For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[Drew]

The bible teaches that I am justified and that God sees the righteousness of his son Jesus...

I do not think the Scriptures teach this at all.

I am inclined to believe as per what NT Wright has to say on the subject. I have reproduced some snippets from a paper of his as follows (with bolding added by me):

.....Paul always uses this phrase ("the righteousness of God") to denote, not the status which God’s people have from him or in his presence, but the righteousness of God himself. This is not to say that there is no such thing as a righteous status held by believers. There is.

The main argument for taking dikaiosune theou ("the righteousness of God) to denote an aspect of the character of God himself is the way in which Paul is summoning up a massive biblical and intertestamental theme, found not least in Isaiah 40â€â€55 which I have argued elsewhere is vital for him.....Despite Israel’s infidelity and consequent banishment, God will remain true to the covenant with Abraham and rescue her none the less. This ‘righteousness’ is of course a form of justice; God has bound himself to the covenant, or perhaps we should say God’s covenant is binding upon him, and through this covenant he has promised not only to save Israel but also, thereby, to renew creation itself. The final flourish of Isaiah 55 is not to be forgotten, especially when we come to Romans 8. Righteousness, please note, is not the same thing as salvation; God’s righteousness is the reason why he saves Israel.

.....What God’s righteousness never becomes, in the Jewish background which Paul is so richly summing up, is an attribute which is passed on to, reckoned to, or imputed to, his people. Nor does Paul treat it in this way. What we find, rather, is that Paul is constantly (especially in Romans, where all but one of the occurrences of the phrase are found) dealing with the themes which from Isaiah to 4 Ezra cluster together with the question of God’s righteousness: how is God to be faithful to Israel, to Abraham, to the world? How will the covenant be fulfilled, and who will be discovered to be God’s covenant people when this happens?

.....What then about the ‘imputed righteousness’ about which we are to hear an entire paper this afternoon? This is fine as it stands; God does indeed ‘reckon righteousness’ to those who believe. But this is not, for Paul, the righteousness either of God or of Christ, except in a very specialised sense to which I shall return.

 

[mondar]

Hello mondar:

I find your answer to be a little confusing and I will attempt to explain why.

At one point in your post, you state:

Drew, dont take the knowledge statement so far that you have me denying faith results in works. Certainly faith results in actions. Drew, you are now sitting on a desk chair and I know you had faith the chair would hold you because you sat down on it. I would not define faith as believing a set of propositions alone. You could have stood by your desk chair and expressed confidence all day in the chair, but until you sat on the chair, your expressions of faith were shallow. I think we are both agreed that there is more to faith.

On the other hand, I think there are a certain set of propositions that must be understood and believed. Clearly the writers of the NT would not have gone so far with a definition of faith that denies that it is related to propositional truth. In fact frequently a certain set of propositional truths are called "the faith."

Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem exceedingly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Act 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn aside the proconsul from the faith.

I would agree that there is a subjective aspect to faith, each of us experiences God in a different way. Yet, I cannot divorce faith completely from objective propositions. The gospel is a set of propositions. The substitution of the Messiah was long prophesied as the propositional method of salvation. Isaiah 53:11 says,
"...by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities."

in the context of Isa 53 it explains what propositions must be known for us to claim "faith." There is the substitutionary concept. Also there is the concept of our guilt. There is the concept of his suffering.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows;...
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

These central set of propositions that we feel are necessary to claim faith are called "the gospel."

I agree that faith is subjective in the sense that God can lead us in sanctification in as many different ways as there are people. He is a big God. But I would never say that only this defines "faith." I would also include believing the set of propositions we call "the gospel."[/u]

 

[handy]

Handy,
I promised to comment on 1 cor 9:27

1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

To find out what sense Paul could be rejected we have to look at the context. The context does not speak of salvation, but of rewards.

1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

The crown spoken of here is not to be confused with salvation. It speaks of crowns or rewards for service. At the judgement seat of Christ only the saved will appear to receive rewards. Paul is striving to receive his reward, and does not want to be rejected for his reward.

I dont see anything else in this context other then the issue of loss of rewards. Do you?

