It actually means that God Elects to AGAIN allow them to be blinded, and nothing more than that. Romans 11:8 is an example of this as it pertains to unbelieving Israel. Mark 4:15, and 2 Tim. 2:26 also show that it is Satan's will to "take" the will of man AGAIN under his influences. This is an always present possibility for all of us. God can and does not only allow that to happen, but chooses to allow the adversity of unbelief that comes upon ex believers from Satan.



Romans 11:25-32 shows otherwise, as do many other scriptures that form the basis of this understanding. The understanding didn't show up out of thin air apart from scriptural presentations.
1. Nothing happens if God does not will it. This does not mean we don't have free will.

2. 2 Peter 2:20-22

W
 
1. Nothing happens if God does not will it. This does not mean we don't have free will.

I find those kinds of claims well entrenched in circular illogic. The illogic that really makes me laugh is that Jesus never leaves us, but we can leave Him. Kind of in the same vein as the above. No offense to you personally. I've heard a lot of them over the years. They get tossed around by popular preachers and they seem to stick and recirculate in whatever camps they spring from.
 
That's what I'm asking. Does he see the sinful pile of dust or a new nature that is not sinful
I guess you didn't like my answer, and that of others, and are still searching.
The answer is easy.
 
I find those kinds of claims well entrenched in circular illogic. The illogic that really makes me laugh is that Jesus never leaves us, but we can leave Him. Kind of in the same vein as the above. No offense to you personally. I've heard a lot of them over the years. They get tossed around by popular preachers and they seem to stick and recirculate in whatever camps they spring from.
It's okay Smaller.
You have your concept. One I've never heard of in 40 years, if I might say so. You're very careful in how you present it, but it's strange nonetheless.

Funny, because in a way you're right and I'd have to agree with you. But you take the idea a bit too far and I won't go beyond saying this.

If my logic makes you laugh, I'm sorry. But I'll stick to it. Jesus is knocking on that door. He ain't bashing that door down. If He's to come in, I've gotta open that there door. Some of the action has to be mine. He's a knockin', I have to be answerin'.

So now He's in. Has He locked that door behind Him? Has He taken away my free will? The same free will that got that door open in the first place.

No sir. I think I still have it. If God wants my love, my love has to be freely given. If it's freely given, I MUST be allowed to leave whenever I want to. That's love Smaller. It can't be taken by force. Are you married? Does your wife stay with you willingly or are you forcing her to stay? If you're forcing her - does that make you feel she loves you?

I love the Lounge. No scripture. Just a lot of common sense. It's good to understand God using common sense.

It's so logical.

W
 
It's okay Smaller.
You have your concept. One I've never heard of in 40 years, if I might say so. You're very careful in how you present it, but it's strange nonetheless.

It only seems that way to some because they are not used to having to actually see their own sins from the eyes of scripture and tend to run away from seeing themselves "honestly."
Funny, because in a way you're right and I'd have to agree with you. But you take the idea a bit too far and I won't go beyond saying this.

I have my doubts that you've grasped the subject matter intricately and personally. Most can't. And there are scriptural reasons they can't. See Romans 11:8 for an example of what happens to the majority. I don't "blame" and "accuse" any person who can't hear/see in any case as scripture doesn't allow that either. 2 Cor. 5:19.

As to freewill? Nah. Nobody comes even remotely close to usurping Gods Own Control over all of His creation. It's kind of a ridiculous premise from the git go. It's like saying a baby can defeat a silver back gorilla in a fight.

I don't know why believers have a problem with A Perfect God being in full control of all things and claim rather their own freewill. Particularly when it is easily proven from the scriptures they can't see or hear to start with. I try to keep that in mind when I witness. The wax of sin in people's ears is pretty hard and thick.

There are a couple of scriptural measuring sticks I employ when trying to gauge how well believers really think they hear Gods Words. After many years of employing this tool it's a petty joke to me at this point. But here it is:

How many believers have read this scripture and personally rejected hearing it as applicable to themselves (on whatever [contrived] basis)?

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Yet every honest believer knows full well they themselves commit iniquity.

Go figure.
 
-

Anyone and everyone who believes they can Lose Their Salvation, and worries about this, and tries to prove it..... has "fallen from Grace" and has become a devout legalist.
This is because to "fall from Grace", means....that you ONCE understood and believed that you were saved by "Grace through Faith", and were born again, but then LATER you decided that WORKS and LIFESTYLE saves you, and that is "self righteousness", or.....trying to make yourself righteous by your own self effort..
So, at that point, you "fell from Grace", and turned your back on the Blood Atonement, and landed on WORKS.
= "fallen from Grace".
Paul in Galatians says that this type of "works" for salvation (deceived) person, (who lives in James, Hebrews, and Matthew), .... is "bewitched" and "in the flesh".
And he's not kidding.
Kidron
What makes you think we sit around worrying about losing our salvation? Jesus works it out for us.
So, are you saying that if one DOES worry about it, the worrying alone let's jone lose his salvation?

