For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[handy]

Would you really like someone from the OSAS came to address those texts? And if I address them what happens then?

Also, are you implying that OSAS people never quote any other verse other then Ephesians 2:8? Would you really like me to defend that doctrine scripturally not even bothering to mention Ephesians?

: : : I think we are on-line at the same time and are one step behind in addressing each other's posts.

Yes, I would very much like someone from the OSAS camp to address those texts. If you address them, then we all increase our understanding a widom in regards to important biblical issues, a good thing. Too often, I've seen the teaching that these verses only apply to those who might look like they may be saved, but never actually were. However, in studying the context of these verses, it is clear that these warnings are for believers. Paul even includes himself in 1 Corinthians 9:27 and we can hardly teach that Paul wasn't a believer.

I want to be really really clear here. I truly do not believe that any one will ever lose their salvation. I don't like OSAS because I don't think saying "Once saved, always saved" presents our walk in a realistic, biblical manner. I prefer "Can but Won't". One can lose one's salvation, but given the promises of God and His working in our lives, one won't. This takes into account these passages which indicate that we do have to guard our faith. And, it takes into account all the wonderful promises God give us that He will be faithful to present us faultless. Both sides of the same coin.

 

[mondar]

Most people start off with Armenianistic theology of salvation and as they grow, they lean more to a Reformed view of Justification...

I used to believe that I could loose my salvation but as I studied the Word of God more and more, I realized that my beliefs were wrong...

I think people are born into this world pelagian, they are born again arminian, and grow into Calvinists.

Did you ever hear the illustration of the door? There is a sign over the door "whosoever may come." When you pass through the door, there is a different sign on the back of the door that says "chosen in him from the foundation of the world." Of course that is election.

Concerning justification, agree that many do not understand justification. I like Luther's illustration. He said that in justification we are like a dunghill after a 1 inch snow storm. It is beautiful and white, but inside it stinks. In justification we are not changed, but merely pronounced righteous. (Of course in the doctrine of regeneration there is change, also in sanctification there is change, but not in justification). Some make the mistake of thinking justification is a process that changes a dunghill into a pile of gold. There is no gold in that pile of dung.

If this illustration is offensive or odious, please blame Luther, he is the stinker that made it up. I merely borrowed it. :D

 

[jgredline]

Handy
With all due respect, are you not in the middle of a debate about this with Michael???...So far it has been a lop sided debate....You are either going to live in fear that one day you will wake up and realize that you ''lost'' your salvation or your not....Of course this would go against the scripture that says...God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of ?????? ''somebody finish it''

 

[handy]

Handy
With all due respect, are you not in the middle of a debate about this with Michael???...So far it has been a lop sided debate....You are either going to live in fear that one day you will wake up and realize that you ''lost'' your salvation or your not....Of course this would go against the scripture that says...God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of ?????? ''somebody finish it''

power, love and a sound mind! 2 Timothy 1:7 And so He did and so I have! (Though some might quibble over the sound mind part! :-? )

No, I do not live in fear that one day I will wake up and realize that I've lost my salvation. My problem with OSAS as a taught doctrine is not that I believe that we will lose our salvation. I think I've mentioned several times that I believe all who are the Lord's will be saved. The problem is that a: I believe that the Bible teaches us that we can lose salvation, see all the texts shared previously and we can also throw 1 Corinthians 10:1-12 into the mix. And b: By our changing the biblical teaching that we will not lose salvation to we can not lose salvation, we change the truth of Scripture, thereby weakening our stand and, as I mentioned earlier, ill equipping ourselves.

The debate with Michael is moving forward. We are just starting it out by a very in-depth look at salvation, a good place to start. I'm not silenced, by no means, just patiently waiting for Michael to get his points out.

 

[thessalonian]

Handy
With all due respect, are you not in the middle of a debate about this with Michael???...So far it has been a lop sided debate....You are either going to live in fear that one day you will wake up and realize that you ''lost'' your salvation or your not....Of course this would go against the scripture that says...God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of ?????? ''somebody finish it''

This is nonsense. We know that if we keep our focus and trust on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that we need to fear. We know also that if we claim to be stonger than temptation we will fall and so we rely on him. This is not fearful at all. Further it is impossible for limited fallible humans to have infallible knowledge of their end. Even if you are 95% certain that your interpretation that tells you that OSAS is true is correct, you do not have 100% assurance. Sorry. Mathematically it fails the test. Trusting in Christ however does not fail any test. I will follow him, not my own presumptions.

 

[mondar]

: : : I think we are on-line at the same time and are one step behind in addressing each other's posts.

Yes, I would very much like someone from the OSAS camp to address those texts. If you address them, then we all increase our understanding a widom in regards to important biblical issues, a good thing. Too often, I've seen the teaching that these verses only apply to those who might look like they may be saved, but never actually were. However, in studying the context of these verses, it is clear that these warnings are for believers. Paul even includes himself in 1 Corinthians 9:27 and we can hardly teach that Paul wasn't a believer.

