For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[AVBunyan]

Hello AVB: Just so we are on the same wavelength. can you please identify the three texts in question where you assert that Paul uses the word covenant.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Context - the nation of Israel

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Context - the nation of Israel

The word covenant is all through Hebrews but Hebrews doctrinally, deals with the nation of Israel and not the body of Christ.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

1. then what "prevents" Him from doing so - unless God figures out man's response in the "formula"?

2. Even YOU don't actually believe that, because you say one must have faith to be saved. Faith is a response to God.

3. The Scriptures speak over and over about man's REQUIREMENT to obey God's commandments.

4. John is a great example of HOW we know we are saved... By obeying the Commandments...

5. What does Paul say about murders and inheriting the Kingdom of heaven in 1 Corithians?

6. Thus, obedience to God's Commandments is an indication that we ARE saved.

7. By NOT obeying the commandments, you have an indication that you are either losing or have lost salvation. Thus, the need for obedience.

1. If God were to save all then God would not be just - God is holy and his holiness demands judgment - but...out of mercy he chooses to save some to display his mercy and love.

2. One has faith because it was given to him as a free gift (Eph. 2:8, 9) and that faith was CHrist;s faith (Gal. 2:16) and was a gift.

3. In the OT under the law, yes, but today the only requirement is to be believe I Cor. 15:1-5 and then the only way that can happen is if God regenerates the man and opens the eyes (II Cor. 4:1-5)- it is all of God and none of you. God gave you the ability to respond - you in a dead state could not.

4. John is not - he was a Jew still under the law in the Gospels under a kingdom message prior to Christ even dying for sins.

5. The saint is a saint in God's eyes. A saint can commit murder but he not a murderer in God's eyes. God sees the saint positionally as perfect in Christ because of Calvary - this the only way he sees the saint. Learn to think positionally and not practically. You are looking through human eyes - Look at the saint in Christ as God sees him - glory to God in the highest!!!! :-D

6. I can see this but....

7. Now you drifted back to a works salvation - and this is contrary to Eph. 2:8, 9 and TIt. 3:5 and Rom. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Try this exercise Francis- take your bible and turn to the first three chapters of Ephesians and highlight all the past tense words and phrases and then get on your knees and ask God to show you what He did for the sinner (not what you did or do now) at salvation and then see if they apply to you personally. Enjoy.. :-D

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

1. If God were to save all then God would not be just - God is holy and his holiness demands judgment - but...out of mercy he chooses to save some to display his mercy and love.

If God decided to randomly and arbitrarily save people, that makes Him just in what way? Where does the Scriptures tell us that God randomly chooses whom He will save? It tells us that God saves those who follow Him/obey Him/fear Him, etc... Naturally, man does this with God's aide, not alone. But how is God merciful if He "chooses to save some to display His mercy"? For what purpose? You honestly think that a person who is condemned to hell for no reason other than God's arbitrary reasoning will consider God just???

2. One has faith because it was given to him as a free gift (Eph. 2:8, 9) and that faith was CHrist;s faith (Gal. 2:16) and was a gift.

Faith is a gift. I already said that. It is ALSO a freely given response, as shown by our actions. Thus, the Bible tells us that nothing matters but faith WORKING in love. Faith, thus, is an ongoing action.

3. In the OT under the law, yes, but today the only requirement is to be believe I Cor. 15:1-5 and then the only way that can happen is if God regenerates the man and opens the eyes (II Cor. 4:1-5)- it is all of God and none of you. God gave you the ability to respond - you in a dead state could not.

The OT Law was not abrogated. Paul states that in Romans on a number of occasions, even in the midst of the infamous misinterpretations of chapter 2-4. I disagree with your anthropology that man is in a dead state. That is a fabrication of the Protestant Reformation to enable "imputed justification" to fit into the invented theology. It is either ALL God or ALL man with you. The Bible doesn't make those black and white distinctions. It says that man was made for good works. It talks on and on about love and how we are COMMANDED to give it. A strange command if we couldn't love, don't you think? Paul's context in Romans 10 cites Deut 30., where God tells us that His "righteousness of faith" is "not too difficult for you". God expected His people to live out their lives in faith. Deut 30:14 ends "the word is very near you, it is in your mouth and in your heart, SO THAT YOU MAY OBEY IT!". Paul finishes Romans 10:8 with "that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming" - Paul, being a good exegetic, substitutes faith for obedience because he understands one is intimately identified with the other.

4. John is not - he was a Jew still under the law in the Gospels under a kingdom message prior to Christ even dying for sins.

No, John wrote AFTER the resurrection...

And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ: and love one another, as he hath given commandment unto us. And he that keepeth his commandments, abideth in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:23-24.

There are several other such verses in 1 John, but this is enough.

