For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[unred typo]

quote by AVBunyan on Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:15 am

7. In the Gospels the message centered on Israel at that time and they had to believe he said who he was:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The message today is found in I Cor. 15:1-5 – this message couldn’t have been the message in the Gospels for Christ hadn’t even died yet plus the disciples didn’t have a clue about the death burial and resurrection.
Luke 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. Do present a problem don’t it!

I think Jesus knew what gospel he wanted preached and to whom it was to be sent. After he rose from the dead, he said to the disciples in Matthew 28:18-20 that they were to teach what he had taught them and teach it to all nations:

And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go you therefore,

and teach all nations,

baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Just in case you have a doubt about what teaching Jesus meant, read John 14:23-26

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loves me not keeps not my sayings: and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That do take care of your little problem as far as the snippet from Luke 2:50, don’t it?

Just in case you might think these sayings are not commands go back up to John 14:21

He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Now what is it that Jesus wanted the disciples, including Paul, an apostle born out of due time, to preach to the world?

The passage in 1 Corinthians 15:1-15 is misused here. Paul is trying to counter those who said there was no resurrection of the dead. He is saying that first of all he preached that Jesus had risen, not that it was all that he preached. You have reduced the gospel to the opening statement. You’re just going around preaching the title and the foreword of the book, not the message inside.

 

[francisdesales]

I can see this conversation is going nowhere, as you continue to ignore a number of verses that I and others have posted regarding losing one's inheritance to heaven. I tire of your arrogant behavior and your ability to twist Scriptures. Just to randomly pick one example from your most recent post...

10. For the 100th time – not a justification verse - dealing with national not individual – missed it again.

refering to : "Consider the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in His kindness. Otherwise, YOU WILL BE CUT OFF Romans 11:22

As usual, you have not carefully read the Scriptures, otherwise, you wouldn't be making such a mistake - unless, of course, you follow some particular denominational leaning rather than what the Bible says...

Here is the entire context.

Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11:12-24

It should be painfully obvious for someone who doesn't skip over the parts he dislikes that Paul is speaking of the Gentiles who are grafted onto the "natural" branches of the olive tree - the Gentiles who have become part of the People of God. Paul is telling the Gentiles not to become too haughty, thinking they are OSAS, because HE can REMOVE them from the tree... and regrafted the Jews who had been cut off previously.

Paul tells them that God CAN remove them IF they turn to unbelief, as the Jews who had been cut off already. God is not a respecter of persons. Being of the wild tree doesn't make God owe you anything.

Yours is works salvation because you think God MUST give you salvation, even if you turn to unbelief, like the Jews Paul mentions above.

God doesn't owe you salvation, nor any other Gentile grafted onto the olive tree...

Clearly, your perversion of the Gospel is well displayed here.

 

[Drew]

Again with feeling – nowhere in Paul can you find the saint being to undo what God has done

Although I admit to not yet having addressed some of your texts yet, I am quite interested in your interpretation on the following text from Romans 2 (as per the NASB):

"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life".

What I will call a "plain literal reading" seems to lead inexorably to the following conclusion: at some point in the future (day of wrath) something will be rendered to people in accordance with their deeds. One of those things rendered is "eternal life". And the granting of same is rather obviously contingent upon "perseverance in doing good".

I am interested in how you interpret this text in a manner that coherently works with your theology (which I understand to be such that the receipt of eternal life is entirely decoupled from matters of "works").

A cautionary note to AVB whose underlying principle I would humbly suggest applies to all of us, no matter what position we take on this issue: It is not really sound to argue as follows: "This text from Romans 2 should not be taken at its literal reading (and interpreted as decoupling works from salvation) because the interpretation of the text needs to be performed in light of this other text over here, say Eph 2:8-9, whose literal reading states that works have nothing to do with eternal life". The reason I bring this up: I submit that such an approach cuts both ways. One could equally well start with the above from Romans 2 and its literal message of a dependence between works and eternal life, and then argue that the other text needs to be interpreted away from its literal implication of a decoupling of works and salvation.

