For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[Solo]

I'm sorry but I must say OSAS is not even a Biblical doctrine. Your views on salvation will not change much (and will change for the better) if you embrace the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, akin to Macarthur's "Lordship Salvation", because Perseverance of the Saints is much closer to a Biblical doctrine (though even I have my "hole-poking" areas with it when it assumes all will infallibly persevere & obey - just a bone I have to pick). None-the-less, even though I don't agree with my Pastor on everything, we are great friends and have discussed these salvation issues at length before, and even though he does not believe one can lose their salvation he rejects OSAS, because he knows it is an unbiblical doctrine and instead embraces Perseverance of the Saints. That should tell you something.

God Bless,

~Josh

So Jesus is a liar?

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:15-21

 

[AVBunyan]

I'm sorry but I must say OSAS is not even a Biblical doctrine. ~Josh

Your view here goes against the greatest evangelists, missionaries, preachers, and writers of the past (1500-1900) the world has ever seen. Men are not my final authority but the above have fruits and were blessed by God throughout history.

Your view, on the other hand (no OSAS), is held by most of modern Christianity (gasp!), faith healers, Rome, PTL, Mormons, JS's, SDA, and the many more apostate groups.

I'll stick with those in the past who made a real difference.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

 

[AVBunyan]

the (whole) counsel of God will paint the picture of how He expects His people to live. Every verse is vital.

My issue at this moment is not how people live but how are sinners justified. Get this settled first and then we can talk about how to live out that justification.

I'm not convinced some of you here have this settled yet. :o

Doctrine determines duty
Position determines practice.

 

[cyberjosh]

So Jesus is a liar?

Solo, come on now. I would expect a more careful reading & attention by someone as yourself. I said the doctrine of OSAS and its accompanying consequences of thought. Persevereance of the Saints believes you cannot loose your salvation either, but it unlike OSAS emphasizes the necessity of perseverance.

So I could turn your own question around on you, to make you consider what I was saying by quoting the following:

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)


~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Your view here goes against the greatest evangelists, missionaries, preachers, and writers of the past (1500-1900) the world has ever seen. Men are not my final authority but the above have fruits and were blessed by God throughout history.

Your view, on the other hand (no OSAS), is held by most of modern Christianity (gasp!), faith healers, Rome, PTL, Mormons, JS's, SDA, and the many more apostate groups.

I'll stick with those in the past who made a real difference.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

I gave my clarification to Solo. As for the "fruits" point, you are correct, but Christians can bear bad fruit which will ultimately only gain them the "30 fold" (rather than 60 or 100 - Matthew 13:23), and can have their works burned, them being saved, "yet so as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:10-15), and also they can behave hypocritically - deserving the likes of a rebuke that Paul gave the Galatians, "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3) and "You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?" (Galatians 5:7) causing Paul to tell them that they had "fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4). That is the one problem with assuming all Christians will act like or look like the ideal Christians, saying "because God will make them persevere" (which is untrue - God will help them persevere, but it requires cooperation): because some "what [they are] doing, [they] do not understand; for [they are] not practicing what [they] would like to do, but [are] doing the very thing [they] hate" (Romans 7:15) while there are others that don't even fight back that hard and consequentely backslide.

Do you deny this?

Sincerely,

~Josh

 

[AVBunyan]

(Galatians 5:7) causing Paul to tell them that they had "fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4).

This famous "lose-it" passage is directed by Paul to those who trying to justify themselves by the law and have fallen from the grace message. These folks are not even saved for they have ignored the message of grace and are still looking to the law for justification.

 

[Solo]

Solo, come on now. I would expect a more careful reading & attention by someone as yourself. I said the doctrine of OSAS and its accompanying consequences of thought. Persevereance of the Saints believes you cannot loose your salvation either, but it unlike OSAS emphasizes the necessity of perseverance.

So I could turn your own question around on you, to make you consider what I was saying by quoting the following:

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)


~Josh

If one believes that the SALVATION that God GIVES to SINNERS can be GIVEN back, then such a one does not understand GOD'S SALVATION!

Also, such a one does not understand the walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh and the ramifications of both. ! Corinthians is plain that a believers works will be divided into works of the flesh and works of the spirit; and those works of the flesh will be burned up, yet the believer will be saved.

• 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Do the sins that you commit day in and day out keep you from being born again? Why or why not?

According to Matthew 24:13, what is one to endure to the end in order to be saved? How is one to endure? Does one who endures until the end still sin? Why or why not?

 

[cyberjosh]

This famous "lose-it" passage is directed by Paul to those who trying to justify themselves by the law and have fallen from the grace message. These folks are not even saved for they have ignored the message of grace and are still looking to the law for justification.