5. The saint is a saint in God's eyes. A saint can commit murder but he not a murderer in God's eyes. God sees the saint positionally as perfect in Christ because of Calvary - this the only way he sees the saint. Learn to think positionally and not practically. You are looking through human eyes - Look at the saint in Christ as God sees him - glory to God in the highest!!!! :-D

Again, I disagree with Luther's idea that we are a saint and sinner simultaneously. That simply is beyond common sense AND Scriptures. It is unheard of before Martin Luther invented the idea. It is totally illogical. A saint who murders is not longer one who is inheriting the Kingdom of God. Your separation of body and spirit, I believe, is where your error lies. The Jews and Christians of the Biblical era did not make that Greek distinction you so desperately desire. God does not look on the murderer as just. :crazyeyes:

Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9-10

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21

Can Paul make this any clearer? One who conducts themselves in such a matter will not enter the KIngdom of God WITHOUT some serious repentance.

7. Now you drifted back to a works salvation - and this is contrary to Eph. 2:8, 9 and TIt. 3:5 and Rom. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

"Works" in the above quotes refers to obligating God to pay back what man is "owed". NOTHING can obligate God. That is the gist of Paul's writing in Romans and elsewhere when he discusses "works of the law". By this concept, I legally bind God to pay me back for obeying the Law in a non-personal relationship. I obey because I expect payment. That is not the Law of Grace. We obey God not out of expectation of payment, but out of a free-will response to God's gift of Love. We do this through our obedience to God's commands - and we do this out of love. God desires a loving relationship with mankind. Trying to take an impersonal route and demand payment is not going to win salvation. James tells us that one would have to be perfect in such obedience to demand payment. It cannot be done. Thus, when you see "works of the Law", think of it as a person trying to obligate God for payment. It has NOTHING to do with "works of love", perhaps the exact same external deeds, but done for entirely different reasons.

Try this exercise Francis- take your bible and turn to the first three chapters of Ephesians and highlight all the past tense words and phrases and then get on your knees and ask God to show you what He did for the sinner (not what you did or do now) at salvation and then see if they apply to you personally. Enjoy.. :-D

Thanks for the suggestion, I know what He did for ALL men. Not just the saved. And will you then do a word search on all of the present and future tenses of the word "save"? "Justify"? Of course we have been saved, but it does NOT follow that we cannot LOSE that salvation. I have given you ample evidence to the contrary.

Also, recall that God died for ALL sinners. Not just the ones you have decided are "saved". So how come all men are not saved? If God does not take ANY consideration into account for what men do, then how are they distinguished between heaven and hell?

Regards

 

[Free]

You also didn't answer a question that I had previously asked: Is the RCC a Christian Church and are RC's Christians? Why or why not?

That's fine - I understand about the time aspect - I should have been more understanding - my apology.

No. though there may be some saved folk in there despite their doctrine.

What does this have to do with anything - there are no direct references to Rome in the scriptures - some verses may fit.

God bless

No worries on the apology -- it's not like you knew but that is why my posts are a little on the simple side.

I see your above statement about the RCC as inconsistent with your position that there are those who "shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1), where departing from the faith doesn't actually mean leaving the faith and losing one's salvation. As per my previous post dealing with your response to the verses I gave, when this will happen is irrelevant (some argue that it happened after the fall of Jerusalem, during the times of persecution; I would argue that it has happened, does happen, and will happen). The seriousness of the context supports the idea that departing the faith means leaving the faith, not just a temporary straying.

When is one saved: When they believe Jesus is Lord? When they believe that Jesus is God? When they believe that it is only through Jesus' sacrifice one is saved? A combination of any 2? All 3? Anything else?

Do you see the inconsistency in your position?

I believe that just as salvation is spoken of in terms of a past moment in time, an ongoing process and a final event, losing ones salvation follows that same pattern. It can be a very slow process in which someone gives in to a certain sin or begins to believe a certain error and, apart from confessing and turning from their sin or correcting their errant belief, the sin and/or disbelief continue to grow until they finally reject that which they once believed was true. This is very consistent with the experiences of several atheists I have debated and someone who was close to me -- whether it was through sin or deceptive teaching.

This isn't about being worried about whether one is saved or not but it is about being very aware of the reality of sin and how it continually draws one further away from the Lord. Hence Paul's many exhortations to strive and always been on the alert. It's about practicing spiritual disciplines to keep oneself open to the grace of God which keeps sin and disbelief from coming between oneself and God. Perhaps, without putting a whole lot of thought into it, it could be called an active salvation rather than the OSAS's passive salvation. I'll think about that one.

 

[unred typo]

quote by AVBunyan on Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:22 pm:

1. If God were to save all then God would not be just - God is holy and his holiness demands judgment - but...out of mercy he chooses to save some to display his mercy and love.

That’s showing partiality, not justice. God declares he will not acquit the wicked.

Proverbs 17:15
Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent the LORD detests them both.

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

quote by AVBunyan:

2. One has faith because it was given to him as a free gift (Eph. 2:8, 9) and that faith was CHrist;s faith (Gal. 2:16) and was a gift.