Yes, I do. I do not see the context as one of rewards but as becoming a fellow-partaker in the gospel. The context is not the illustration of a race, but rather those who will be won by the gospel of Christ. Paul is speaking of winning souls for Christ, to the Jews, he became as a Jew, to those under the Law, as one under the Law, to those without, as one without the Law of God but under the Law of Christ. As he states:

I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of hte gospel, that I may become a fellow-partaker of it. 1 Corinthians 9:22-23

It is in this context of winning souls for Christ to be partakers of the gospel that Paul states, lest possibly after I preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

You are not saying that we can loose our salvation, you are saying that OSAS can be used incorrectly to justify sin.

No, I am saying that we can lose our salvation and that OSAS is in of itself an incorrect doctrine. But, I do not believe that any who is Christ's will not be lost, because of Christ's promises to us.

To put my view on this subject on it's most basic level, I believe there is a difference between the words can and will. Can involves ability, possibilites and things that may occur. Will is a deliberate action.

If we are saved, we are saved by God's will to perserve His saints, not because of any impossibility that we could be lost. I believe this to be a vitally important distinction to make, because a: God warns us and exhorts us to work out our salvation and b: I believe those warnings are part of God's preservation process. By ignoring them or re-interpreting them to mean something else we hinder God's Word from fulfilling it's purpose, (not that it won't fulfil it's purpose, but why hinder it) and we also are guilty of taking away from the word of God, something we are forbidden to do.

We need to remember the purpose of all scripture, including those warnings and examples, the 'nastys' as it were. To teach, for reproof, for correcton, for training in righteousness. Why? Why is it important that ALL scripture be heeded? So that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16

By ignoring the very clear warnings that we may indeed lose salvation if we become like the Israelites and disobey, we are less equipped to deal with the temptations and trials we face when the walk gets tough and tribulations come.

Listen folks, Paul exhorted us to remember the Israelites in the desert. Most of them did not make it to the Promised Land. They failed to reach the goal. So what? They weren't Christians, right? They weren't born-again or anything?

Well, consider what Paul told us about them:

For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ.

Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
Compare this then with Hebrews 4:1-11, wherein the writer is also speaking of those same Israelites in the desert:

Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard....Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.

 

[AVBunyan]

Hey folks - I'm enjoying the chats but if one were to go more into depth the two questions like Mondar started this issue of OSAS wouldn't be an issue anymore.

God bless

 

[jgredline]

Well, Drew...I thank God that you are wrong, because if I had to stand in front of an all mighty and Holy perfect God, with my own righteousness, I would be spending all eternity in eternal torment with the devil and his demons...BUT the bible teaches other wise...Lets take a look...

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

If you need commentary on the above scriptures let me know...but they are pretty easy to read and understand..

 

[AVBunyan]

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ,

Hi JG - let's dig deeper here - the version you are using says it is your faith in Christ that grants you the righteousness of God.

The AV reads it the faith of which means it is Christ's faith which does the work - Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
See also...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

It is not our faith in but the faith of Christ - there is your eternal security. ;-)

Only God can justify - not our faith in Christ. The newer versions are doctrinally wrong on this vital point.

God bless

 

[thessalonian]

Hi JG - let's dig deeper here - the version you are using says it is your faith in Christ that grants you the righteousness of God.

The AV reads it the faith of which means it is Christ's faith which does the work - Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
See also...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

It is not our faith in but the faith of Christ - there is your eternal security. ;-)

Only God can justify - not our faith in Christ. The newer versions are doctrinally wrong on this vital point.

God bless

So are you saying that our faith is a work? Sounds like it to me. :

 

[jgredline]

Hi JG - let's dig deeper here - the version you are using says it is your faith in Christ that grants you the righteousness of God.

The AV reads it the faith of which means it is Christ's faith which does the work - Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
See also...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

It is not our faith in but the faith of Christ - there is your eternal security. ;-)

Only God can justify - not our faith in Christ. The newer versions are doctrinally wrong on this vital point.

God bless

Av
Thanks for the correction....
I need to change my default bible in my user settings to the AV... 8-)

 

[destiny]

The word "lose" is misleading when referring to salvation; the bible doesn't speak of 'losing' ones salvation but it most certainly does say there will be a great falling away/apostasy.
If what AV Bunyon teaches doesn't produce a license to sin then there must not be any doctrine that does, and I say this in all sincerity.

