For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[Guest]

As I said unred, I did not read through the whole thread.

I apologize if you had previously addressed the issue.

However, apart from God - we can do nothing. and even the 'good works' done - outside of Christ - are filthy rags.

 

[unred typo]

As I said unred, I did not read through the whole thread.

I apologize if you had previously addressed the issue.

However, apart from God - we can do nothing. and even the 'good works' done - outside of Christ - are filthy rags.

I answered this in another thread. You apparently missed it. No problem. Except you still haven’t addressed the issue of using the verse out of context. Do you have another verse that says our good works are filthy rags?

 

[sisterchristian]

I answered this in another thread. You apparently missed it. No problem. Except you still haven’t addressed the issue of using the verse out of context. Do you have another verse that says our good works are filthy rags?

If our works were good enough to get us into heaven, than what do you think the purpose for him becoming a living sacrifice for us was? Just because?

 

[unred typo]

If our works were good enough to get us into heaven, than what do you think the purpose for him becoming a living sacrifice for us was? Just because?

Good works do get you into heaven. Have you ever read Romans 2:6-11 ? “(God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, ( notice what their reward is! ) eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (now notice what their reward is! ) indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.â€Â

What has confused you are the verses that speak of the free gifts of God and how salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. You can never boast that your good works saved you because your good works could never undo the sin that you have done. According to the law, you are dead meat and it is only the grace of God that gives you a chance to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. The blood of Christ is the only thing that saves you from your sins and only if you repent and confess them. You could repent and confess and do good deeds until the cows come home, but unless Christ had died and paid for them, you would still be lost, so it is not your works that ultimately save you, it is the blood of Christ.

 

[sisterchristian]

Good works do get you into heaven. Have you ever read Romans 2:6-11 ? “(God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, ( notice what their reward is! ) eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (now notice what their reward is! ) indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.â€Â

What has confused you are the verses that speak of the free gifts of God and how salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. You can never boast that your good works saved you because your good works could never undo the sin that you have done. According to the law, you are dead meat and it is only the grace of God that gives you a chance to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. The blood of Christ is the only thing that saves you from your sins and only if you repent and confess them. You could repent and confess and do good deeds until the cows come home, but unless Christ had died and paid for them, you would still be lost, so it is not your works that ultimately save you, it is the blood of Christ.

Exactly, So you tell me what good works did the thief on the cross have when Jesus said to him "this day you will be with me in paradise"??

 

[Guest]

I answered this in another thread. You apparently missed it. No problem. Except you still haven’t addressed the issue of using the verse out of context. Do you have another verse that says our good works are filthy rags?

I am not taking this verse of out context. The context is clear that their 'righteouss deeds are like fithly garments'.

 

[Guest]

What has confused you are the verses that speak of the free gifts of God and how salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. You can never boast that your good works saved you because your good works could never undo the sin that you have done. According to the law, you are dead meat and it is only the grace of God that gives you a chance to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. The blood of Christ is the only thing that saves you from your sins and only if you repent and confess them. You could repent and confess and do good deeds until the cows come home, but unless Christ had died and paid for them, you would still be lost, so it is not your works that ultimately save you, it is the blood of Christ.

Salvation is found in the blood of Christ - and there alone. Once we have salvation, then and only then, can we do 'good works'.

 

[Fnerb]

What has confused you are the verses that speak of the free gifts of God and how salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. You can never boast that your good works saved you because your good works could never undo the sin that you have done. According to the law, you are dead meat and it is only the grace of God that gives you a chance to work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. The blood of Christ is the only thing that saves you from your sins and only if you repent and confess them. You could repent and confess and do good deeds until the cows come home, but unless Christ had died and paid for them, you would still be lost, so it is not your works that ultimately save you, it is the blood of Christ.

Amen!

His blood purifies us and He sanctifies us thus we cannot but serve Him and others! You do not need to tell the sun to shine. :wink:

I do believe it's important to work out our salavtion with fear in trembling. I interpret this as the following: we should be testing our life in light of scripture. We are not to become part of the body of Christ and then just sit back and "coast" into heaven.

Thus can I lose my salvation? Only on my own accord.

 

[AVBunyan]

Many of you folks who believe you can lose it don't even know what this salvation is that you are losing. How can one lose something he doesn't even know what it is he is losing! :o

I've yet you see one of you "lose-its" give a clear exposition on my two questions:
1. What is justification-salvation?
2. What took place in the believer at the point of justification-salvation?