The gift is not faith, salvation through Christ is. Specifically, the blood of Christ is the gift.

quote by AVBunyan:

3. In the OT under the law, yes, but today the only requirement is to be believe I Cor. 15:1-5 and then the only way that can happen is if God regenerates the man and opens the eyes (II Cor. 4:1-5)- it is all of God and none of you. God gave you the ability to respond - you in a dead state could not.

Satan blinds eyes by leading men into the darkness of hate. You can’t see in the dark. The light of Christ is love, which dispels the darkness. Walk in love and you won’t be blinded by darkness.

1 John 2:11
But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not whither he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.

quote by AVBunyan:

4. John is not - he was a Jew still under the law in the Gospels under a kingdom message prior to Christ even dying for sins.

John wrote the gospel of John long after Jesus had died and rose from the dead. He knew the gospel of Paul and it was the same gospel of Jesus Christ. Why did Jesus command his disciples to teach their followers to observe whatsoever he had commanded them in Matthew 28:20? How were the believers in Acts 1-8 saved? Why did Paul write in Galatians 3:28:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And in Colossians 3:10-11:
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

quote by AVBunyan:

5. The saint is a saint in God's eyes. A saint can commit murder but he not a murderer in God's eyes. God sees the saint positionally as perfect in Christ because of Calvary - this the only way he sees the saint. Learn to think positionally and not practically. You are looking through human eyes - Look at the saint in Christ as God sees him - glory to God in the highest!!!!

That is practically ridiculous and positionally patently false! Where do you hear Paul explain the difference between positional and practical sainthood in such blatant disregard of evil? Paul spoke metaphorically and used this to explain many heavenly concepts. You are not literally in heaven right now. This is earth and we are still here. If you murder, you are not in Christ. If you repent of your sin, and only if you are truly repentant, God will forgive and see you as a perfect and whiter than snow. You can’t have the Holy Spirit and continue to hate your brother and love your sin. Come on, Av, you know this.

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

quote by AVBunyan:
6. I can see this but....

But? But what?

quote by AVBunyan:
7. Now you drifted back to a works salvation - and this is contrary to Eph. 2:8, 9 and TIt. 3:5 and Rom. Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

As you know, I have declared that works are not antithetical to the grace of God. My thoughts on this vary somewhat from what Drew, Fransisdesales, Free and others that are against OSAS doctrines have expressed. I can understand their trepidation in this area. But the leaving behind the doctrines of repentance from dead works and making a distinction between dead works and works of faith is not easily explained nor understood.

The blood justifies the ungodly when confession is made unto salvation and repentance is necessary for forgiveness by the blood as well. Repentance is a turning from sin and darkness to love and light. Just as you can turn from it, you can turn back to it. You simply try to eliminate this by saying God must cause you to turn and therefore you cannot return. This is totally against what scripture teaches. You can pull verses out of context to make your little tar-man but eventually you’re going to get all stuck up in the mess you made. Then of course, you can put ‘the poster’ who points this out on ignore and continue in your error. Your choice.

What does the scripture say about saving faith? Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. IOW, he took God at his word and trusted him to perform what he had promised and God was pleased with him. Now, if God, speaking in the person of Christ, says that loving one another is the fulfilling of the law, and that if we forgive others, our heavenly father will forgive us, believing that what he said is true is the same faith that Abraham had.

As for grace, God offering any kind of forgiveness is grace, even if he demanded that you stand on your Mother’s grave on one foot and spit prune pits everyday. God was never obligated to do anything for us but out of love, he graciously provided an acceptable sacrifice for our sin. By repenting of sin and following Christ, we are accepted in the beloved and the blood of Christ freely and fully cleanses us from all sin. But how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?

quote by AVBunyan:

Try this exercise Francis- take your bible and turn to the first three chapters of Ephesians and highlight all the past tense words and phrases and then get on your knees and ask God to show you what He did for the sinner (not what you did or do now) at salvation and then see if they apply to you personally. Enjoy..

Did that. Enjoyed it. Gave you the list of 5 of them but you were unable to even answer them. Here they are again for your reviewing pleasure:
2. Five things that God did to the sinner once he was “savedâ€Â.

A. Sealed at the point they determine and vow to follow Christ for the rest of their lives? Can a seal be broken? A letter is sealed…can it be opened? A tomb is sealed… can you never open it again? A can of corn is sealed… does that mean we can’t open it? A seal just tells us if it has been spoiled, and assures us that outside influences that would spoil it or tamper with it have not occurred until it is opened by someone. You can break the seal.

B. Enlightened to know the hope of his calling and the riches of the inheritance of the saints? This one might have power to keep you walking in the truth of the gospel but you have spoiled this one yourself with your OSAS doctrine. Knowing that you “are already saved†and “nothing can change that,†gives you license to sin, no matter how much you protest it does not.