When we look at the (whole) of scripture we can clearly see that we must perservere in obedience. Heres just a (few) verses that contradict OSAS, but the bad thing is, according to OSAS doctrine they don't mean what they are obviously stateing.

(Matthew 24:10-13 ) At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, (but) he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


(1 Timothy 1:18-19 ) Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience). Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.


(1 Timothy 6:20-21) Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.


(2 Peter 3:17 ) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

(John 15:6 ) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[Guest]

Forgive me, I will be honest here in that I did not read every post. Perhaps this was covered.

We need to remember that regardless of our 'works' apart from Christ - all our "good works" account for 'filthy rags'.

Isaiah 64

 

[AVBunyan]

Av
Thanks for the correction....
I need to change my default bible in my user settings to the AV... 8-)

Hey JG - wasn't really trying to correct but to use the version as an opportunity to teach a great and vital truth about the faith of Christ.

Thanks for your good attitude that was displayed ;-)

God bless

 

[Drew]

Well, Drew...I thank God that you are wrong, because if I had to stand in front of an all mighty and Holy perfect God, with my own righteousness, I would be spending all eternity in eternal torment with the devil and his demons...BUT the bible teaches other wise...Lets take a look...

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

If you need commentary on the above scriptures let me know...but they are pretty easy to read and understand..

This is a complex issue. I am not denying that we are "legally" determined to have our sins paid for by Jesus. What I am saying, though, is that while Jesus indeed pays for our sins, the righteousness of Christ is not imputed to us. It is one thing to be ruled "not guilty" (which we are). It is another to claim that God imputes Christ's righteousness to us. I think that this is not the case. When Paul talks about "God's righteousness, I think that he is talking about the righteousness of God in respect to His covenant-keeping. I do not think that he is saying that God "imputes" righteousness to us. He does not look at us and "see Christ" - He looks at us and sees us as we are - yet with our sins forgiven.

Here is part of the argument as to why we should not think of the "righteousness of Christ / God" as something imputed to us.

The text is from 1 Corinthians and here is what NT Wright argues:

The first is 1 Corinthians 1.30f., where Paul says that Christ has become for us wisdom from God, and righteousness, sanctification and redemption. Wisdom is the main point he is making, and the other three nouns come in as a way of saying ‘and everything else as well’. ‘Yea, all I need, in thee to find, O Lamb of God, I come’; that line sums it up well. I doubt if this will sustain the normal ‘imputation’ theology, because it would seem to demand equal air time for the imputation of wisdom, sanctification and redemption as well.

I find the logic compelling. If God's righteousness is imputed to us, then we should also believe his wisdom is imputed to us. I think it would be hard to argue that God "sees us" as having the same wisdom that He does.

 

[Solo]

But you just finished saying that it is not possible to have 100% assurance....Oh wait...Purgatory is like an insurance policy.... :wink:

Isn't Purgatory more like a Fire Assurance Policy?! :wink:

 

[Solo]

I find the logic compelling. If God's righteousness is imputed to us, then we should also believe his wisdom is imputed to us. I think it would be hard to argue that God "sees us" as having the same wisdom that He does.

All born again believers have the mind of Christ. Some just refuse to use it as they would rather walk in the flesh!!!

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth F6 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

 

[handy]

I've compiled a list of texts that I truly would like to see discussed. I realize that the texts that assure us of our final victory are numerous, but to me they do not prove that we cannot fall away as much as they prove how faithful God will be in keeping us safe.

But, these texts, I believe, indicate God's faithfulness even more so, because I believe these texts show that we can indeed fall away, that losing salvation is a possibility and that we need to continue to walk in grace or else face the possibility of falling from grace.

Mondar, I appreciate the fact that you at least took time to address one of these texts. I don't necessarily agree with your answer, because I do not find the context is speaking of our heavenly rewards but rather the gospel itself.

For those who truly want to stand by the OSAS point-of-view, which seems to me to be saying that falling away is an impossibility, I would like your insight to these texts:

Matthew 24:10-13
Matthew 25:1-13
Matthew 25:14-30
Luke 12:41-48
John 15:6
Romans 11:17-22
1 Corinthians 9:25-27
1 Corinthians 10:1-11
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Galatians 5:1-9
Philippians 2:12-13
1 Timothy 1:18-19
1 Timothy 6:20-21
James 5:19-20
2 Peter 3:17
Hebrews 4:1-11
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
Hebrews 12:14-17
2 John 8-9

 

[mondar]

I've compiled a list of texts that I truly would like to see discussed. I realize that the texts that assure us of our final victory are numerous, but to me they do not prove that we cannot fall away as much as they prove how faithful God will be in keeping us safe.

