Flesh or sinful nature

[Jethro Bodine]

Falling from grace means trusting in something other than the Cross.

Trusting in something else other than the cross for justification is what it means to fall from grace--When you turn to something else for justification you fall from God's grace in Christ for justification. You lose the effect of Christ in justification. That is what Paul is telling the saved Galatians.

Must Believers do not tithe and fall under this.

This has nothing to do with justification....unless you are tithing in order to be justified. Which, obviously, you are saying most in the church do not do (tithe). So believers not tithing has nothing to do with what Paul is talking about to the Galatians. If you tithe, or do any other work of the law, in order to be justified, instead of relying on Christ for justification, you will lose the grace of justification in Christ.

The problem in the church is not that most are trying to be justified by what they are doing. The problem is most in the church are doing nothing, and taking false comfort in it, not realizing that their lack of works may well mean they have fallen from the faith that justifies.

 

[GodsGrace]

Living in the law of sin and death has only one meaning. To be doing that means you are relying on the righteousness of law to be justified. And Galatians shows us that if, as you say, most Christians are relying on works of the law for justification then most Christians will lose the justification they had. Rewards will be the least of their concern.

This is correct.
I wish iLOVE would rethink his position.
Living under the Law is death.
Living under the Law of sin and death and condemnation means that one is NOT saved!
If one is condemned, how could one be saved?

It's a contradiction in terms.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Falling from grace means trusting in something other than the Cross. Must Believers do not tithe and fall under this. However they are still justified with chaos in their life.

You can tithe and NOT be under grace.
You cannot tithe and BE under grace.

Only in Christianity can there be such a contradiction!

If you are tithing under the Law, it is a work that is of no fruition. God doesn't need your money. People on earth do. You are helping those people (which is good) but it adds nothing to your sanctification.

If you are tithing under grace, it helps the people on this earth who are in need, AND it adds to the sanctifying process - which, as you correctly said, is ongoing.

W

 

[iLOVE]

This is correct.
I wish iLOVE would rethink his position.
Living under the Law is death.
Living under the Law of sin and death and condemnation means that one is NOT saved!
If one is condemned, how could one be saved?

It's a contradiction in terms.

W

Most Christians are trying to live for God by the means of willpower, which, in effect is the flesh. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. The Holy Spirit is the only Person who can make the sin nature ineffective by maintaining faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross.

When a Christian faith is not maintained exclusively in Christ and the Cross they are in the "Law of sin and death." In other words, "walking in the flesh." However, this doesn't un-save a Christian who has been saved by faith alone, through Christ alone, by Grace alone. Our salvation is a legal work. A Believer must understand justification by faith. The Believer must understand sanctification by Grace through faith, in what Christ did at Calvary. No Believer graduates from the Cross. Our victory is in Christ. The Believer must allow the Holy Spirit accomplish only what He alone can do.

 

[iLOVE]

This has nothing to do with justification

This is correct. However not tithing is operating in the law of sin and death...walking in the flesh. Romans 8:7 NIV

God demands first place in our time, talent, and treasure. Revelation 2:4

Seek ye first...

 

[GodsGrace]

Most Christians are trying to live for God by the means of willpower, which, in effect is the flesh. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. The Holy Spirit is the only Person who can make the sin nature ineffective by maintaining faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross.

When a Christian faith is not maintained exclusively in Christ and the Cross they are in the "Law of sin and death." In other words, "walking in the flesh." However, this doesn't un-save a Christian who has been saved by faith alone, through Christ alone, by Grace alone. Our salvation is a legal work. A Believer must understand justification by faith. The Believer must understand sanctification by Grace through faith, in what Christ did at Calvary. No Believer graduates from the Cross. Our victory is in Christ. The Believer must allow the Holy Spirit accomplish only what He alone can do.

Okay. I agree with all of the above.
But you take it too far.
Are you saying, quite simply, that a person cannot lose their salvation? Ever. No matter what they do? Or what they believe?

 

[iLOVE]

Okay. I agree with all of the above.
But you take it too far.
Are you saying, quite simply, that a person cannot lose their salvation? Ever. No matter what they do? Or what they believe?

If a Believer is in Christ, no, they can't lose their salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

If a Believer is in Christ, no, they can't lose their salvation.

Tricky!
Could a believer get OUT of Christ?

 

[Mike S]

Tricky!
Could a believer get OUT of Christ?

I believe that a saved man can lose is salvation if he falls away from faith. Hebrews 6:4-6.

The critical answer I usually get for this goes something like "That just proves he wasn't really saved."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However not tithing is operating in the law of sin and death...walking in the flesh. Romans 8:7 NIV

Just curious, are we presently in the two years out of the three where we consume our own tithe, or are we in the third year when it is given to the orphan, widow, and Levite (those in ministry)?

 

[iLOVE]

Tricky!
Could a believer get OUT of Christ?

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV means you can't sin your salvation away, however you can renounce it. You can reject your faith. God had made it so difficult to do unless you meet the five qualifications mentioned in this scripture as a mature Christian and ignorance does not count. So it is possible but God has made it extremely difficult.