Having brought up Ephesians 2:8-9, how do we know that the "works" here are not the works of the law that specifically demarcate the Jew from the Gentile, and not "good works" generally? Just a passing thought.

I am not really "taking sides" here as much as I am pointing out a methodological problem that we might all be afflicted by. I venture that the real answer to all this cannot be settled by "dueling verses" - my Romans 2 text vs your Ephesians 1:13 text - but rather by adopting a more global approach, trying to discern global themes or stories. I have always been suspicious of "argument by verse snippet" - it seems that there are simply too many apparent contradictions in the Scriptures at such a level.

So, and by way of example that I suspect AVB will object to, one can argue (as has been done in this thread) that "election unto salvation", although arguably sustained by certain individual texts, does not really work in light of Paul's extended argument in Romans against the Jewish "national boast" that covenant membership is theirs specifically by "right of birth". It would seem strange that Paul would, as per Romans 4, make faith the "real" criteria for covenant membership and argue against "membership by being born Jewish" and at the same time support the notion that people are "born elected". It seems like he (Paul) would have the same objection to this latter view as he has against the Jewish national boast.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. unless, of course, you follow some particular denominational leaning rather than what the Bible says...

2. Here is the entire context.

3. It should be painfully obvious for someone who doesn't skip over the parts he dislikes

4. Yours is works salvation because you think God MUST give you salvation, even if you turn to unbelief, like the Jews Paul mentions above.

5. God doesn't owe you salvation, nor any other Gentile grafted onto the olive tree...

1. What a hoot man :o – a Roman Catholic telling me I’m just following my denomination when Rome’s whole system of bondage is built on their people doing exactly as Rome says regardless of what the scriptures say! What a hoot – too much man – that was great Francis – this made the whole discourse worth it. :-D

2. I won’t even bother trying to teach you the dispensational aspect of Rom. 11 – you are just too much in the dark in this area. You see me as arrogant – I see it as being confident in a King James Bible rightly divided. What a joke - Calling me arrogant when you believe yours is the only true church and nobody can be saved outside Rome.

3. You best be careful about saying I dislike some scriptures - you are judging here big time. Be careful you don’t lose your salvation here – tough to get it back.

4. For the 10th time - God owes me nothing but a lake of fire – But out of mercy he saved me and I am resting in heavenly places in Christ right now as you read this - while you, on the other hand, are working like a dog to enter in – mercy…what a way to live with so much uncertainty hanging over your soul.

5. Hey – we agree on something! :-D

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Although I admit to not yet having addressed some of your texts yet, I am quite interested in your interpretation on the following text from Romans 2 (as per the NASB):

2. I am interested in how you interpret this text in a manner that coherently works with your theology (which I understand to be such that the receipt of eternal life is entirely decoupled from matters of "works").

1. Still waiting – I keep commenting on you folks’ texts – why can’t you do the same for me? I feel neglected and rejected - :

2. Paul is taking one through a sort of history lesson starting with man prior to the law – Rom. 1-2 then man under the law then blends in the Jew later in Rom. 2 and then finally concludes that those prior to the law (Gen. 1- Ex. 19) and those after the law are guilty in Rom. 3:19 and then finally the cure is provided for from 3:22 onward. So, those folks prior to the law are those to whom you are referring to. That is a gray area but since there was no law then it is possible that they would be judged according to how they lived in light of their conscience. One thing for sure – doesn’t apply to this church age where the sinner is cleared by Calvary and not their works. Basically you went back to folks that Paul was talking about prior to the laws – that ain’t us today.

Don’t have it all figured out – interesting passage. 8-)

Now...about my verses..... :

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

1. What a hoot man :o – a Roman Catholic telling me I’m just following my denomination when Rome’s whole system of bondage is built on their people doing exactly as Rome says regardless of what the scriptures say! What a hoot – too much man – that was great Francis – this made the whole discourse worth it. :-D

OK, whatever. For all the claims you make about your knowledge about the Catholic Church, you know very little about Catholic exegesis and the freedom given to theologians...