C. Quickened together with Christ, raised us up with him and made us to sit in heavenly places? How does this assure us of OSAS? We have life in Christ if we remain in Christ, just as a candle flame has life while sitting in a room with oxygen. If you remove the candle from oxygen, it will go out. If you return it quickly before the heat of the flame is gone, it will relight but if you keep it out too long, it will die and have to be relit.

D. Ordained to walk in good works? We have been ordained to do good work if we have been hired for a job. Does that mean if we don’t do those good works we won’t get fired?

E. Built into an inhabitation of God through the Spirit? Well, I don’t know how this makes me feel like I can’t lose my salvation. If I keep filling my house full of hatred, sin and filth, do you think that the Spirit of a Holy God is going to live within me? No, only if I continue to confess my sin and walk in love for others does the Spirit reside in me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. If God decided to randomly and arbitrarily save people that make Him just in what way?

2. a. It tells us that God saves those who follow Him/obey Him/fear Him, etc... Naturally, man does this with God's aide, not alone. b. But how is God merciful if He "chooses to save some to display His mercy"?

3. For what purpose?

4. You honestly think that a person who is condemned to hell for no reason other than God's arbitrary reasoning will consider God just???

5. I disagree with your anthropology that man is in a dead state.

6. No, John wrote AFTER the resurrection...

7. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ: and love one another, as he hath given commandment unto us.

8. And he that keepeth his commandments, abideth in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:23-24.

9. God does not look on the murderer as just.

10. Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God 1 Cor 6:9-10 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21

11. Can Paul make this any clearer? One who conducts themselves in such a matter will not enter the Kingdom of God WITHOUT some serious repentance.

1. Men are born condemned already and God would not be just if he were not to display his wrath. Choosing some displays God’s mercy. Can God do wrong?

2. a. You couldn’t find this in Paul if you stayed up all night with an electron microscope!
b. God can let the sentence be carried out but out of mercy he saves some.

3. For his glory and it pleases him - Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
God didn’t save folks for them – he saved folks for his glory – Man is so self-centered and not God-centered.

4. You missed it – Because of sin he was condemned already:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

5. How do you explain the following:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

6. Yes, but what he wrote in the Gospel was about before Calvary and what he wrote in I John doctrinally applies to the Jew in the tribulation and later – You won’t get this I understand but you asked.

7. In the Gospels the message centered on Israel at that time and they had to believe he said who he was:
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The message today is found in I Cor. 15:1-5 – this message couldn’t have been the message in the Gospels for Christ hadn’t even died yet plus the disciples didn’t have a clue about the death burial and resurrection.
Luke 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. Do present a problem don’t it!

8. You just bypassed Paul’s epistles for this age and jumped to the minister to the circumcism during the tribulation where there were tests to see if they were true believers or not so as to separate them from those who were antichrist – gets heavy huh?

9. Francis – try to think positionally here – How does God look at the saint? Positionally the saint is in Christ seated in heavenly places – Eph. 2:6 – The saint down here may get into a mess because of sin but those sins were paid for – I Cor. 15:1-5 – were they not.

Ok Francis – do you believe Christdied for your sins? All of them? OR just the sins you committed when you “trusted†Christ and started on your “journey� Either you believe Christ died for your sins or you don’t – can’t have it part way.

10. Well Francis let’s run the spiritual finger up and down your spiritual spine – Do you mean to tell me that you have never had a problem with being:
Covetous, contentions; wraths, quarrels, adulterers (are you a real man? Have your eyes ever wandered?), being dissensions, etc.? Shall we go on or are you free from the flesh? Paul wasn’t – Romans 7. Get real Francis. You better read Romans 7 on your knees.

11. Now one has to have serious repentance to activate the blood! Mercy – that is some power you have there. Christ died and shed his blood once for all – Heb. 10 – this bothers Rome doesn’t it?
Let’s look at your plan of salvation here – let’s sum up all your conditions (best I can remember):
a. Trust Christ (I guess)
b. Live right
c. Obey the commandments
d. Don’t do the list you presented in Gal. 5 and I Cor. 6
e. Repent – and it has to be serious repentance

WORKS – WORKS – WORKS – Christ is nowhere to be found in your journey to redemption. In your plan all you have Christ doing is opening up the door to make it possible for you to do your salvation check list. WORKS WORKS and more WORKS –
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Francis – try to go to Paul where Christ told you to go to get the plan of salvation for today after Calvary – Why are you fighting grace? Why do you and many others feel you have to prove to God your obedience to gain favor?

I’m trying to point you to Christ alone – I’m not saying believe the gospel and then go live like you want – Eph. 4:1 and Tit. 2:11, 12 takes care of this.