The Lord’s Grace to Paul

"12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 1:12-14 Jesus Grace tops sin. All Christians are Holy, sanctified, and righteous by what Jesus did, not by what we do. Being Holy, sanctified, and righteous is not based on your behavior. If you believe in Jesus and believe what the blood has done you are Holy, sanctified, righteous, and redeemed. Your spirit has been sealed with Jesus so the good can't get out, and the bad can't get in. Hebrews 10:10 says, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." The question is do you believe it?

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, = Unbelief, you do not believe Jesus is the finial sacrifice for your sins. Which means there are no more sacrifices.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However not tithing is operating in the law of sin and death...walking in the flesh. Romans 8:7 NIV

No, operating in the law of sin and death has only one meaning. It means to be keeping the law in order to be justified.

And if anyone is walking in the flesh, they are not saved. Read it carefully:

"9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. " (Romans 8:9 NASB bold mine)

See being int the flesh does not simply mean you are obeying the lusts of the flesh. It means you do not have the Spirit of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The critical answer I usually get for this goes something like "That just proves he wasn't really saved."

Which means none of us can know for sure if we are 'really' saved or not. For tomorrow may hold the very failure of faith that will prove we were never 'really' saved all along.

And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of security. Go figure.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that a saved man can lose is salvation if he falls away from faith. Hebrews 6:4-6.

The critical answer I usually get for this goes something like "That just proves he wasn't really saved."

Of course.
Blame it on the poor guy!
Why take any responsibility for your false doctrine...
It's too much.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Just curious, are we presently in the two years out of the three where we consume our own tithe, or are we in the third year when it is given to the orphan, widow, and Levite (those in ministry)?

LOL!
Very good.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV means you can't sin your salvation away, however you can renounce it. You can reject your faith. God had made it so difficult to do unless you meet the five qualifications mentioned in this scripture as a mature Christian and ignorance does not count. So it is possible but God has made it extremely difficult.

The Lord’s Grace to Paul

"12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 1:12-14 Jesus Grace tops sin. All Christians are Holy, sanctified, and righteous by what Jesus did, not by what we do. Being Holy, sanctified, and righteous is not based on your behavior. If you believe in Jesus and believe what the blood has done you are Holy, sanctified, righteous, and redeemed. Your spirit has been sealed with Jesus so the good can't get out, and the bad can't get in. Hebrews 10:10 says, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." The question is do you believe it?

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, = Unbelief, you do not believe Jesus is the finial sacrifice for your sins. Which means there are no more sacrifices.

You see iLOVE, I KNEW you had the right answer. We watch the same TV program if you remember.
SO, YES, all of the above is correct.

Be careful how you word your belief. You sounded like a OSAS person before when, in reality, you know that t IS possible to lose your salvation for the very reason you state above: The abandonment of your faith in the Christ.

I agree that it's difficult. See John 6:68

But that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Tricky!
Could a believer get OUT of Christ?

No they can not. Hebrews is very clear that once called by God, His people do not and can not escape. When they tried to escape, they were destroyed in judgments.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[ezrider]

No, operating in the law of sin and death has only one meaning. It means to be keeping the law in order to be justified.

You have made this statement a few times, but I must disagree. You are looking at operating in the law of sin and death as a means to justification only, but there is another operation of the law of sin and death that is more subtle in its deception, and might be even more so ensnaring. For by the law of sin and death we find the authority and accuse others of sins, sins defined by the law of sin and death; The accuser, the role of the devil, Moses.

Jesus said judge not, or you shall be judge. For in the manner you judge others, so shall you be judge. It doesn't matter if you don't use the law to justify yourself, if you still use the law of sin and death to accuse others, then you are still bound to the law of sin and death.

 

[GodsGrace]

No they can not. Hebrews is very clear that once called by God, His people do not and can not escape. When they tried to escape, they were destroyed in judgments.

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

No Smaller
Scripture is not very clear since we could both prove our point.
I'll only say that no church believed in eternal security until Calvin. What idiots must all the other theologians from after Jesus' death have been?

Please explain Hebrews 12:25.

I don't understand the connection.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

No Smaller
Scripture is not very clear since we could both prove our point.

We all hold to the same point. No one escapes God when it comes to judgment.

And that also applies in the present life, as Hebrews 12:25 and many other scriptures show us, such as "God is NOT mocked. Whatever a man sows, that shall he reap."

Many think that because someone in this present life can "change their mind" it means freewill. It actually means that God Elects to AGAIN allow them to be blinded, and nothing more than that. Romans 11:8 is an example of this as it pertains to unbelieving Israel. Mark 4:15, and 2 Tim. 2:26 also show that it is Satan's will to "take" the will of man AGAIN under his influences. This is an always present possibility for all of us. God can and does not only allow that to happen, but chooses to allow the adversity of unbelief that comes upon ex believers from Satan.

I'll only say that no church believed in eternal security until Calvin.

Romans 11:25-32 shows otherwise, as do many other scriptures that form the basis of this understanding. The understanding didn't show up out of thin air apart from scriptural presentations.