Uh huh, great catch. I wasn't even using that passage as a "lose your salvation" passage, I was showing how the fruits of a genuine Christian can at times be graceless (thus bad fruit which will be burned), thus the beleiver can indeed not always look like an obvious believer. So I would ask you to, kindly, answer my other points. Or do you not believe a Christians can backslide?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

If one believes that the SALVATION that God GIVES to SINNERS can be GIVEN back, then such a one does not understand GOD'S SALVATION!

Also, such a one does not understand the walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh and the ramifications of both. ! Corinthians is plain that a believers works will be divided into works of the flesh and works of the spirit; and those works of the flesh will be burned up, yet the believer will be saved.

I believe, if you look closely, that walking in the Spirit is a mandate, because when one walks after the flesh they backslide and the heart can become hardened (look at my new "backsliding thread" where I relate - in brief - my experience). It becomes a theological necessity of great importance then, when the Bible tells you (as a believer) not to do something, to ask: Why? What are the consequences if I do?. And not to make the pompous and nullifying stance of "Well the true Christian couldn't do that".

Do the sins that you commit day in and day out keep you from being born again? Why or why not?

If being born again was a process, yes. But it is not. So rather if we can receive God's grace in vain, and set it aside ("falling from grace" - no, not using this as falling from salvation proof, but rather as indication of not walking in God's grace as a Christian, which then could lead, I believe, to loosing it if you continue unrepentant in it), then what grace then is there left to save us if we continually run from it? Where is repentance & acquital from sin outside of grace? You do know that saving is a constant action by God (to be consummated in the future), and that it also means "preserving", do you not?

According to Matthew 24:13, what is one to endure to the end in order to be saved? How is one to endure? Does one who endures until the end still sin? Why or why not?

Why does Paul in Ephesians after saying that salvation is a gift of grace, not of ourselves, and that God has created between the Jew and Gentile a new man, abolishing the enmity between them, then proceed to strongly admonish them to diligently preserve the unity of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3), lest (it seems) it deteriorate - causing the grieving of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), and why even after saying that God has already unified them yet still tell them to strive for the unity of the faith (Ephesians 4:13) [implying that the unity could be broken - which is why he warns against fights in the church] and why does he also admonish them to no longer be children (babes in Christ - who are saved none-the-less) who could be suceptable to being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14)? What if a Church never grows to this maturity? Do you believe it is impossible for such people to be decieved? Surely not, for Paul warns constantly for the believer to avoid deception, and to not be caught in the snares of false prophets because it is infact very possible, thus poses a danger to the Christian. The Christian - Paul indicates - can be foolish, thus Paul admonishes them to not be foolish ("So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is" - Ephesians 5:17) and to rather grow in maturity (something we have to do, though by God's power) because "we are to grow up in all apects into Him" (Ephesians 4:15).

Thus we are told to mature, to not be foolish (thus allowing ourselves to be decieved and tossed to and fro - and what would be the consequences of never moving past that?), and to preserve the unity that Christ originally put us in. Thus you see we can allow it to degenerate, thus grieving God, if we are not careful. What do you think the end consequences for a degerating, immature Church will be? Christ will surely remove their lampstand (Revelation 2:5) won't He?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[AVBunyan]

So I would ask you to, kindly, answer my other points. Or do you not believe a Christians can backslide?

Backsliding is an OT term referring to Israel as a nation - so I'm not sure what you mean by backslide.

But I believe a true saint can go through a time where he is not living the life of a Christian because of sin, unbelief, despair, etc. Generally he will turn back by the work of the Spirit. If he dies in that sorrowful state before he returns he is still in Christ.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The saint stays a saint, sealed by the Spirit until the day of redemption - he may be miserable and spiritually worthless in his "backslidden" state but still in Christ.

God bless

 

[Solo]

If one believes that the SALVATION that God GIVES to SINNERS can be GIVEN back, then such a one does not understand GOD'S SALVATION!

Also, such a one does not understand the walking in the Spirit and walking in the flesh and the ramifications of both. 1 Corinthians is plain that a believers works will be divided into works of the flesh and works of the spirit; and those works of the flesh will be burned up, yet the believer will be saved.

I believe, if you look closely, that walking in the Spirit is a mandate, because when one walks after the flesh they backslide and the heart can become hardened (look at my new "backsliding thread" where I relate - in brief - my experience). It becomes a theological necessity of great importance then, when the Bible tells you (as a believer) not to do something, to ask: Why? What are the consequences if I do?. And not to make the pompous and nullifying stance of "Well the true Christian couldn't do that".