The Catholic Church gives me a particular paradigm. I am free to interpret the Scriptures as long as I keep within that broad paradigm. When I read Romans, I don't see anything about imputed justification, once-only justification, salvation by faith alone, or any other such baloney, when I look at what the rest of Scriptures say about the subject. Neither did the great Church Fathers that had practically memorized the Bible. Ever here of Origen or Chrysostom? They knew more about the Scriptures than both of us put together. Their writings are immense. What is interesting is that THEY never saw any of that false gospel that you put forward, either... I think I am in pretty good company when I continue to say your gospel is an invention based on an incorrect paradigm of who God and man are.

2. I won’t even bother trying to teach you the dispensational aspect of Rom. 11 – you are just too much in the dark in this area. You see me as arrogant – I see it as being confident in a King James Bible rightly divided. What a joke - Calling me arrogant when you believe yours is the only true church and nobody can be saved outside Rome.

If you don't know what "works" are, how are you going to teach me about "dispensationalism", another phony system that tries to separate the work of God artificially so as to avoid the clear Gospel given to the Apostles. As to the KJV, wasn't that written in the 17th century based on Greek text that has now been proven to be full of errors? As to the Church, I didn't realize that Christ established more than one...

3. You best be careful about saying I dislike some scriptures - you are judging here big time. Be careful you don’t lose your salvation here – tough to get it back.

I can't lose my salvation, according to the self-proclaimed bible expert. I don't seem to remember that you are mentioned as receiving the key to interpreting correctly ALL the Scriptures. Yet, you seem to think you do. I guess the more obnoxious you get, the more you bluster your feathers, the more impressed I am supposed to get on your avoidance of many verses and issues I have brought forward? Such things as "works" and "losing one's inheritance" and the compelling case that man must obey God?

4. For the 10th time - God owes me nothing but a lake of fire – But out of mercy he saved me and I am resting in heavenly places in Christ right now as you read this - while you, on the other hand, are working like a dog to enter in – mercy…what a way to live with so much uncertainty hanging over your soul.

And for the 10th time, all talk, talk, talk. You don't even know where your theology leads you. Just keep up the party line.

But once you start claiming you are saved for heaven before you are dead, you are making God obligated to save you, no matter what you do from now on. YOU ARE BINDING GOD TO A LEGAL DECISION. HE MUST SAVE YOU! Totally un-Scriptural... God has SAVED you, but are you BEING saved? WILL you be SAVED in the end? Consider reading the Bible - it uses more than the past tense when refering to salvation.

5. Hey – we agree on something! :-D

It's a start...

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Folks are just "dying" to lose their salvation.

Are you now saying that they can lose their salvation?

 

[MarkT]

1. Our faith in Christ cannot justify – it the faith of Christ - only God can justify. This is justifying faith – his faith.

Surely our faith in him is justified and we are justified by faith in many ways. First, we were not there to see him and we didn't hear him teach and yet we heard him by the preaching of the gospel; the voice of our Master, and we follow him. He is the light that shines in our hearts. True, Christ was the faithful witness. He was indeed faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in God's house. But Jesus has been counted worthy of as much more glory than Moses as the builder of a house has more honor than the house. Hebrews 3:3 Now it says, 'And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence' Hebrews 3:6

Can we liken ourselves to the Word of God? I don't think so. Can we speak of his faith in God when he was the Word of God and the words were coming from him? I don't know. It's a strange concept. We can say he was obedient. We can say he was faithful and true. But how can we say he was operating on faith when he came from the Father and he was sent by the Father? Was he the Son by faith? I don't think so. He was the Word of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit. Now you're saying God's faith. Faith in whom? God's faith in us? Can we say his faith in us justifies us?

After the saint is justified then he can exercise practical faith in God to do things like, provide for our every need, faith in God to protect us, etc. – this is practical faith – practical faith cannot justify.