I’m a lot of fun, huh? :-D

 

[AVBunyan]

2. Five things that God did to the sinner once he was “savedâ€Â.

A. Sealed at the point they determine and vow to follow Christ for the rest of their lives? Can a seal be broken? A letter is sealed…can it be opened? A tomb is sealed… can you never open it again? A can of corn is sealed… does that mean we can’t open it? A seal just tells us if it has been spoiled, and assures us that outside influences that would spoil it or tamper with it have not occurred until it is opened by someone. You can break the seal.

B. Enlightened to know the hope of his calling and the riches of the inheritance of the saints? This one might have power to keep you walking in the truth of the gospel but you have spoiled this one yourself with your OSAS doctrine. Knowing that you “are already saved†and “nothing can change that,†gives you license to sin, no matter how much you protest it does not.

C. Quickened together with Christ, raised us up with him and made us to sit in heavenly places? How does this assure us of OSAS? We have life in Christ if we remain in Christ, just as a candle flame has life while sitting in a room with oxygen. If you remove the candle from oxygen, it will go out. If you return it quickly before the heat of the flame is gone, it will relight but if you keep it out too long, it will die and have to be relit.

D. Ordained to walk in good works? We have been ordained to do good work if we have been hired for a job. Does that mean if we don’t do those good works we won’t get fired?

E. Built into an inhabitation of God through the Spirit? Well, I don’t know how this makes me feel like I can’t lose my salvation. If I keep filling my house full of hatred, sin and filth, do you think that the Spirit of a Holy God is going to live within me? No, only if I continue to confess my sin and walk in love for others does the Spirit reside in me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

Show me in the context where Paul mentions that those promises are conditional using the examples you dreamed up - Paul prsented the doctrine with no explanations nor attached conditions.

Unred - you read a solid promise made by God and then you go all over the place outside those verses to find "if's" - amazing :crazyeyes:

Paul doesn't say for example, "You are sealed but......" You added to the the word of God by adding the "what if". You have created the "What if" doctrines - Hey you might be able to patent that! :-D You will get lots of support for your "What if" doctrines. The world is just dying to prove how obedient they are. Folks are just "dying" to lose their salvation.

Later

 

[follower of Christ]

I doubt this thread will go anywhere but let’s try anyway.

I submit to you that the reason folks think they can lose it is because of one or more of the following reasons:

1. They are still unregenerate – I Cor. 2:13; II Cor. 4:3 or…

2. They do not understand how the sinner is truly justified before God or...

3. They may be saved but do not know nor understand what God actually did to the saint at the point of justification.

So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7.

Thanks – God bless

I dont 'lose' salvation, I 'lose' my car keys.
I can throw my salvation back in His face tho....its a little thing called apostasy...and it is fact from His word.

 

[AVBunyan]

So here is the simple challenge:

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7.

I dont 'lose' salvation, I 'lose' my car keys.
I can throw my salvation back in His face tho....its a little thing called apostasy...and it is fact from His word.

So then take the challenge – Let’s see if you have an understanding of just what justification is and then I’d like really like to see you respond to #2 – this would be real interesting.
Would you mind explaining in detail how you throw back into God’s face his salvation?

That is some power you have that you can just throw the work God did back at your face.
So, you have the power to:
Unredeem yourself, unseal yourself, unregenerate yourself, take yourself out of Christ, then jump out of heaven, then become undadopted, unforgiven, and about 30 more things that God did.
My you are a clever one aren’t you?

Question “Follower†are the above true of you or are you just trying to “follow†Christ and hope you get there?

Now – please take the challenge – just go ahead and give me a short dissertation on justification as the scriptures present it or is your response just going to be what you left above? Come on now – you seem clever enough to be able to undo what God did now tell me “Folower†just what did God do?

Don't mean to be so sarcastic but mercy!

This is so much fun. :-D

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

1. Men are born condemned already and God would not be just if he were not to display his wrath. Choosing some displays God’s mercy. Can God do wrong?

Again, you are ignoring my question. HOW does God determine who He will execute His wrath upon? Does He roll dice? Throw darts? Or does He judge men based on what they do? I think the Scriptures talk quite often about the last option... God does not condemn men arbitrarily. NOWHERE does the Bible say that. There is a REASON God condemns men - it is because they refuse to believe or obey Him.

2. a. You couldn’t find this in Paul if you stayed up all night with an electron microscope!
b. God can let the sentence be carried out but out of mercy he saves some.

Save the drama for someone who hasn't read the Bible... One doesn't need an "electron microscope", just a few minutes of reading Romans.

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile. Romans 2:5-10

If you think this is hypothetical speaking, I can gladly clarify your point is incorrect.

3. For his glory and it pleases him - Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
God didn’t save folks for them – he saved folks for his glory – Man is so self-centered and not God-centered.

God saves men because He desires to, not because He owes them. I made that very clear. But as #1 reveals, you are ignoring my question.

4. You missed it – Because of sin he was condemned already:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

Present tense words. He who believes...NOW... They do not have anything to do with the future. These do not prove OSAS.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Election to God's calling, not to eternal life.