Try one time to read what is written and debate the points in the direction of the points made in a clear and precise manner instead of rambling on in an incoherant manner. I will point out again that Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 that a born again believer can walk in the flesh and build his works of the flesh (wood, hay, and stubble) upon the foundation of their faith, Jesus Christ and lose rewards but be SAVED in the end. You failed to address this point.

• 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Where does the Bible speak of "Backsliding" and what does "Backsliding" do to a believer? Does "Backsliding" cause a Believer to lose his Salvation?[/b] Why or Why Not?

Where does the Bible mandate walking in the Spirit and for what purpose? What if a believer does not walk in the Spirit but walks in the flesh? Did the Corinthians walk in the flesh or the Spirit or both? Did Paul walk in the Spirit or the flesh or both?

Do the sins that you commit day in and day out keep you from being born again? Why or why not?

If being born again was a process, yes. But it is not.

What is being born again?

So rather if we can receive God's grace in vain, and set it aside ("falling from grace" - no, not using this as falling from salvation proof, but rather as indication of not walking in God's grace as a Christian, which then could lead, I believe, to loosing it if you continue unrepentant in it), then what grace then is there left to save us if we continually run from it?

God has unmerited favor upon mankind(GRACE) and has GIVEN mankind a FREE GIFT for ETERNITY. GOD NEVER GIVES ETERNAL LIFE AND THEN TAKES IT BACK. ONCE ETERNAL LIFE IS GIVEN IT IS GIVEN FOR ETERNITY!

You cannot give an example of anyone LOOSING the SALVATION that GOD has PROVIDED, nor can you explain at what point a BELIEVER LOOSES HIS/HER SALVATION!

No where in the Bible is there ar reference to anyone loosing their salvation!

At what point is there no more REPENTENCE for a BELIEVER? Where does the Bible speak of no more REPENTENCE?

I will show you one place:

• 1 Therefore leaving the principles F16 of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:1-6

Does this mean that a BELIEVER falls away when he walks in the flesh? Does this mean that a BELIEVER falls away when he lives a life of sin in between a life of walking in the Spirit? Does this mean that there can be no more REPENTENCE for those BELIEVERS because the CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS CHRIST IS UNABLE TO PAY THE PRICE FOR ALL SINS?

What about the Seven Churches mentioned in Revelation? IF THERE IS NO MORE REPENTENCE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT WALKED IN THE SPIRIT and have walked according to the flesh, why did JESUS TELL THEM TO REPENT?

Where is repentance & acquital from sin outside of grace? You do know that saving is a constant action by God (to be consummated in the future), and that it also means "preserving", do you not?

Salvation is a combination of justification, sanctification, and glorification. All born again believers are saved when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell within them, sealing them until the day of redemption.

All born again believers are being saved when the Holy Spirit sanctifies them day by day in the teachings of the Word of God.

All born again believers will be saved completely with a glorified, incorrupt, immortal body when Jesus returns.

A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER IS JUSTIFIED FOR ETERNITY WHEN HE IS BORN AGAIN.

A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER IS SANCTIFIED DURING HIS LIFE AS HE BUILDS UPON THE FOUNDATION OF HIS JUSTIFICATION WITH WORKS THAT WILL REAP REWARDS. All works done in the flesh will be burned up and destroyed but the Believer is SAVED.

A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER IS GLORIFIED WHEN JESUS RETURNS AND THE BELIEVERS BODY IS RESURRECTED AND/OR CHANGED INTO AN INCORRUPTIBLE, IMMORTAL CREATURE JOINED WITH THE BORN AGAIN SOUL.

With that said, "What part of a Believer's sin is too big for God's Grace to handle?

Did Jesus not teach that one is to forgive his brother 7 times 70 indicating an endless count of forgiveness. If Jesus would teach a corruptible, mortal man those things, would you not agree that God's grace is so much more sufficient over man's sin. Does not the Bible teach that where sin abounds, grace abounds more!

According to Matthew 24:13, what is one to endure to the end in order to be saved? How is one to endure? Does one who endures until the end still sin? Why or why not?