This doesn't make sense. You can't exercise practical faith ... unless you're talking about the fruits of the Spirit; mercy, love, forgiveness, peace, joy in the knowledge of God and hope in his name. Our faith is in him. But then you said our faith is useless. You know Abraham believed God. Isaac believed God. Jacob believed God. Mary believed God. Because they believed, God did for them what he promised he would do. Just the same, because we believe Jesus, God will do for us what Jesus said God will do. Hey. If you're good soil and you bear good fruit, then you can't fail. I agree, God won't let you down. It's the unfruitful tree that will be cut down and cast into the fire.

3. The context is the day of judgment – future…probably Matt. 25 but maybe even the great white throne but the saints justification in this age of grace is not settled by his words but by Calvary.

And your belief in Calvary comes by faith. Right? Since you were not there and you didn't see. In truth, the book opened your eyes. As the prophet said, 'In that day the deaf shall hear the words of a book, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see.' Isaiah 29:18 Jesus said our sins would be forgiven. Assuming you can read, he gave us the way to pray; the Lord's prayer.

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan wrote:
1. Still waiting – I keep commenting on you folks’ texts – why can’t you do the same for me? I feel neglected and rejected - :

I hate to see a grown man cry. I'll try to find the texts you are referring to, Av. Hope you can read this. I'm not sure if I'm still in 'ignore' purgatory or not.

AVBunyan wrote and can’t seem to get an understanding of several scriptures:
5. How do you explain the following:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

That’s easy. It’s a very practical verse. We are dead as long as we are in our sins. He that abides in hate, abides in death. When we believe and follow Christ, we are in Christ. He that has the Son, has life. By confession and repentance, we have become forgiven and made alive in Christ. Is this not easy to understand? Is Ephesians not written by Paul for the Gentiles? Read some more:
1:13But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Did you understand that? We are made near to God, along with the Jewish saints in one body. Cool, huh?

AVBunyan wrote and can’t seem to get an understanding of:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Another easy one. When we are in our sins, we are dead meat, ka-put, finished. Those who follow Christ, however, are made alive by the blood of Christ. Do you remember how we are made alive, Av? By confessing and repenting of our sins. Do you remember what repenting of our sins is? It’s not just making a sinner’s prayer of vain repetitions, is it. It’s turning from darkness unto light. Even though that sounds all very poetic and positional, it has real, practical meaning. Read it as ‘from darkness (hate) unto light (love).’ Love is not just a place in the heavenlies, it also has a practical dimension. We are to love one another as God so loved us. We are to put others first and think of their welfare above our own. That may even mean something so practical as dipping into our retirement funds to feed the poor and persecuted Christians being martyred for their faith in Africa or China or Timbuckto.

AVBunyan wrote and can’t seem to get an understanding of:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This has been explained multiple times by various posters. Apparently, there is none among men who believe in OSAS that understand. No, not one. They have all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Since you believe all men fit into this category, I know you will be pleased that I have applied these verses to you, even though you have a hissy fit if you find anyone who might even suggest that you are inclined to sin because of your do-nothing doctrine.

AVBunyan wrote and can’t seem to get an understanding of:
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Did this one multiple times myself. But for you, because I do love you, (tuff love) I’ll repeat it again, even though you probably have me on ignore. Satan tries to keep men in the darkness of sin and hatred where they can’t see where they are headed. John puts it very well:

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you have heard from the beginning.
8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shines.
9He that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not whither he goes, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

You see that Paul and John are together in this gospel, although your gospel splits everyone into different piles. John goes on to say there are some who feel they belong to another group:

19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things.
21I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denies the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledges the Son hath the Father also.
24Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

He also includes a warning:

2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

The luring away believers from the message of Christ, the true gospel of love and good works that Jesus, the disciples, and Paul all preached, is done by a seductive doctrine that in reality denies the words of very one they claim to believe. Beware lest you fall into that evil heart of unbelief.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. For all the claims you make about your knowledge about the Catholic Church, you know very little about Catholic exegesis and the freedom given to theologians...

