For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[golfjack]

reply

Bottom line here, does a believer have free will? Think about it?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[AVBunyan]

Obedience is not prideful.

True - in it's essence it is not but can easily become prideful in some - They glory in their obedience which is pride.

I take the below position:

1 Cor 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[destiny]

BTW Destiny - why not take the challenge of my OP which was the purpose of this thread anyway?
So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7

I've never seen you present the above clearly. Maybe you have before you being on my ignore list I've missed it.

At any rate - go for it. I'm all ears.

I'm not going to jump through hoops for you, AV ...i'm not out to impress anyone here. The gospel is simplistic and we are saved by grace given faith in God ...and this, not of ourselves. What are the characteristics of this new creature AV? I will answer that with scripture: "So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" 2 Cor. 5:17

There will be outward signs and inward changes when God saves us.

Simplistic

 

[unred typo]

True - in it's essence it is not but can easily become prideful in some - They glory in their obedience which is pride.

I take the below position:

1 Cor 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If obedience can become prideful, so disobedience can be willful and slothful. When Paul says there is no good thing dwelling in his flesh, he means that within his lustful human physical body there is no love for others, no self sacrificing, no desire to obey, only hunger to be fed, lust to be satisfied, ego to be stroked, wounded pride to be avenged, and no desire to put itself on the cross of Christ in service to God. He is saying that he is not his body, even though he resides in his body. He must put his body in subjection to the will of God, and not fulfill the evil desires of his flesh. The spirit has to be willing to follow Christ, even if the flesh is weak. When the spirit is unwilling, then you have a problem that will effect your eternity if you don’t overcome.

 

[Atonement]

Re: reply

Atonement, I can show you many scriptures about spiritual death. For this debate, I simply asked God to help explain this verse, He witnessed to my spirit through the Holy Spirit the answer. If one really gives careful consideration to Hebrews 6:4-6, and Hebrews 10:26-30, You will see that is possible for one to lose salvation, but extremely difficult to do.



May God bless, Golfjack

I see only one Scripture where it talks about a sin unto death Jack, but I'm willing to hear more about your position.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Atonement, Do you want a discussion about spiritual death in Genral? First, I ask the question, does a believer have free will? I see this as being very important. If a believer has no free will, then I would say it is impossible to lose one's salvation. But, if the believer does have free will, then I would say it is possible to lose one's salvation. Wasn't Paul concerned about Jerwish believers doing that? And this does apply to us As believers because is no respector of persons.




May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Atonement]

Golfjack, you and I are not on the same page here at all and it's obvious, this is not about loosing salvation or free will.. As I have said in my post, that a Christian's life is cut short if they continue to live in sin. You are trying to turn this into a free will and a once saved always saved debate. I'm not going there with you. I'm talking about sin unto death, and you have a whole other theory in reference to the Scripture that was quoted.

 

[Vic C.]

Golfjack, you and I are not on the same page here at all and it's obvious, this is not about loosing salvation or free will.. As I have said in my post, that a Christian's life is cut short if they continue to live in sin. You are trying to turn this into a free will and a once saved always saved debate. I'm not going there with you. I'm talking about sin unto death, and you have a whole other theory in reference to the Scripture that was quoted.

This seems to be the most common of all commentaries. God will simply take the life of someone who is SO immersed in transgression, that is if they have transgressed against other humans and get incarcerated... and even at that, there is no reason for God to still not take them out of this world.

 

[destiny]

Why don't we just break for a free-for-all right now! :smt067 :smt071 :smt065

 

[Atonement]

This seems to be the most common of all commentaries. God will simply take the life of someone who is SO immersed in transgression, that is if they have transgressed against other humans and get incarcerated... and even at that, there is no reason for God to still not take them out of this world.

Exactly

 

[golfjack]

reply

If one doesn't believe in Revelations that Christians sometimes will have, then there is no need for further discussion, but I will give my testimony about the sin unto death.


When I asked Jesus about the unpardonable sin or sin unto death, He pointed out to me Hebrews 10:26-29. Now, let's see what this verse is saying. Verse 26 says, for if we sin wilfuly after that we have recdeived the knowledge of the truth... That sin couldn't just be referring to any sin, for if it just referred to any sin, thenn 1 John 1:9 wouldn't be true. First John 1:9 promises us that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

Therefore, Hebbrews 10:26 is talking about the sin of rejecting Christ. Paul was oriiginally writing to Hebrew Christians in this passage. There is a principle in these versdes for all Christians, of course. But in New Testament days, the Jewish Christians were tempted to go back to Judaism because of the difficulties of following Christ.

Some of them were tempted to go back to their old life of Judaism, but to do that they would have to deny that Christ is the Son of God. Hebrews 10:29 says the unpardonable sin is trudging under foot the Son of God

Having said this, There's no way one could know whether a person has sinned the sin unto death or not unless God showed you by divine revelation. So, as I see this, it is possible to sin the sin until death.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Atonement]

In short the unpardonable sin, is not accepting Christ as Lord.. All other sin shall be forgiven man. I'm in agreement with you there Jack. But which of course does not coincide with the Scripture reference given about sin unto death. Or at least I'm not seeing it here Jack. I'm not disagreeing with you but questioning your position. I want you to understand that ok?