Why does Paul in Ephesians after saying that salvation is a gift of grace, not of ourselves, and that God has created between the Jew and Gentile a new man, abolishing the enmity between them, then proceed to strongly admonish them to diligently preserve the unity of the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3), lest (it seems) it deteriorate - causing the grieving of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30), and why even after saying that God has already unified them yet still tell them to strive for the unity of the faith (Ephesians 4:13) [implying that the unity could be broken - which is why he warns against fights in the church] and why does he also admonish them to no longer be children (babes in Christ - who are saved none-the-less) who could be suceptable to being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine (Ephesians 4:14)? What if a Church never grows to this maturity? Do you believe it is impossible for such people to be decieved? Surely not, for Paul warns constantly for the believer to avoid deception, and to not be caught in the snares of false prophets because it is infact very possible, thus poses a danger to the Christian. The Christian - Paul indicates - can be foolish, thus Paul admonishes them to not be foolish ("So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is" - Ephesians 5:17) and to rather grow in maturity (something we have to do, though by God's power) because "we are to grow up in all apects into Him" (Ephesians 4:15).

An immature, unknowledgible Christian can be fooled. It happens every day. Paul gives us a good example in the Church at Corinth. Those who believe that God's Salvation is not able to overcome sin in a Believer's life are fooled.

Now if you wouldn't mind answering these questions one at a time without rambling on and on about items that have no bearing in this debate. Thank you.

Thus we are told to mature, to not be foolish (thus allowing ourselves to be decieved and tossed to and fro - and what would be the consequences of never moving past that?), and to preserve the unity that Christ originally put us in. Thus you see we can allow it to degenerate, thus grieving God, if we are not careful. What do you think the end consequences for a degerating, immature Church will be? Christ will surely remove their lampstand (Revelation 2:5) won't He?

The lampstand of the churches that do not let the light of the Gospel of Christ to shine will have it removed. The lampstand has absolutely nothing to do with a Believer's Salvation!

 

[cyberjosh]

That was a long post, so I will have to answer it in pieces (some in another post when I have time). I'll answer what I can here:

Where does the Bible speak of "Backsliding" and what does "Backsliding" do to a believer? Does "Backsliding" cause a Believer to lose his Salvation? Why or Why Not?

Backsliding is not a technical term which I could give you derivation of from the Hebrew or Greek, but the concept is there. I have already given the example of falling from grace, as a form of backsliding, having begun in the Spirit then trying to be made perfect in the flesh is a step backward - as Paul pointed out. Now AV strongly objects to this "fallen from grace" verse being used as a "loose your salvation" verse, and well enough for him I never used it that way - rather as I said a backsliding, which I then contended only if continued in could eventually lead to a hardened heart (Hebrews 3:13) which seperates your heart more and more by callouses to God's grace until it may be possible to reject the giver of that grace: The Holy Spirit (and rejecting the Holy Spirit is the equivalent of blasphemy - the unforgivable sin). Wherein is that logic flawed? Do you think that God will forcibly rescue such a person every time from their hardened heart? I have contended in times past it is no easy road to run from the Holy Spirit for he will chastize you (Hebrews 12), but this does not mean you will always heed the chastizements. Rejecting the Holy Spirit's work in you is dangerous, this is all I caution.

That basic concern & premise I'm sure even you could agree with. It seems though that I see fighting against the Holy Spirit as a little more serious than you do, because I see deeper consequences. If you can justify your position of what you think the consequences are of resisting the Holy Spirit's work in you (which a believer can do) then perhaps I would be more inclined to see your point-of-view, because I cannot and will not treat such a matter lightly.

Where does the Bible mandate walking in the Spirit and for what purpose?

What if a believer does not walk in the Spirit but walks in the flesh?

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Here our mandate is to put to death the deeds of the body, or at least it is a condition for obtaining life. Do "carnal Christians" as Paul talks about (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) put to death the deeds of the body? What if such babes in Christ do not mature? Or can you show me a scripture that says all Christians will mature past the "babe" state? Is not the "babe" state what the author of Hebrews (which I believe was Paul) was reprimanding those he was talking to in chapter 5 right before he wrote Hebrews 6:4-6, saying that they all ought to have been teachers by then? What do you make of this?

Galatians 5:16-17 - "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

Here we do see a mandate "walk in the Spirit". Now this lust of the flesh is something which the Christian is able to dabble in, as also Romans 7 shows, although it may not his inward desire according to his spirit, he still may lust after things in the flesh by his own fleshly desire (James 1:14). Now since the Christian can unfortunately fall into this, Paul immediately after he wrote the above includes after it what the ultimate fulfillments of the lust of the flesh are, and saying that such will not have an inheritance in the kingdom of God (which sounds like a warning): "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. " (Galatians 5:19-21).

Thus by not walking in the Spirit the consequences are lapsing into he flesh, the portion of which is a non-inheritance in the kingdom of God. Sounds like a warning to me. Or was that meant to be a comforting verse? I seriously would like to hear your views on this.