2. I am free to interpret the Scriptures as long as I keep within that broad paradigm.

3. Neither did the great Church Fathers that had practically memorized the Bible.

4. Ever here of Origen or Chrysostom?

5. As to the KJV, wasn't that written in the 17th century based on Greek text that has now been proven to be full of errors?

6. As to the Church, I didn't realize that Christ established more than one...

7. But once you start claiming you are saved for heaven before you are dead, you are making God obligated to save you, no matter what you do from now on.

8. YOU ARE BINDING GOD TO A LEGAL DECISION. HE MUST SAVE YOU! Totally un-Scriptural...

9. WILL you be SAVED in the end?

1. Don’t care about your “exegesis†– I know what you believe – how you defend your error is another subject.

2. Yea, you are fine as long as you stay within the parameters the church set you up to believe. Us bible believers are different - we have to stay within the parameters of the scriptures not Babylonian church doctrines like baptismal regeneration, cannibalism, prayers for the dead, Istar worship (Mary worship), baal worship, purgatory, beads, etc. – you know…those unscriptural doctrines. That’s enough – I’ll say no more for Solo and others have covered these areas enough.

3. A lost man can memorize scripture – big deal - doesn’t mean they understood any of it.

4. Of course – why would you assume I didn’t?
Chrysostom – great preacher.
Origen – the “Origen†of all modern perversions – an Ebionite who denied the Genesis account, questioned the deity of Christ, the blood atonement, and the 2nd coming of Christ, etc.–. Oh yes, I’ve read his works – I compared them to the scriptures and he has been found wanting - a first rate heretic who is most likely in hell as we speak - But he was a follower of “the Christ “…to the point that he took castration literally - some church father you got there.

5. As to the KJV – you’ve been sold a bill of goods – let’s leave this subject alone. The KJV has been the foundation for every real revival and missionary movement since 1611 while your RSV, NRSV, etc, went to third world nations where they stayed in poverty and darkness – it is called written history.

6. There is one church – the body of Christ and then there is the false Babylonian church – which one are you a member of?

7. Then how do you explain Romans 3-9, Eph. 1-3, Colossians, Titus, etc. and these same ole verse that nobody has really touched yet?
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

8. Where is it taught anywhere that my decision is a legal binding that makes God do anything? Man can bind God to nothing! God does what he pleases.

9. I’m saved right now. Paul uses the word saved (past tense) – you just don’t want to believe it. The doctrine of eternal security s a stenh in your nostrils – why is this? Just study the doctrinal words that end in “edâ€Â.

Ok Francis – let’s put it waste high –
What are you counting on to get you to heaven?

You answer me and then I’ll give you my answer – fair enough? :D

 

[AVBunyan]

AVBunyan wrote:
1. Still waiting – I keep commenting on you folks’ texts – why can’t you do the same for me? I feel neglected and rejected - :

Sorry unred – while I apprecaite you commenting on the verses that deal with depravity the ones below on the saint's position, etc. is what I was referring to: – these were the ones I wanted someone to comment on:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[francisdesales]

AVBunyan wrote and can’t seem to get an understanding of:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This has been explained multiple times by various posters. Apparently, there is none among men who believe in OSAS that understand. No, not one. They have all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Since you believe all men fit into this category, I know you will be pleased that I have applied these verses to you, even though you have a hissy fit if you find anyone who might even suggest that you are inclined to sin because of your do-nothing doctrine.

:-D

That made my morning!

Regards

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan wrote: Sorry unred – while I apprecaite you commenting on the verses that deal with depravity the ones below on the saint's position, etc. is what I was referring to: – these were the ones I wanted someone to comment on: (listed below)

No problem. I love all these verses. The more verses we talk about, the better our understanding of how they all are part of the same entire gospel.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

I thought we did this one. Sealed doesn’t mean locked, Av. We can break the seal. Notice however that we were not sealed until we believe. Belief is not mental assent to something but a life altering change of mind and direction.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