OK, in my next post I will start with 1 cor 9:27.


I want to be really really clear here. I truly do not believe that any one will ever lose their salvation. [/quote]
Hang on, I just fell out of my chair.


OK. I am back... I really got to work harder on figuring out what you are saying.

I don't like OSAS because I don't think saying "Once saved, always saved" presents our walk in a realistic, biblical manner. I prefer "Can but Won't". One can lose one's salvation, but given the promises of God and His working in our lives, one won't. This takes into account these passages which indicate that we do have to guard our faith. And, it takes into account all the wonderful promises God give us that He will be faithful to present us faultless. Both sides of the same coin.

OK, I think I got it. You are not saying that we can loose our salvation, you are saying that OSAS can be used incorrectly to justify sin. A person can behave in an antinomian way and justify his misbehavior on the basis that Christ died for sinners. This reminds me of Romans 6:1ff. Paul presents a hypothetical question about the misuse of the doctrine of justification by faith without works (sola fide). I can accept that good biblical doctrines can be terribly misused, but as Paul I would exclaim "May it never be!"

By the way.... I am out of time, I will have to address the issue of your passage in 1 Cor in a few hours. Gotta run.

 

[thessalonian]

jgred,

maybe ya better lock it while the lockin is good. :

Sounds like solo has plans to dump truck alot of unrelated info. Maybe handy has time for line for line rebuttals of everything under the sun.

 

[Drew]

Hello mondar:

I find your answer to be a little confusing and I will attempt to explain why.

At one point in your post, you state:

I see faith as the knowledge that God is trustworthy.

This seems to be a statement that faith is constituted by knowledge of some sort.

Later, you state:

Abraham knew this was the promised seed, yet he was willing to do something completely irrational and obey God in Genesis 22. Why? Faith!

.
I would be inclined to assert that Abraham's act of obedience is partly constitutive of his faith. Are you saying that "faith" is purely constituted by knowledge of some sort or is it, as I believe, inextricably bound up in actions as well.

You later write (I have added bolding):

In faith, we do not make a decision, but we walk out on the board and live on the edge of a board that overhangs the sky scraper. We now live over the edge because we trust that God is able. Faith is not a decision, it is a life.

Here you sound like you hold the position that I hold - that part of the content of faith are the actions you take.

Now a key point: Saying that "real faith is purely an item of knowledge and will be manifested by actions" is not the same as saying "real faith is (at least partly) constituted by actions". I hold to the latter position.

Can you please clarify. Is the concept of "faith" partly constituted by actions or not? I believe that this is a coherent and meaningful question and I am hoping that you can address it squarely.

I think many N. American Christians believe that faith is conceptually distinct from actions - that a person can have "saving faith" even if they consistently sin. I do not believe this is so - to say that one has faith without works is to say that the faith is dead - non-salvific.

 

[handy]

thess, I didn't take JG's post to mean that we need not fear the Lord, but rather we need not have fears and worries that God's promises and grace isn't sufficent.

AVBunyan, I feel somewhat convicted that this thread is not going as you intended it to be. You started by asking some specific questions, and so far only one has actually answered them. If I'm hi-jacking things here, please accept my apologies and I'll be happy to start a new thread. I took another look at your original post and it seems that you want to concentrate more on why one cannot (or better yet, will not) lose salvation as opposed to a discussion on whether or not one can or cannot lose salvation. I'm all for the promises of God and why we do have eternal security. I'm a firm believer in the preservation of the saints. I just think OSAS doesn't provide a clear understanding of the gospel and would like to delve deeper into those texts which are given as warnings and examples. But, if that's not your purpose of this thread, again I apologize and will take my issues elsewhere.

 

[jgredline]

This is nonsense. We know that if we keep our focus and trust on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that we need to fear.

...Your right, this is ''nonsense''...There is a difference if being ''afraid'' and having a healthy respect for the Lord....The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom....

We know also that if we claim to be stonger than temptation we will fall and so we rely on him. This is not fearful at all.

...Who said we are stronger than temptation....The scriptures teach that God will not temp us beyond what we can handle..Of course one has to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to resist...

Further it is impossible for limited fallible humans to have infallible knowledge of their end. Even if you are 95% certain that your interpretation that tells you that OSAS is true is correct, you do not have 100% assurance. Sorry.

...Awe, where the rubber meets the road....Well, I have news for you....I am 100% sure that I will not ever loose my salvation....The bible says that God is not man that he should lie....Now this statement of yours says allot about your beliefs and your lack of faith in understanding the word of God....But then again you have purgatory to fall back on :wink:

Mathematically it fails the test. Trusting in Christ however does not fail any test. I will follow him, not my own presumptions.

But you just finished saying that it is not possible to have 100% assurance....Oh wait...Purgatory is like an insurance policy.... :wink:

 

[jgredline]

jgred,

maybe ya better lock it while the lockin is good. :

Sounds like solo has plans to dump truck alot of unrelated info. Maybe handy has time for line for line rebuttals of everything under the sun.