Did the Corinthians walk in the flesh or the Spirit or both? Did Paul walk in the Spirit or the flesh or both?

Going on memory the Corinthians had much problems in their Church, and Paul even told them to put out an immoral person in their congregation, they were being intensely tempted to delve into the works of the flesh and there was divisiveness in the body (a major theme in Ephesians - of which we are told to preserve the unity). Surely such warnings were unnecessary if there was no important consequences if they instead did them. And what of the men whom Paul delivered over to Satan? That sounds real dangerous. Ofcourse Paul did that so that they may learn not to blaspheme, but what if they didn't! And is not blasphemy the cause of the unforgivable sin?

As for Paul he had determined (and obviously must be a man of integrity to be in his position - though he too had his struggles and his thorn in the flesh) to live with his flesh toward God, because he decided to yeild his earthly body to righteousness and he said "and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith" and thereafter "I do not nullify the grace of God" (Galatians 2:20-21).

However Paul makes it clear that you can nullify God's grace by receiving it in vain. This he makes clear when he admonishes his brothers and sisters in Christ: "We also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1).

Consider these points and tell me your thoughts.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Solo]

Answer the following questions:

You have a tendency to quote specific Scriptures out of context and minus its full meaning. Why do you do that? Is it because you are unable to explain the whole Scripture?

At what point does a believer no longer have the sold under sin corruptible mortal flesh?

Is this the same flesh that the believer had prior to being born again?

What does justification mean?

Is the flesh becoming sanctified, or is the mind of a believer becoming santified?

Is this verse of Scripture speaking of the physical death of one who lives in the physical flesh?

• Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

I know of nowhere in the Scriptures where a believer is said to be fighting the Holy Spirit. Paul teaches that a believer has a battle going on between the new creature (born again inward man) and the old man (corrupt, sold under sin flesh).

The Scriptures say that believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. The day of redemption is the glorification of the believer, and is when believers are resurrected into their glorified bodies.

• 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:12-14
  
  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

Paul does not teach "that you can nullify God's grace by receiveing it in vain".

You have not answered my question....What is being born again?

Also you cannot give an example of anyone LOOSING the SALVATION that GOD has PROVIDED, nor can you explain at what point a BELIEVER LOOSES HIS/HER SALVATION!

No where in the Bible is there a reference to anyone loosing their salvation!

At what point is there no more REPENTENCE for a BELIEVER? Where does the Bible speak of no more REPENTENCE?

 

[destiny]

Posted this previously somewhere - Sorry it is long - can't modify due to only have one hand available (left hand at that!) but this may answer my own challenge -

What Happens at the Point of Salvation

I mentioned before the reason folks have a hard time with OSAS is that they do not know doctrinally what happens at the point of salvation. So, let’s see what took place – if one can get this settled then, if the Lord is in it, then the OSAS will not become an issue. This a bit long but really not long enough but we can’t cover it all on this forum.

First – God is holy, just, righteous, and pure. God will accept nothing less that this standard if you are to spend eternity with Him.

Second – Your Condition Prior to Salvation Which Keeps You from God

You were born dead in trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

This is because you are born in Adam’s image and inherited his sin nature which was a fallen nature being separated and an enemy of God. Your righteousness is filthy rags and at your best state you are altogether vanity. Let’s get deeper – According to Romans you have no understanding, are not righteous, are no good, and are not seeking God. You are separated from God and blinded to spiritual truth – 1 Cor. 2:14 and II Cor. 4:3. Adam once was body, soul, and spirit – all separate and pure from sin. And now because of Adam’s sin your soul has become stuck to your dying and rotting flesh. You are in a mess.

Now the Problem – God can accept nothing short of perfect righteousness and holiness in order for you to spend eternity with him for without holiness no man can see the Lord and here it is not a practical holiness but a sinless perfection that you must have!!!

Now – how are you going to meet that standard? How are you going to take a nature that is fallen and restore it? How are you going to become perfect, holy, and righteous? How are you going to separate your soul from your rotting flesh and regenerate your dead spirit? Do you realize what a feat this is? Can you do this by:

1. Making a commitment to Christ?
2. Living a good life?
3. Repenting?
4. Praying?

Or whatever you have been taught to do?

The issue here is you are not just trying to live a good life again but…………

You have to become the righteousness of God while being in a sinful body here on earth!

I hate to be like a cold dish rag coming across your face but the bad news is – you cannot accomplish this. It will take a miraculous work by God not you obeying the commandments and living a good life of repentance.

Quick summary:

God is holy – you are unholy
God demands a sin payment for your offence – You cannot pay it
God demands a perfect sacrifice – You can’t be that for your blood is tainted with sin
Therefore – unless God does the word of restoration you will end up in the lake of fire where you were destined from birth.