SOS, Av. You can’t say a seal cannot be broken. That is not the intent of the seal. If you break the seal that the Spirit has put on you, you will grieve him that’s for certain.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Yes, absolutely. What is the work he has begun in you? The work of a great high priest who takes the blood offering before God and intercedes for us as we come in repentance, asking for forgiveness. He ever lives to make intercession for us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The love of God is for all his creatures. His love is shown in the gift of his Son. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The love of God is going to be especially shown upon those who are walking in the teaching of his son to love one another and forgive as we have been forgiven by God. In fact, if we do not forgive every man his brother, neither will our heavenly father forgive us.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We have a place in heaven reserved for us if we are faithful to our Lord. Those who are in Christ, walking in his teaching, have a place prepared for those that love him.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Yes, we are. When we are in Christ, following in his teaching and living in the light of his word, we are complete in him. We have everything we need to go to heaven but we are not locked in him. We can choose to leave at any time, or we can just let those things that he has taught us slip away and fall into sin and perdition, otherwise, we would not be constantly reminded and admonished to hold fast, not let them slip, and patiently continue.

Thanks for bringing the correct verses to my attention, Av. I hope I have answered them to your satisfaction. If not, please let me know.

 

[francisdesales]

I had thought about responding to you point by point again, I had even typed out the letter, but then my computer froze up, keeping me from sending it. I suppose I was meant to send something else to you.

Since we have a different view of who God is, we are going to view Scriptures differently. I have found out that posting Scripture verses for you is pointless, you will just ignore them, as long as you able to blissfully live in ignornace of the fallacy of your position.

Thus, I'll just discuss your last point...

Ok Francis – let’s put it waste high –
What are you counting on to get you to heaven?

The grace of God and my utilization of the freely-given gift. Everything I have received is a gift from God, but it is how I respond to His gifts, under the auspice of His graces, that God will judge me by. OTHERWISE, you must admit that EVERYONE will be saved (along with Origen, who you think is in hell) since Christ was a sin offering for EVERYONE.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

As usual, you have not responded to that, prefering to pretend that you do not believe that God randomly and arbitrarily selects who he will saved, based on dice rolling, I suppose - just to protect your mistaken idea of "works"...

Now, what does Jesus say about salvation and obeying God out of love?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29

Can this be any clearer?

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Mat 16:25-27

We believe these are the words of God Himself. I know, I know, you don't like to talk about what Jesus said on the matter, and prefer to use Paul's words (which, as Peter says, can be twisted towards your DESTRUCTION - curious if there is a "OSAS" concept anywhere in the Scriptures). I contend, however, that the two do not disagree, and that you are mistaken on this idea of OSAS.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Ok Francis – let’s put it waste high –
What are you counting on to get you to heaven?

The grace of God and my utilization of the freely-given gift. Everything I have received is a gift from God, but it is how I respond to His gifts, under the auspice of His graces, that God will judge me by.

This appears to be your answer correct: “The grace of God and my utilization of the freely-given gift. “ This is what you are counting on? “My utilization†of the freely-given gift? You are trusting “my utilization†– which is Francis – you are counting on you Francis. No mention of Christ anywhere and what he did – no mention of you being a sinner and Christ dying for your sins, no mention of him being raised from the dead for your justification – you have left Christ out of the picture.

You Francis, are trusting God, out of grace and mercy, to accept your “utilization†of a free gift (whatever that is). This is works all the way couldn’t find Christ in there with a map and a flashlight. All man from start to finish.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

This appears to be your answer correct: “The grace of God and my utilization of the freely-given gift. “ This is what you are counting on? “My utilization†of the freely-given gift? You are trusting “my utilization†– which is Francis – you are counting on you Francis.

Wrong. I shouldn't be surprised you twist my words, you have no qualms in twisting the Sacred Scriptures...

I am not counting on myself, I am counting on God to move my will; it's not all about me! The Bible clearly tells us, both OT and NT, that we can do nothing good without God's aide. As I said, with you, it is either God does EVERYTHING, or man does EVERYTHING. Fortunately, that is not real Christianity and is not supported by Scriptures.