Until you folks can clearly define what scriptural salvation is then why spend all you time trying to show how one can lose something he doesn't even know what that something is!?!?! :o

You folks are making your attempts at practical sanctification the basis for your salvation.

Most of your famous "lose-it" verses have nothing to do with justification any way.

Until you can define the saint's position as God sees it as it is expounded in Ephesians and Colossians then you need to leave all those suspect "lose-it" verses alone.

One more time with feeling - If you even get justification settled then all these OSAS-"lose-it" discussions will once and for all cease.

But they probably will not because some of you want to stand before God and have him pat you on your back and tell you what a fine job you've done down here! :-?

God bless

 

[unred typo]

Exactly, So you tell me what good works did the thief on the cross have when Jesus said to him "this day you will be with me in paradise"??

He did all he could to follow Christ, denying himself and being converted to the gospel:
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
(Confessing God before men, preaching the fear of God.)

41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(Confessing his sin, admitting his guilt, repenting of the wrong he did.)

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.
(Faith in the word and kingdom and power of Jesus to raise him.)

Now, can you tell me how he sinned or disobeyed Christ after he repented of his old ways and confessed Jesus as Lord? Looks like he continued faithfully with Christ until the end.

 

[unred typo]

But they probably will not because some of you want to stand before God and have him pat you on your back and tell you what a fine job you've done down here!

You act as if such a concept is foreign to scripture, when actually Jesus promoted such ideals and encouraged us to aspire to rewards such as that. Why shouldn’t we live our lives in hope and anticipation of the words in Matthew 25:23 :
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

 

[Guest]

You act as if such a concept is foreign to scripture, when actually Jesus promoted such ideals and encouraged us to aspire to rewards such as that. Why shouldn’t we live our lives in hope and anticipation of the words in Matthew 25:23 :
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Before a master can say to the servant "Well done", we first have to become the servant.

In other words, until we are servants of God, and He is the Master of our lives, our works are nothing.

 

[unred typo]

I am not taking this verse of out context. The context is clear that their 'righteouss deeds are like fithly garments'.

Yes, you are, but you’re not the first. I have done it myself before someone called me on it. An honest study of the verses revealed that they do not pertain to good deeds done by anyone in general and their human efforts to please God. It pertains to a certain time and people who were provoking God to wrath by their horrible acts. The reason their righteousness in Isaiah 64:5-7 is as filthy rags is because they were hypocrites and idolaters and murderers who pretended to be righteous. Read the next chapter if you can‘t read the entire book. At least read verses 2-5 of Isaiah 65: “I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walks in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provokes me to anger continually to my face; that sacrifices (their own children!!!) in gardens, and burns incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burns all the day."

 

[unred typo]

Before a master can say to the servant "Well done", we first have to become the servant.
In other words, until we are servants of God, and He is the Master of our lives, our works are nothing.

We become the servant of God by obeying him. You are the servant of the one you choose to obey, as Romans 6:16 tells us:
Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Fox_Fan]

Some really great discussion here. I have a question I would like to throw into the mix...What is it that causes a person to go to hell?

 

[unred typo]

Some really great discussion here. I have a question I would like to throw into the mix...What is it that causes a person to go to hell?

As Drew has alluded to, this belief is not merely a mental acceptance of some facts about who Christ was and what he did, but an agreement to his teaching and way of life and a following of that belief that results in works of faith.
John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
:o

 

[Fox_Fan]

As Drew has alluded to, this belief is not merely a mental acceptance of some facts about who Christ was and what he did, but an agreement to his teaching and way of life and a following of that belief that results in works of faith.
John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
:o

Sorry, but it seems like you are explaining your answer before providing it. What is it that causes a person to go to hell?

Their name not written in the book of life is what causes them to go?
Not loving their brother sends them to hell?
Is it sin that sends them?

Specifically, what is it that causes someone to go to hell?

 

[handy]

Many of you folks who believe you can lose it don't even know what this salvation is that you are losing. How can one lose something he doesn't even know what it is he is losing! :o

I've yet you see one of you "lose-its" give a clear exposition on my two questions:
1. What is justification-salvation?
2. What took place in the believer at the point of justification-salvation?

Until you folks can clearly define what scriptural salvation is then why spend all you time trying to show how one can lose something he doesn't even know what that something is!?!?! :o

You folks are making your attempts at practical sanctification the basis for your salvation.