Third – How can God bring you back without violating His holiness? God knows you can’t accomplish you becoming holy (even though you think you can) so God does the work for you.

1. Christ becomes the sin payment – God is satisfied with what Christ did for He is perfect, just and righteous.
2. God accepts the sin payment because Christ’s blood is not tainted with sin.
3. Christ dies for your sins, is buried, and is raised from the dead – finished.
4. Christ becomes sin for you – He becomes your sin payment for you.

Now – how do you get brought into this plan?

Fourth – Your Salvation

1. You were walking according to the course of this wicked world in sin and darkness not looking for God – Eph. 2:1; Rom. 3.
2. Somewhere you heard the word of God – Rom. 10:17.
3. The word convicted you of your sinfulness – Heb. 4:12
4. God regenerated your dead spirit – Titus. 3:5
5. God separated your soul from your flesh – Col. 2:11-13
6. God put you into the body of Christ and you became bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh – Eph. 5:30
7. God sealed you with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption – Eph. 1:13
8. God forgave you based upon the finished work of Christ – Col. 1:14 and Eph. 1:7
9. God justified you based upon the faith of Jesus Christ not your faith in Christ – Gal. 2:16.
10. God made you righteous based upon Christ – II Cor. 5:17; Rom. 3:22
11. Then God opened your eyes and you believed – II Cor. 4:6.
12. God made you a new creature – II Cor. 5:17

Summary of above:

God has judicially declared you just, holy, and righteous in the person of Jesus Christ – no other way. When God put you in Christ you became righteous for He is righteous.

Now how are you going to accomplish this work without the 12 points I mentioned above?
Come on now – I’m listening – tell me how you can do what was required by God to make your standing and position with him perfect? What are you going to do to satisfy God’s demand for perfect righteousness?

Let’s get down to the nitty gritty here – the purpose for this post.

In order for you to be reconciled unto God those 12 points (plus others) have to be done and they can only be done by God.

So, how are you going to do those 12 points by your own power and if these 12 points were done for you then how are you going to undo them by your own power so you can lose your salvation? I’m listening.

The Plan –

See God’s holiness and then you will see your sinfulness and then and only then you will flee to Christ for there is no other hope.

The saint is made righteous by Christ – God sees the saint as righteous through Christ and Christ alone.

Do you want to be reconciled to God – then get in Christ.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

God bless

AV ....what do you feel is our responsibility towards God? I need to find out your thoughts on that. Thanks

 

[cyberjosh]

You have a tendency to quote specific Scriptures out of context and minus its full meaning. Why do you do that? Is it because you are unable to explain the whole Scripture?

And you have a tendency toward being vague and avoiding my questions. I quote lots of scripture in my posts. So if you would be more specific please as to which scriptures I am "misapplying", and answer my genuine question of what you thought the necessity of the warnings was I would appreciate that.

You see I'm trying to lay forth the doctrine without excluding the necessary element of the fear of the Lord, which so many leave out, thus the multiple warnings given. What say you to this?

Paul does not teach "that you can nullify God's grace by receiveing it in vain".

And what praytell leads you to this conclusion? You don't seem to believe what you read, but rather read what you believe. If Paul warns us not to recieve the grace of God in vain, then it is possible to do so. My little brother could tell you that much by just reading the scripture with no preconceptions.


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Solo]

You have a tendency to quote specific Scriptures out of context and minus its full meaning. Why do you do that? Is it because you are unable to explain the whole Scripture?

And you have a tendency toward being vague and avoiding my questions. I quote lots of scripture in my posts. So if you would be more specific please as to which scriptures I am "misapplying", and answer my genuine question of what you thought the necessity of the warnings was I would appreciate that.

Josh,
You are a very intelligent young man, and your striving to know God's truth is a sign that is seldom seen in this world today. You have my respect. Please do not take my direct to the point posts as being anything personal against you. My manner of posting has always been direct without much mercy. (Mercy and Giving are the two Spiritual gifts at the bottom of the list of gifts given me). Now in answer to your recent post:

You do not ask questions. You go off on some tangent that you understand but is a path which is undefined to those who read your posts. They are very difficult to follow. Work on it. Know your audience and construct your argument in an organized pattern that can easily be outlined.

You see I'm trying to lay forth the doctrine without excluding the necessary element of the fear of the Lord, which so many leave out, thus the multiple warnings given. What say you to this?

The Word of God will take care of itself as you rightly divide the word of truth.

• Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

To apply the fear of the Lord in the passages of Scripture where there is no need is very questionable concerning your motives. Do you not understand that their is no condemnation to those that are born again?

• Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24
  
  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:9
  
  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 5:9

The wrath of God is poured out on the children of disobedience who have not been born again. Those who have born again are not condemned, and they will never experience the wrath of God.

Paul does not teach "that you can nullify God's grace by receiveing it in vain".

And what praytell leads you to this conclusion? You don't seem to believe what you read, but rather read what you believe. If Paul warns us not to receive the grace of God in vain, then it is possible to do so. My little brother could tell you that much by just reading the scripture with no preconceptions.

You have twisted the Scripture of Galatians 2:21 by taking it completely out of context. You have declared your thoughts on the matter in the following statement:

• However Paul makes it clear that you can nullify God's grace by receiving it in vain. This he makes clear when he admonishes his brothers and sisters in Christ: "We also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1).

Paul is teaching the Galatians, and those Believers to follow, that the law will not justify an individual before God, but only the work that Jesus Christ has done for us will justify and sanctify us before God Almighty!

• 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:19-21

Verse 21 states that Paul does not frustrate the grace of God by believing that the law justifies and sanctifies one makes the work of Jesus Christ worthless! This Scripture enhances the teaching that God's Salvation is irrepressible and unable to be lost. It is impossible for a born again believer to "nullify, make void, frustrate" the grace of God. The foundation of a born again believer is established in Christ Jesus, not the believer ability to keep the law.

Ask your little brother if he can teach you to rightly divide the word of truth, and to take it all in context with the whole council of God at your disposal.

Also, you have once again failed to answer one question that I have asked. It appears to me that you fail to answer because you do not know the answer. That is okay if you do not, as I will take the time to teach you.

Now for the first lesson. All sentences with the "?" at the end of the sentence is a question that requires an answer. If you do not know the answer to a question, then make the statement, "I do not know the answer to that question, but I will add it to my list of topics to study."

The second part of the first lesson follows: When you want an answer to a question, then add the "?" to the end of your sentence, and make sure that you format the sentence in question form.

God bless,
Michael

 

[AVBunyan]

AV ....what do you feel is our responsibility towards God? I need to find out your thoughts on that. Thanks

After that post this is all you are concerned with?! This is all you have to ask??!! :o My emphasis on this thread is the work of justification - not the practical side.

At any rate here is a cut and paste from my post on Justification:

II. My Duty After Justification
Real clear – walk worthy - Eph. 4:1; live godly - Tit. 2:12, be not conformed to this world - Rom. 12:2; study - II Tim. 2:15; pray - Phil. 4:6; forgive others - Eph. 4:32; love my wife (Eph. 5); witness - II Cor. 5:20; be thankful - I Thess. 5:18, and the list goes on and on. So I don’t just stop at believing for after believing and being saved the real work begins - Phil. 2:12.

If a person fails at the above now and then does not mean he can lose what God did. If the saint does none of the above then there is good evidence the work of regeneration probably never took place. Man cannot undo what God did.

Prior to salvation the lost man's responsibility is to:

Eccl 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Since his fallen nature will not allow this then his responsibility is to flee to Christ and believe the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5

Where do you get this idea that I am against holy living and obedience? If one is trusting his holy living and obedience to aid him in his justification then this false teaching I am against. Only a regenerated person can truly seek to love holy and obey.

 

[Drew]

I How is the sinner justified before God?

This material from NT Wright (I have deleted some of it for the sake of conciseness) summarizes addresses this question

The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

This passage has often been read differently. Here is the first statement about justification in Romans, and lo and behold it affirms justification according to works! The doers of the law, he says, will be justified (2.13). Shock, horror; Paul cannot (so many have thought) have really meant it. Paul means what he says. Granted, he redefines what ‘doing the law’ really means; he does this in chapter 8, and again in chapter 10, with a codicil in chapter 13. But he makes the point most compactly in Philippians 1.6: he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus.

The ‘works’ in accordance with which the Christian will be vindicated on the last day are not the unaided works of the self-help moralist. Nor are they the performance of the ethnically distinctive Jewish boundary-markers (sabbath, food-laws and circumcision). They are the things which show, rather, that one is in Christ; the things which are produced in one’s life as a result of the Spirit’s indwelling and operation. In this way, Romans 8.1–17 provides the real answer to Romans 2.1–16. Why is there now ‘no condemnation’? Because, on the one hand, God has condemned sin in the flesh of Christ and, on the other hand, because the Spirit is at work to do, within believers, what the Law could not do – ultimately, to give life, but a life that begins in the present with the putting to death of the deeds of the body and the obedient submission to the leading of the Spirit.