Jesus said, for example:

For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven Mat 5:20

Nothing about HIS righteousness, but ours as a result of God's graces that we utilize - whether that means my desire to do good or whether it is the will to do good:

with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. Phil 2:12-13

In your attempt to jam imputed justification into the Scriptures, you twist the meaning of Paul. Jesus NEVER says anything about HIS "alien righteousness" that we must take up, or any such nonsense. What Paul says here is that EVERYTHING is from God, including faith and the power to please Him.

Your "apprehending the righteousness of Christ" has merely painted yourself into a theological corner. You must admit, then, that the faith of the individual must be of SUFFICIENT QUALITY in order for God to allow this "apprehension". But how is one's faith sufficiently perfect to satisfy the standards of God's tribunal? God accepts the imperfect quality of faith based on His grace and mercy. HOWEVER, the corollary is true, as well! IF GOD ACCEPTS MY IMPERFECT FAITH BECAUSE OF HIS MERCY, HE WILL ALSO ACCEPT MY IMPERFECT WORKS OF LOVE, AS WELL.

This is something you cannot comprehend because of your view of man as a pile of manure, which is not supported by the Scriptures...

And if you remain consistent in that God gives us faith entirely, then you'll be stuck again, trying to explain how God is just and yet arbitrarily and randomly saves people without any consideration of the person - although the bible says that Christ died for ALL men and that God wants ALL men to be saved. You have yet to answer that - because it points to the futility and contradiction of your position.

No mention of Christ anywhere and what he did – no mention of you being a sinner and Christ dying for your sins, no mention of him being raised from the dead for your justification – you have left Christ out of the picture.

Did I not say God's graces? They are given to us primarily through the Paschal Mystery and our participation in them. You may spout off these cliches about Jesus is your savior, but you refuse to listen to a word He says about how one is saved. If Jesus was REALLY your savior, then you probably should fall on your knees and start following what He says.

You Francis, are trusting God, out of grace and mercy, to accept your “utilization†of a free gift (whatever that is). This is works all the way couldn’t find Christ in there with a map and a flashlight. All man from start to finish.

Wow. You sure have problems reading, don't you. "All man start to finish". That cliche is getting old, don't you think? I can do NOTHING without God's grace. HOW is that "All Man"??? Get real. Drop the cliches if you want to learn what I am trying to say...

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

As usual, you take a verse out of context and sling it around like it is a weapon, something that is supposed to put the Catholic in his place!!! It is unfortunate that you can't correctly understand this verse, either. You think that by having faith working in love, that this is some attempt to gain righteousness? AGAIN, you don't know what a "work" is. STILL. Read Romans 4:4. Slowly. Carefully. I never said that I hold God bound, like you do. God doesn't owe me anything, even if I do use His graces. However, being in the system of grace, I don't have to be perfect. I am not subject to the system of the Law, where I have to be perfect to "earn" salvation. I am a child of God, and children are not expected to be perfect to receive their parent's inheritance...

Salvation is through faith in God and obedience to His Word. This response is something that is "not too difficult for you or beyond your reach", according to the Bible itself. Moses and Paul teach the same gospel. God doesn't command us to do things we cannot do, even with His aide. This has been the Gospel from the very beginning, even before the Incarnation, if you had bothered to consider reading more than your cut-up version of Scriptures...

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

“My utilizationâ€Â

I'm not twisting nothing - you said "my utilization" - this is works plain as the nose on your face but I do not expect you to see it.

 

[francisdesales]

“My utilizationâ€Â

I'm not twisting nothing - you said "my utilization" - this is works plain as the nose on your face but I do not expect you to see it.

You still don't know what a work is, do you. :-?

As plain as the nose on your face, God expects us to cooperate with His graces.

WE ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY God.

Over and over in the Scriptures. Also, these expectations are not beyond our grasp, as Deuteronomy makes clear - and have quoted for you... Unfortunately, your paradigm doesn't allow you to accept the Word of God when it says that God is man's helper. You have man as a puppet - of God or the devil. That is not the Word of God, that is the word of Luther. No wonder you have this complex that says you can do nothing, even WITH God. A pile of manure. Is that what God is trying to have a loving relationship with??? Get real.