Wow. That would make me worry even more! Are you, like, here specifically to make people worry??

So worrying is a work?
This is too much. It goes beyond even Calvinism.

I'm thinking of going to speak to the Pope about removing James, Hebrews and Mathew from the bible. Who would I have to contact in the Protestant world? I hope you don't say the Holy Spirit.

Yes. I agree. Those books are troublesome. They say we actually have to DO something. Like Jesus used to say.

Could you please site some scripture that says that Paul, in the book of Galatians, believes the people in James, Hebrews and Mathew are bewitched for doing works.

Thanks.

Wondering
 
It only seems that way to some because they are not used to having to actually see their own sins from the eyes of scripture and tend to run away from seeing themselves "honestly."


I have my doubts that you've grasped the subject matter intricately and personally. Most can't. And there are scriptural reasons they can't. See Romans 11:8 for an example of what happens to the majority. I don't "blame" and "accuse" any person who can't hear/see in any case as scripture doesn't allow that either. 2 Cor. 5:19.

As to freewill? Nah. Nobody comes even remotely close to usurping Gods Own Control over all of His creation. It's kind of a ridiculous premise from the git go. It's like saying a baby can defeat a silver back gorilla in a fight.

I don't know why believers have a problem with A Perfect God being in full control of all things and claim rather their own freewill. Particularly when it is easily proven from the scriptures they can't see or hear to start with. I try to keep that in mind when I witness. The wax of sin in people's ears is pretty hard and thick.

There are a couple of scriptural measuring sticks I employ when trying to gauge how well believers really think they hear Gods Words. After many years of employing this tool it's a petty joke to me at this point. But here it is:

How many believers have read this scripture and personally rejected hearing it as applicable to themselves (on whatever [contrived] basis)?

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Yet every honest believer knows full well they themselves commit iniquity.

Go figure.
I've grasped the concept really well. I've said before that you're not the only one to understand this.

But here's what you do. You don't really answer me. You just go on about what YOU believe.
Back in post no. 117 I asked you to please explain what you understand Hebrews 12:25 to be saying.
You posted it again in no. 120 but didn't really explain it.

Could we do one scripture at a time? What does Hebrews 12:25 mean to you?

W
 
Kidron
What makes you think we sit around worrying about losing our salvation? Jesus works it out for us.
So, are you saying that if one DOES worry about it, the worrying alone let's jone lose his salvation?

Wow. That would make me worry even more! Are you, like, here specifically to make people worry??

So worrying is a work?
This is too much. It goes beyond even Calvinism.

I'm thinking of going to speak to the Pope about removing James, Hebrews and Mathew from the bible. Who would I have to contact in the Protestant world? I hope you don't say the Holy Spirit.

Yes. I agree. Those books are troublesome. They say we actually have to DO something. Like Jesus used to say.

Could you please site some scripture that says that Paul, in the book of Galatians, believes the people in James, Hebrews and Mathew are bewitched for doing works.

Thanks.

Wondering
The truth is Wondering there are an awful lot of people who do worry about losing their salvation and then try to take matters into their own hands and work for their salvation, rather than work because of their salvation. Worrying is not the work the results of it are.
 
The truth is Wondering there are an awful lot of people who do worry about losing their salvation and then try to take matters into their own hands and work for their salvation, rather than work because of their salvation. Worrying is not the work the results of it are.
What exactly does this mean?
We are saved by faith through grace. Okay.
Now what? Do I just sit around all day thanking God for my faith? Do I continue my life the way it was before? Do I do nothing for the kingdom? Am I not to help my fellow man? Do I not try to "be perfect" like my father in heaven is perfect? Is everything that Jesus said just nonsense?

Someone here does not like certain books in the bible because they teach "works". Think of what this means! Is this what we've come to? Speak about the secular world invading the church! Maybe in 20 years some books WILL be removed. Maybe it'll be easier on Christians. Maybe it'll attract more people to the Church and the church. This is how we got to abortion and SS marriage. A thought. A small action. More action...

I'm not even arguing against Calvinism. The other poster is presenting a whole new aspect, or idea, and I think it's a very dangerous one.

W
 
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