 

[golfjack]

reply

No offense Atonement, but you are believing a Baptist doctrine, which Charles Stanley believes, and you know, this is OK because as I see it, not too many people commit this sin. In fact, I have heard people put in Mental Institutions because they committed this sin. Of course, one''s sins will not be forgiven if they reject Christ, But I believe scripture does explain that a believer can committ this sin.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Atonement]

Thanks Jack I do agree with your last post 100%

 

[Judy]

Here comes Peter cottontail hopping down the bunny trail.........

 

[destiny]

Here comes Peter cottontail hopping down the bunny trail.........

And we would all darn well benefit from taking that to heart and pondering it deeper.

 

[AVBunyan]

Posted this previously somewhere - Sorry it is long - can't modify due to only have one hand available (left hand at that!) but this may answer my own challenge -

What Happens at the Point of Salvation

I mentioned before the reason folks have a hard time with OSAS is that they do not know doctrinally what happens at the point of salvation. So, let’s see what took place – if one can get this settled then, if the Lord is in it, then the OSAS will not become an issue. This a bit long but really not long enough but we can’t cover it all on this forum.

First – God is holy, just, righteous, and pure. God will accept nothing less that this standard if you are to spend eternity with Him.

Second – Your Condition Prior to Salvation Which Keeps You from God

You were born dead in trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

This is because you are born in Adam’s image and inherited his sin nature which was a fallen nature being separated and an enemy of God. Your righteousness is filthy rags and at your best state you are altogether vanity. Let’s get deeper – According to Romans you have no understanding, are not righteous, are no good, and are not seeking God. You are separated from God and blinded to spiritual truth – 1 Cor. 2:14 and II Cor. 4:3. Adam once was body, soul, and spirit – all separate and pure from sin. And now because of Adam’s sin your soul has become stuck to your dying and rotting flesh. You are in a mess.

Now the Problem – God can accept nothing short of perfect righteousness and holiness in order for you to spend eternity with him for without holiness no man can see the Lord and here it is not a practical holiness but a sinless perfection that you must have!!!

Now – how are you going to meet that standard? How are you going to take a nature that is fallen and restore it? How are you going to become perfect, holy, and righteous? How are you going to separate your soul from your rotting flesh and regenerate your dead spirit? Do you realize what a feat this is? Can you do this by:

1. Making a commitment to Christ?
2. Living a good life?
3. Repenting?
4. Praying?

Or whatever you have been taught to do?

The issue here is you are not just trying to live a good life again but…………

You have to become the righteousness of God while being in a sinful body here on earth!

I hate to be like a cold dish rag coming across your face but the bad news is – you cannot accomplish this. It will take a miraculous work by God not you obeying the commandments and living a good life of repentance.

Quick summary:

God is holy – you are unholy
God demands a sin payment for your offence – You cannot pay it
God demands a perfect sacrifice – You can’t be that for your blood is tainted with sin
Therefore – unless God does the word of restoration you will end up in the lake of fire where you were destined from birth.

Third – How can God bring you back without violating His holiness? God knows you can’t accomplish you becoming holy (even though you think you can) so God does the work for you.

1. Christ becomes the sin payment – God is satisfied with what Christ did for He is perfect, just and righteous.
2. God accepts the sin payment because Christ’s blood is not tainted with sin.
3. Christ dies for your sins, is buried, and is raised from the dead – finished.
4. Christ becomes sin for you – He becomes your sin payment for you.

Now – how do you get brought into this plan?

Fourth – Your Salvation

1. You were walking according to the course of this wicked world in sin and darkness not looking for God – Eph. 2:1; Rom. 3.
2. Somewhere you heard the word of God – Rom. 10:17.
3. The word convicted you of your sinfulness – Heb. 4:12
4. God regenerated your dead spirit – Titus. 3:5
5. God separated your soul from your flesh – Col. 2:11-13
6. God put you into the body of Christ and you became bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh – Eph. 5:30
7. God sealed you with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption – Eph. 1:13
8. God forgave you based upon the finished work of Christ – Col. 1:14 and Eph. 1:7
9. God justified you based upon the faith of Jesus Christ not your faith in Christ – Gal. 2:16.
10. God made you righteous based upon Christ – II Cor. 5:17; Rom. 3:22
11. Then God opened your eyes and you believed – II Cor. 4:6.
12. God made you a new creature – II Cor. 5:17

Summary of above:

God has judicially declared you just, holy, and righteous in the person of Jesus Christ – no other way. When God put you in Christ you became righteous for He is righteous.