I have given you a verse on how we are expected to cooperate with God - and how it works - with Phil 2:12-13. As plain on the nose on your face, Paul tells us to work out our salvation! Does that mean he wants us to "earn" it? NO! We are to STRIVE for the narrow gate.

Oh, sorry, I am using the Words of Christ, which you do not take into consideration in your theology...

Again, I urge you to re-consider what a "work" is. It is not an activity, an action. It is something done externally with the internal disposition that God now owes you. A person now expects payment for something done. Romans 4:4 says this. I have given you this verse over and over, but you are too stubborn to read it and consider it.

One final question for you. Why do you continue to ignore the clear words of Jesus Christ? He never once talks about being saved by faith alone, never talks about His "alien righteousness", never speaks of being saved for heaven as one event. Yet, over and over, we are told to obey God, to serve others, to repent, to forgive - all actions done in love. I hope you are not ignoring the words of Christ just to maintain that silly theology of OSAS.

Otherwise, you are just giving lip service to the idea that He is your Lord and King. We obey the King. Consider reading the Gospels. You will find what the King wants from us.

He that believes (note, present tense, not 20 years ago) in the Son has eternal life, and he that does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

So if you do not obey God, you have the wrath of God abiding on you... Yea, keep thinking you are OSAS...

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

WE ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY God.

I believe the saint should obey God but not in order to be saved but because he is already saved - Can I be more clear and simple?

 

[francisdesales]

WE ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY God.

I believe the saint should obey God but not in order to be saved but because he is already saved - Can I be more clear and simple?

That is not the issue. A saint doesn't obey God to be saved. That is works salvation. A saint obeys God because He loves God and diligently seeks Him. A person doesn't obey God "because he is already saved". That is not born out in the real world.

Why? Because Protestants who claim to be saved sometimes do NOT obey God. If being saved was like some conveyor belt that is activated by the faith machine, then it wouldn't be a problem. However, the FACT remains that Protestants who make your claim DO sometimes fall away. If even ONE Protestant falls away, the whole idea that faith is the "good works" conveyor belt breaks down.

Clearly, from Scriptures, we are expected to obey God. God gives us the ability to do so. Your problem is that you don't think men can choose to do good, despite the constant reminder from Scriptures that men are righteous BECAUSE they obey God.

Little children, let no one deceive you; he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he (Jesus) also is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Sacred Scripture again shows your theology wrong...

That destroys your concept that man cannot be righteous based on how God sees men through grace. Your view fails to see that God can "pronounce" someone justified because God sees the person has exhibited good "conduct", loving others, etc.

Consider the Psalm that Catholics who pray the Liturgy of the Hours today on every Friday, Psalm 51... David speaks of his inner nature being changed. He wants God to create a pure heart within him, and renew a steadfast spirit within him. He desires that God grant him a willing spirit to sustain him. Thus, man is MADE righteous, not just have a label applied. What God calls righteous IS righteous - since His Word is EFFECTIVE.

Thus, when Jesus says OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, and THEN goes on to say HOW that can be done in the next 2 chapters for heaven sake, Jesus NEVER mentions "alien righteousness", but pleasing God through almsgiving and prayer. He compares the Pharisees because they EXTERNALLY do these acts. The Pharisees obeyed the strict letter of the law, but not the spirit. They didn't kill Samaritans, but hated them in their hearts. They didn't commit adultery, but lusted in their hearts. What does Jesus say? These are not hypothetical teachings meant for the next dispensation, as you try to explain away. These are the FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW - something that men and women of even the OT were able to do by the Spirit...

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia, and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, blameless. Luke 1:5-6

In God's eyes, they WERE RIGHTEOUS. So were NUMEROUS OT figures. So are we, who obey God and His commandments out of love. God peered into their hearts and found them pleasing, found them diligently seeking the Lord and believing that He will fulfill what He says He will.

The idea that we are a pile of manure has GOT to go... to the toilet where it belongs.

Regards