5. How do you explain the following:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The Romans 3 verses are taken from various Psalms for the purpose of showing the proud Jew that because he had the Law and the Gentile did not was no reason that God would hold him in a special position, when Jews sinned. The context of the Psalms are JEWS pursuing David, committing evil, etc. They are not indicative of all men, (since these very same Psalms call some men just and righteous! Certainly, the Jewish reader would have known about Paul's sources...)but an argument that having the written Law did not enable men to please God in of itself.

Jesus' verse on burying the dead has nothing to do with this conversation, and to 2 Cor 4, we see this in Jesus' attitude towards the Pharisees, who closed THEIR minds to His teachings. Paul encounters similar people who REFUSE to open their minds to God's teachings.

6. Yes, but what he wrote in the Gospel was about before Calvary and what he wrote in I John doctrinally applies to the Jew in the tribulation and later – You won’t get this I understand but you asked.

I am not buying it. John was writing to Christians. Jews in the tribulation? What nonsense is that? Seven I skip because it doesn't make address what I asked.

8. You just bypassed Paul’s epistles for this age and jumped to the minister to the circumcism during the tribulation where there were tests to see if they were true believers or not so as to separate them from those who were antichrist – gets heavy huh?

Say what? Let's put that aside for now, we have bigger issues at hand then that stuff...

9. Francis – try to think positionally here – How does God look at the saint? Positionally the saint is in Christ seated in heavenly places – Eph. 2:6 – The saint down here may get into a mess because of sin but those sins were paid for – I Cor. 15:1-5 – were they not.

The Bible doesn't speak about this invention of "positional" salvation or justification. God doesn't pretend that a man is just in His eyes when the man is committing willful sins. That is quite clear in verses I have already mentioned and you ignore.

Ok Francis – do you believe Christdied for your sins? All of them? OR just the sins you committed when you “trusted†Christ and started on your “journey� Either you believe Christ died for your sins or you don’t – can’t have it part way.

Jesus was a sin offering. A propitiation. He intercedes to the Father based on what He has done. Potentially, Jesus died so that EVERY sin could be forgiven. However, sin is not forgiven until it is repented of. It is not forgiven in advance.

10. Well Francis let’s run the spiritual finger up and down your spiritual spine – Do you mean to tell me that you have never had a problem with being:
Covetous, contentions; wraths, quarrels, adulterers (are you a real man? Have your eyes ever wandered?), being dissensions, etc.? Shall we go on or are you free from the flesh? Paul wasn’t – Romans 7. Get real Francis. You better read Romans 7 on your knees.

Get real. I said that UNREPENTED, these sins did not allow one to inherit the Kingdom. Try reading what I said. As to being free from the flesh, we are still under its influence, since we still sin.

11. Now one has to have serious repentance to activate the blood! Mercy – that is some power you have there. Christ died and shed his blood once for all – Heb. 10 – this bothers Rome doesn’t it?

What bothers me is how you can ignore some verses in Hebrews 10 that you conveniently pretend do not exist, then give me some lecture...

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

Let’s look at your plan of salvation here – let’s sum up all your conditions (best I can remember):
a. Trust Christ (I guess)
b. Live right
c. Obey the commandments
d. Don’t do the list you presented in Gal. 5 and I Cor. 6
e. Repent – and it has to be serious repentance

WORKS – WORKS – WORKS –

You don't have a clue what a "work" is, do you. A work is obligating God for payment. I have said it enough. If you can't figure that out, read Romans 4:4. Works of the Law is trying to get God to be legally bound.

Deeds done under grace will bring God's rewards, as Paul writes throughout, Romans 2, for example. I would enjoy further discussion on the differences between works of the law and good deeds. I believe that is a key mistake of your theology.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

You don't have a clue what a "work" is, do you. A work is obligating God for payment. I have said it enough. If you can't figure that out, read Romans 4:4. Works of the Law is trying to get God to be legally bound.

Deeds done under grace will bring God's rewards, as Paul writes throughout, Romans 2, for example. I would enjoy further discussion on the differences between works of the law and good deeds. I believe that is a key mistake of your theology.

Regards

We've gone as far is we can go - going nowhere and will never go anywhere - I've sought to give you the time and I appreciate the time you put in but the issue is not OSAS but justification and you and just don't click here.

Regards

 

[Drew]

Hello AVB: Just so we are on the same wavelength. can you please identify the three texts in question where you assert that Paul uses the word covenant.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Context - the nation of Israel

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Context - the nation of Israel

The word covenant is all through Hebrews but Hebrews doctrinally, deals with the nation of Israel and not the body of Christ.

God bless

I have already responded to the Romans 11 reference and my response to the other verses would take the same general form: In a specific context where Paul is explicating the implications of the covenant to ethnic Jews, he will, of course, talk about the convenant as it applies to them. It is simply not correct reasoning to thereby conclude that the covenant is a covenant with the ethnic Jews and the ethnic Jews only.