Most of your famous "lose-it" verses have nothing to do with justification any way.

Until you can define the saint's position as God sees it as it is expounded in Ephesians and Colossians then you need to leave all those suspect "lose-it" verses alone.

One more time with feeling - If you even get justification settled then all these OSAS-"lose-it" discussions will once and for all cease.

But they probably will not because some of you want to stand before God and have him pat you on your back and tell you what a fine job you've done down here! :-?

God bless

God bless you too.

Perhaps though AV, it would make much more sense for you to reconcile all those 'suspect' verses with the position of justification you are taking. For if the position of justification you are taking is the correct one, under no circumstances would God ever had warned that He would blot out a name from the book of life. After all, I know that we both agree wholeheartedly that God isn't given to making hystrical threats to frighten us into obedience.

Listen, I've been a Christian now for over 30 years, and I've been faithful to study texts in their context for all this time. For years I belonged to a Calvinist church, and yet the theology simply fails to adequately explain the 'suspect' verses. Unless a certain doctrine can harmonize with all of Scripture, it must remain suspect.

So, please, lets not treat each other like idiots, let's study together, share what we've learned and how we can harmonize the scriptures, so that we don't stand accused by the unbelievers that we Christians love to argue and fight amongst ourselves over a Book filled with contradictions.

I would assume that you are speaking of my list of 'lose-it' verses, and you're correct in that the context of most isn't justification. The context of most is a warning of not entering into God's rest, the context of rest being eternal life, as per Hebrews 4. Of failing to achieve the prize, the context of which is winning souls through the gospel. Of why the Isrealites who fell in the desert are set before us as an example and a warning. Of the fact that we become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

(Hmmm, did I add that one to the list of suspects. :-? Well, I guess I did now, it's Hebrews 3:14.)

I didn't add any of the texts in which God warns that He will blot names out of the book of life, but they're worth considering as well, just maybe not on this thread. Head's up though, Michael, because I'll certainly be referring to them in our debate. I think our debate has been just a bit snickered at, but I'm glad that Michael is posting the full gospel, with salvation, justification, sanctification and glorification clearly explained. This way we can delve deep into just how these 'suspect' verses fit or don't fit within the greater context.

Yes, it's a jump beyond the basics, but I'm ready to leave the elementary teaching about the Christ and press on to maturity, and guess what, the context of those words are withing a text about the peril of falling away, a falling away from which it is impossible to renew unto repentence.

 

[sisterchristian]

He did all he could to follow Christ, denying himself and being converted to the gospel:
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
(Confessing God before men, preaching the fear of God.)

41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
(Confessing his sin, admitting his guilt, repenting of the wrong he did.)

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom.
(Faith in the word and kingdom and power of Jesus to raise him.)

Now, can you tell me how he sinned or disobeyed Christ after he repented of his old ways and confessed Jesus as Lord? Looks like he continued faithfully with Christ until the end.

You say he continued with Christ till the end?? Well that wasn't very long was it? He couldn't really do much else, seeing how he was hanging on the cross next to Jesus! :-?

 

[handy]

Sorry, but it seems like you are explaining your answer before providing it. What is it that causes a person to go to hell?

Their name not written in the book of life is what causes them to go?
Not loving their brother sends them to hell?
Is it sin that sends them?

Specifically, what is it that causes someone to go to hell?

Specifically, it's not having one's name in the book of life. It truly cannot get more specific than Revelations 20:11-15:

And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, the next question would be, "How does one get one's name in the book of life?"

To tell the truth, I don't think the Scriptures addresses the subject. The book of life is in heaven. It contains the names of all who are saved. But, I myself do not know of any passages which explain under what circumstances names are recorded in the book of life. The simplest and most obvious answer would be our names are recorded in heaven upon our regeneration. Hopefully, someone else around here will have a better answer.

And, since we're dealing with the book of life, we might as well address under what circumstances does someone whose name is in the book of life, can get their name blotted out?

I believe the first instance the book of life is directly mentioned in the bible is when the Israelites had made the golden calf. Moses is interceeding upon their behalf, and states: "Alas, the people has committed a great sin, and they have made for themselves a god of gold. But now, if Thou wilt, forgive their sin-and if not, please blot me out from Thy book which Thou has written!"

And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Exodus 32:31-33

One of the last mentions of the book, prior to the prophecy of Judgement Day, is Revelations 3:1-6

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this:
I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive , and you are dead. Wake up, and stregthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase His name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says tothe churches.