Now how are you going to accomplish this work without the 12 points I mentioned above?
Come on now – I’m listening – tell me how you can do what was required by God to make your standing and position with him perfect? What are you going to do to satisfy God’s demand for perfect righteousness?

Let’s get down to the nitty gritty here – the purpose for this post.

In order for you to be reconciled unto God those 12 points (plus others) have to be done and they can only be done by God.

So, how are you going to do those 12 points by your own power and if these 12 points were done for you then how are you going to undo them by your own power so you can lose your salvation? I’m listening.

The Plan –

See God’s holiness and then you will see your sinfulness and then and only then you will flee to Christ for there is no other hope.

The saint is made righteous by Christ – God sees the saint as righteous through Christ and Christ alone.

Do you want to be reconciled to God – then get in Christ.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

God bless

 

[Vic C.]

Hey guys, this is interesting. It's Adam Clarke's historical commentary on 1 John 5:16. I like it. :angel:

Verse 16. A sin which is not unto death] This is an extremely difficult passage, and has been variously interpreted. What is the sin not unto death, for which we should ask, and life shall be given to him that commits it? And what is the sin unto death, for which we should not pray? I shall note three of the chief opinions on this subject:- 1. It is supposed that there is here an allusion to a distinction in the Jewish law, where there was htyml hafj chattaah lemithah, "a sin unto death;" and htyml al hafj chattaah lo lemithah, "a sin not unto death;" that is, 1. A sin, or transgression, to which the law had assigned the punishment of death; such as idolatry, incest, blasphemy, breach of the Sabbath, and the like. And 2.

A sin not unto death, i.e. transgressions of ignorance, inadvertence, &c., and such is, in their own nature, appear to be comparatively light and trivial. That such distinctions did exist in the Jewish synagogue both Schoettgen and Carpzovius have proved.

2. By the sin not unto death, for which intercession might be made, and unto death, for which prayer might not be made, we are to understand transgressions of the civil law of a particular place, some of which must be punished with death, according to the statutes, the crime admitting of no pardon: others might be punished with death, but the magistrate had the power of commuting the punishments, i.e. of changing death into banishment, &c., for reasons that might appear to him satisfactory, or at the intercession of powerful friends. To intercede in the former case would be useless, because the law would not relax, therefore they need not pray for it; but intercession in the latter case might be prevalent, therefore they might pray; and if they did not, the person might suffer the punishment of death. This opinion, which has been advanced by Rosenmuller, intimates that men should feel for each other's distresses, and use their influence in behalf of the wretched, nor ever abandon the unfortunate but where the case is utterly hopeless.

3. The sin unto death means a case of transgression, particularly of grievous backsliding from the life and power of godliness, which God determines to punish with temporal death, while at the same time he extends mercy to the penitent soul. The disobedient prophet, 1 Kings xiii. 1-32, is, on this interpretation, a case in point: many others occur in the history of the Church, and of every religious community. The sin not unto death is any sin which God does not choose thus to punish. This view of the subject is that taken by the late Rev. J. Wesley, in a sermon entitled, A Call to Backsliders. - WORKS, vol ii. page 239.

I do not think the passage has any thing to do with what is termed the sin against the Holy Ghost; much less with the popish doctrine of purgatory; nor with sins committed before and after baptism, the former pardonable, the latter unpardonable, according to some of the fathers. Either of the last opinions (viz., 2 and 3) make a good sense; and the first (1) is not unlikely: the apostle may allude to some maxim or custom in the Jewish Church which is not now distinctly known. However, this we know, that any penitent may find mercy through Christ Jesus; for through him every kind of sin may be forgiven to man, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; which I have proved no man can now commit. See the note on Matt. xii. 31, 39.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke1joh5.htm

 

[destiny]

AV ... I will be back to comment on your post above when I get the time. The thing I will be looking at will be the whole context of all New Testament scripture. I will allow it to be the blueprint for what God loves and what He hates; the (whole) counsel of God will paint the picture of how He expects His people to live. Every verse is vital.

 

[cyberjosh]

I believe that statement to be wrong. I believe OSAS and the last thing on my mind is 'what can I get away with today'. I think the only ones that think that are the one that don't believe OSAS. What I mean by that is, the ones that don't believe OSAS are the ones that says that is how we feel. And it is simply not true. If we thought that way we would really not be saved.

I'm sorry but I must say OSAS is not even a Biblical doctrine. Your views on salvation will not change much (and will change for the better) if you embrace the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, akin to Macarthur's "Lordship Salvation", because Perseverance of the Saints is much closer to a Biblical doctrine (though even I have my "hole-poking" areas with it when it assumes all will infallibly persevere & obey - just a bone I have to pick). None-the-less, even though I don't agree with my Pastor on everything, we are great friends and have discussed these salvation issues at length before, and even though he does not believe one can lose their salvation he rejects OSAS, because he knows it is an unbiblical doctrine and instead embraces Perseverance of the Saints. That should tell you something.

God Bless,

~Josh