I think that Paul is clear in Romans - there never was a covenant that can properly spoken of as a covenant with ethnic Jews. I will not repeat the material from Romans 4 (verses 9 and onward) which I think shows, without doubt, that Paul is arguing that God's covenant with Abram was not a covenant whose human membership is determined by ethnicity, but rather by faith.

I am not altogether sure how the issue of the nature of the covenant relates to whether people can "lose salvation". Judging from something frances wrote, I assume the connection is this: Since obedience was central to benefiting from the "old covenant" promises, that same obedience is required in order to get the benefits from the "new covenant", which, I am thinking, is not really a new covenant after all (even though it is, admittedly, referred to as such by Jesus) but is really the same convenant as the one established long ago with Abraham.

I think it is indeed essentially the same covenant, so I would think that the obedience requirement still remains. I agree with the argument that the covenant with Abram had, as its central purpose, dealing with Adam's sin and the redemption of all creation. God always intended that Israel would be the means by which the problem of sin would be dealt with. But Israel proved faithless (not suprising since all are children of Adam). It is at this point that I suspect some will argue that God has to now go with "plan B" wherein Jesus, and not national Israel becomes the vehicle for redeeming the world. I am inferring that this is AVB's position (note: I choose the word "infer" to be careful) - that there was a covenant with ethnic Israel and this had to be replaced with a "new and improved" covenant focused on Jesus.

I think a more coherent picture is this: In order to be faithful to His original covenant with Abram, God does not a "new" covenant, but rather needs to find a faithful Israelite in order to keep His promise that Isreal would be the vehicle of global redemption. That Israelite is none other than Jesus. He bears Israel's intended destiny of dealing with the probem of sin. God has kept his original covenant, but in a way that was not anticipated. There is no new covenant in the sense that "Isreal (Plan A) failed and now (plan B) Jesus has to solve the problem". As Messiah, Jesus represents Israel and fulfills God's original intention to use Israel to redeem the world.

Again, this is arguably relevant to OSAS precisely because it undermines any arguments that "obedience criteria" associated with a "Jews only, now discarded" first covenant no longer apply to the body of Christ. The original covenant was fulfilled through Jesus by his bearing faithless Israel's destiny. So, arguably, all the promises of what is really only one covenant are still conditioned on any obedience criteria associated with the original covenant.

 

[francisdesales]

We've gone as far is we can go - going nowhere and will never go anywhere - I've sought to give you the time and I appreciate the time you put in but the issue is not OSAS but justification and you and just don't click here.

Sorry, I thought the title of this thread was "for those who think they can "lose it" (salvation). I had thought that your discussions were about losing salvation and works and so forth. Are you saying that justification is not linked to salvation? Is a person "once justified always justified"?

If you choose not to respond, that's fine. Just curious about the change in topic.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Sorry, I thought the title of this thread was "for those who think they can "lose it" (salvation). I had thought that your discussions were about losing salvation and works and so forth. Are you saying that justification is not linked to salvation? Is a person "once justified always justified"?

It was for folks who think they can lose it but I was hoping the discussion would have centered around what is justification and how it comes about and what are the results of justification (i.e. what happens at the point of salvation). Instead the same old "what if" scenarios came up. : :-? I was trying to avoid having to answer all those "what about these lose it" verses again (have for over 4years here already - just search it out) for if one were to get justification scripturally right then those "lose it verses" would make sense and see they have nothing to with losing justification.

My motive was to show that folks who believe they can lose it do not have a solid grounding in what is scriptural justification. Then I wanted these same folks to tell me hat happens at the point of justification for if they could see what God did (not what they think they do) then they might finally realize that they cannot undo what God did and finally realized that a truly justified saint was safe in Christ forever regardless of their actions or lack of actions.

After monitoring the thread I still believe what I've always believed and that is the "loose it" crowd is not grounded in scriptural justification - Some couldn't answer - some just cut and pasted and some just tried to show that I do not believe in obeying etc.

So, Francis:
1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

2. Please name at least 5 miraculous works (there are at least 39) that God to the sinner at the point of salvation – for example: God redeemed the sinner – Eph. 1:7.

God bless

And nobody has yet to really explain my verses in light of this thread.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

They would quote the verse (maybe) and then proceed to the "what if" scenarios.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

My motive was to show that folks who believe they can lose it do not have a solid grounding in what is scriptural justification. Then I wanted these same folks to tell me hat happens at the point of justification for if they could see what God did (not what they think they do) then they might finally realize that they cannot undo what God did and finally realized that a truly justified saint was safe in Christ forever regardless of their actions or lack of actions.

After monitoring the thread I still believe what I've always believed and that is the "loose it" crowd is not grounded in scriptural justification - Some couldn't answer - some just cut and pasted and some just tried to show that I do not believe in obeying etc.