You mean the dump truck of Knowledge that he used to school you in the debate about purgatory :wink:

 

[thessalonian]

....I am 100% sure that I will not ever loose my salvation....The bible says that God is not man that he should lie....Now this statement of yours says allot about your beliefs and your lack of faith in understanding the word of God....But then again you have purgatory to fall back on

I am not in the slighest accusing God of lying. That is a twist of what I am saying. Your belief in OSAS depends on interpretation of scriptures of which many others disagree. You are not infallible and cannot be 100% certain of any interpretation and therefore cannot be 100% assured of salvation, no matter how much you kid yourself. But of course you will not acknowledge this fact.

Once again purgatory is not about salvation, but sanctification and so you again bear false witness against the catholic church.

 

[sisterchristian]

Not to be confused with us not having to do any good in this world to go to heaven.

Romans
4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
[5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

How is this to be reconciled with salvation by grace through faith? Easily.

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

When we come to faith and act on that faith, God gives us the grace to do all things in him. Without him we can do nothing.

Many confuse works of the law and works of charity or love. We are told that love is greater than faith and hope. We must have love to enter heaven.

The works of charity and Love are pretty much the FRUITS because the Fruits of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth. (Gal.2:21) I do not set aside the Grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died in Vain.

 

[sisterchristian]

Personally, something that convinced me of OSAS was when I saw that the elect will absolutely bear fruit. This raises the question what if the elect become carnal, or fall into some sin. While this can happen, God will never allow it to continue. If it continues, God will take the life of a believer before he allows him to loose his salvation. Notice how 1 Cor 11 works.

30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

In these verses some are chastened to death in verse 30. Yet in verse 32 these Christians who were chastened to death are not "condemned with the world."

Some might think what I am saying is the nasty side of OSAS. Yet if you think in eternal terms, it is far more graceous of God to protect the carnal christian from being eternally damned, then to allow him to go into eternity damned.

I have heard those that deny OSAS say that if you believe in OSAS you can go out and "live like the devil." Exactly the opposite is true. In OSAS it is impossible for the believer to "live like the devil." We are saved to bear fruit, and it is God who brings forth that fruit. There is always fruit, but if the crop of fruit is too small, chastening can come. That is why some are sick, and some sleep.

That's true because sometimes God will turn you over for the destruction of the body so that the soul might be saved

 

[jgredline]

I am not in the slighest accusing God of lying. That is a twist of what I am saying. Your belief in OSAS depends on interpretation of scriptures of which many others disagree. You are not infallible and cannot be 100% certain of any interpretation and therefore cannot be 100% assured of salvation, no matter how much you kid yourself. But of course you will not acknowledge this fact.

I am not talking about OSAS doctrine, but about what the word of God says and teaches...The bible teaches that I am justified and that God sees the righteousness of his son Jesus...The bible teaches that none can pluck me from the saviors hand, the bible tells teaches that Jesus will not loose a single sheep....The bible teaches that nothing will ever separate me from the love who is Christ Jesus...The bible teaches that I will be ''glorified''....

Once again purgatory is not about salvation, but sanctification and so you again bear false witness against the catholic church.

The whole doctrine and false teaching of Purgatory is bearing false witness...
Here is a good thread to study.....
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 23&start=0

 

[Fnerb]

The works of charity and Love are pretty much the FRUITS because the Fruits of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth. (Gal.2:21) I do not set aside the Grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died in Vain.

And we know righteousness doesn't come by the Law, but rather from the Gospel.

The Gospel in turn doesn't require good works for salvations, rather changes us into someone that cannot but server God and his fellow-man.

(Sorry a bit off subject : )

 

[mondar]

Handy,
I promised to comment on 1 cor 9:27

1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

To find out what sense Paul could be rejected we have to look at the context. The context does not speak of salvation, but of rewards.

1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

The crown spoken of here is not to be confused with salvation. It speaks of crowns or rewards for service. At the judgement seat of Christ only the saved will appear to receive rewards. Paul is striving to receive his reward, and does not want to be rejected for his reward.

I dont see anything else in this context other then the issue of loss of rewards. Do you?

 

[sisterchristian]

Would you really like someone from the OSAS came to address those texts? And if I address them what happens then?

Also, are you implying that OSAS people never quote any other verse other then Ephesians 2:8? Would you really like me to defend that doctrine scripturally not even bothering to mention Ephesians?

John 10:28-30; "And I shall give them eternal life, and they shall never PERISH; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand". "I and my Father are one."

 

[jgredline]

John 10:28-30; "And I shall give them eternal life, and they shall never PERISH; neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand". "I and my Father are one."

You see, I knew the bible said this.... :wink:

 

[sisterchristian]

You mean the dump truck of Knowledge that he used to school you in the debate about purgatory :wink:

:smt043 :smt042 :smt043