But, these texts, I believe, indicate God's faithfulness even more so, because I believe these texts show that we can indeed fall away, that losing salvation is a possibility and that we need to continue to walk in grace or else face the possibility of falling from grace.

Mondar, I appreciate the fact that you at least took time to address one of these texts. I don't necessarily agree with your answer, because I do not find the context is speaking of our heavenly rewards but rather the gospel itself.

For those who truly want to stand by the OSAS point-of-view, which seems to me to be saying that falling away is an impossibility, I would like your insight to these texts:

Matthew 24:10-13
Matthew 25:1-13
Matthew 25:14-30
Luke 12:41-48
John 15:6
Romans 11:17-22
1 Corinthians 9:25-27
1 Corinthians 10:1-11
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Galatians 5:1-9
Philippians 2:12-13
1 Timothy 1:18-19
1 Timothy 6:20-21
James 5:19-20
2 Peter 3:17
Hebrews 4:1-11
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
Hebrews 12:14-17
2 John 8-9

How fast do you want all this work done?

 

[handy]

What!?! What's wrong with RIGHT NOW! :P

Naw, just kidding. I think the list is just good stuff to study and discuss. No rush to 'get it done'. I'm patient. Just take a look at my debate with Michael! :wink:

 

[Solo]

I've compiled a list of texts that I truly would like to see discussed. I realize that the texts that assure us of our final victory are numerous, but to me they do not prove that we cannot fall away as much as they prove how faithful God will be in keeping us safe.

But, these texts, I believe, indicate God's faithfulness even more so, because I believe these texts show that we can indeed fall away, that losing salvation is a possibility and that we need to continue to walk in grace or else face the possibility of falling from grace.

Mondar, I appreciate the fact that you at least took time to address one of these texts. I don't necessarily agree with your answer, because I do not find the context is speaking of our heavenly rewards but rather the gospel itself.

For those who truly want to stand by the OSAS point-of-view, which seems to me to be saying that falling away is an impossibility, I would like your insight to these texts:

Matthew 24:10-13
Matthew 25:1-13
Matthew 25:14-30
Luke 12:41-48
John 15:6
Romans 11:17-22
1 Corinthians 9:25-27
1 Corinthians 10:1-11
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
Galatians 5:1-9
Philippians 2:12-13
1 Timothy 1:18-19
1 Timothy 6:20-21
James 5:19-20
2 Peter 3:17
Hebrews 4:1-11
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27
Hebrews 12:14-17
2 John 8-9

I will answer these in the Debate Forum as well.

 

[jgredline]

Drew
I will answer your post in more detail as soon as I am done writing it...
I started to work on righteousness last night, but it got to long and so I need to refine it a little more..

For now I will simply say this...
When the Father looks on the cross, who does he see? He sees an empty Cross where his innocent son was crucified in my place....

All should ponder this...That cross was meant for Barabbas, but who took his place? Jesus...When God sees those who are his, he sees Jesus, not us...

 

[unred typo]

Forgive me, I will be honest here in that I did not read every post. Perhaps this was covered.

We need to remember that regardless of our 'works' apart from Christ - all our "good works" account for 'filthy rags'.

Isaiah 64

It would be nice if you followed up on the posts that were written in answer to yours at least. Here is how I already answered that comment in the Calling evil good thread:

In the Calling evil good thread:
Isaiah tells us that our "good works" apart from God are like fithly rags. The actuall term is menustral rags.
Isaiah 64:5-7

Actually you are using that verse out of context. God is pleased when we try to do right. What he hates is pretending to follow him while committing murderous, hateful acts of idolatry and lust in secret. If you will read about Isaiah’s day, you will see that they were putting out a false image of following God while they were also going into the hills and sacrificing their children to idols. Today, you might equate this with having an abortion on Friday to cover up an ongoing adulterous affair, and then singing in the choir on Sunday. God will turn a deaf ear to your hypocritical praise until you truly repent.