I am fascinated by the way in which some of those most conscious of their reformation heritage shy away from Paul’s clear statements about future judgment according to works. It is not often enough remarked upon, for instance, that in the Thessalonian letters, and in Philippians, he looks ahead to the coming day of judgment and sees God’s favourable verdict not on the basis of the merits and death of Christ, but on the basis of his apostolic work. ‘What is our hope and joy and crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus Christ at his royal appearing? Is it not you? For you are our glory and our joy.’ (1 Thess. 3.19f.; cp. Phil. 2.16f.)

Sometimes, to be sure, he adds a rider, which proves my point, that it is not his own energy but that which God gives and inspires within him (1 Cor. 15.10; Col. 1.29). But he is still clear that the things he does in the present, by moral and physical effort, will count to his credit on the last day, precisely because they are the effective signs that the Spirit of the living Christ has been at work in him. We are embarrassed about saying this kind of thing; Paul clearly is not. What on earth can have happened to a sola scriptura theology that it should find itself forced to screen out such emphatic, indeed celebratory, statements?

The future verdict, when it is positive, can be denoted by the verb ‘justify’. This carries its full forensic sense, rooted in the ancient Jewish belief that the God of Israel, being the creator of the world and also the God of justice, would finally put the world to rights, in other words, that he would conduct a final Assize. On that day there will be ‘glory, honour, immortality and the life of the age to come’ for all who do right (Romans 2.7); in other words (verse 13) they will be justified, declared to be in the right.

This ought to have highlighted long ago something which I believe has played too little part in discussions of Paul: justification by faith, to which I shall come in a moment, is the anticipation in the present of the justification which will occur in the future, and gains its meaning from that anticipation. What Augustine lacked, what Luther and Calvin lacked, what Regensburg lacked as a way of putting together the two things it tried to hold on to, was Paul’s eschatological perspective, filled out by the biblical fusion of covenantal and forensic categories.

I find this argument compelling.

 

[unred typo]

To apply the fear of the Lord in the passages of Scripture where there is no need is very questionable concerning your motives. Do you not understand that their is no condemnation to those that are born again?

Wrong. Here is the crux of your problem understanding scripture. You have tweaked this verse to slant it to your own interpretation. There is no condemnation to those who what, Solo? To those which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Solo]

Wrong. Here is the crux of your problem understanding scripture. You have tweaked this verse to slant it to your own interpretation. There is no condemnation to those who what, Solo? To those which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wrong oh one who slants his understanding without dividing the truth of the Word of God rightly, and slants portions of Scripture without regarding the whole council of God's Word. Romans 8:1 speaks according to your understanding if it is the only Scripture that we are to follow. Fortunately, God is a whole lot smarter than that, and He has given us his whole truth concerning this matter in the following Scripture of Romans 8, not to mention in His entire Word. Let us look at this according to God's "Slant":

• There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

In the subsequent verses of Romans 8 we find that those who are born again are not of flesh but are of the Spirit. Those who have been born again are no longer of the flesh, but are of the Spirit. Those that have been born of God, born again, have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, and the flesh is dead in Christ.

• 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, F28 condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally F29 minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal F30 mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:1-10

When one understands the FREE GIFT of JUSTIFICATION, then one can understand the entire Word of God. Paul has written that those who have the FREE GIFT are no longer condemned, but are righteous (Justified) in Christ Jesus.

• And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Romans 5:16

By ONE OFFENSE, condemnation came upon ALL men, but by the righteousness of JESUS CHRIST (not the righteousness of man), the FREE GIFT of JUSTIFICATION came and removed the condemnation.

• Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18

Who are under condemnation? Those who have been born of God and are born again residing in Christ Jesus, or those who have not been born of God, and are NOT born again, and are apart from Christ Jesus? Let us let Jesus tell us:

• 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, F7 he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. F8 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:3-21

Jesus is plain that those who are born of the Spirit are not condemned but those who are not born of the Spirit are condemned.

Those who are born of the Spirit, born again are not condemned as the unbelieving world, but are instead chastized:

• But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 1 Corinthians 11:32

Noah was secure when he was in the ark. What brought Noah to build the ark was his fear of the Lord. Noah's faith led him to build the ark as he feared God. When Noah was in the ark he was no longer afraid, as he knew that he was IN GOD'S ARK. Those who are born of the Spirit are driven to God through the fear of God. The beginning of knowledge is the fear of God. Once one is born of the Spirit, one is now IN CHRIST, the SALVATION OF GOD.

• 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:6-7