We'll see about that. It is my contention, and the Catholic Church, that justification is NOT a one-time event, but an ongoing process. This is clear especially in the Gospels, but also in Paul, who equates justification with sanctification.

Now, for Justification and what we believe:

Although we believe that justification occurs at a given point in time, we believe it is also an ongoing process, much as salvation is an ongoing process (since we use the terms nearly interchangeably). It is at Baptism specifically that we are first justified. God gives grace to an individual not only at Baptism, but throughout that person's life. A person gains grace as he lives out his Christian life in obedience. As grace increases, justification increases, and the individual is seen as more righteous in the eyes of God.

I can quote the Council of Trent "...having been made 'friends of God' and 'his domestics', 'advancing from virtue to virtue', they are 'renewed from day to day', that is, by mortifying the members of their flesh, and by 'presenting them as instruments of justice' unto sanctification through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church...in this justice received through the grace of Christ 'faith cooperating with good works' they increase and are further justified, as it is written: 'He that is just, let him be justified still' and again: 'be not afraid to be justified even to death' and again: 'you see, that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone"

The Council at this point uses 2 Cor 4:16 to express the increase of justification/sanctification, which coincides with 2 Cor 3:18. There are other citations of Scriptures, but as you can see, the Catholic view on an ongoing justification is based on interpretation of Sacred Scriptures. Sanctification and justification are two sides of the same coin, and Paul clearly shows that the two are inseparable in simultaneous applications esp. in 1 Cor 6:10-11, which I have already quoted once for you. It continues "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Chrsit and by the Spirit of our God.

If you would like, we can discuss when Abraham was justified and when David was justified, since Paul discusses this in Romans 4. You will find justification an ongoing process. Or we can discuss the case of Phinehas, whose "work" was credited to him with righteousness for endless generations to come (Psalm 106). Or maybe Cornelius of Acts 10.

Thus, while the Bible often refers to justification as a past event, that is not the end of the story. Because something happened in the past doesn't mean that an event of the present or future cannot subsequently alter, repeat, or eliminate what happened. That is the downfall of your theology, in my opinion. You see the mention of past justification and automatically think "it's over, it is done", while ignoring all of the verses that show otherwise.

As to one passage in particular that you mention, Romans 8:38-39, you are overlooking the fact that this speaks about no EXTERNAL force can remove salvation from us. Nowhere does Paul discount the forces within the individual, INTERNAL forces - we can CHOOSE to disinherit ourselves. I have already given you Gal 5, 1 Cor 6, and Heb 10. There are a number of other such verses from Paul, such as Romans 6:12-13. IF you live according to the sinful nature, YOU WILL DIE, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Consider the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in His kindness. Otherwise, YOU WILL BE CUT OFF Romans 11:22

Really, if one reads all of Scriptures and not just their favorite verses, it is difficult to buy into the idea that one cannot lose their salvation/justification because of their own disobedience. It is one of the BIGGEST themes of Scriptures!!!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I am not altogether sure how the issue of the nature of the covenant relates to whether people can "lose salvation". Judging from something frances wrote, I assume the connection is this: Since obedience was central to benefiting from the "old covenant" promises, that same obedience is required in order to get the benefits from the "new covenant", which, I am thinking, is not really a new covenant after all (even though it is, admittedly, referred to as such by Jesus) but is really the same convenant as the one established long ago with Abraham.

Good. The New Covenant is merely an EXPANSION of the "Old Covenant". That is how ALL of them worked in the OT, to continue with the final Covenant. Look at with whom God made His covenants with: Noah and 8 people, Abraham and a tribe, Moses and the Israelites, David as the King, and finally, with ANY "spiritual Jew", to include Gentiles. God gradually has included more and more people until it culminates in what Christ brought to mankind, a covenant offered in HIS blood for the sake of ALL men, effective for those who obey God and repent. Thus, the Old Law was a shadow of the good things to come - it pointed TO the New and ever-inclusive Covenant. Thus, the idea of a 'catholic' community as the people of God fits in with the prophetic words of the OT Scriptures.

This is the message of the entire Scriptures - God desires all men to be saved, not just the Jews.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

3. There is a practical faith and a justifying faith – you are confusing the two

How would you break down Abraham's faith? Abraham believed God when God told him he would multiply his descendants. He trusted God. Was his faith justified? Yes. Because we're talking about God. Was his faith reckoned as righteousness? Yes. You can't please God unless you believe that God exists and that he keeps his promises. As Paul said, 'for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek him diligently.' Hebrews 11:6 So was Abraham's faith a practical faith or a justifying faith? As far as I know there is only one kind of faith. It's the faith we have in the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's the faith we have in the Word of God. Paul tells us to, 'think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him.' So God has assigned each one of us a measure of faith. If he did then did he do so for no reason? Did he give us the Lord's Prayer for no reason? Does God do things for no reason? Does he warn us for no reason? I know there is a reason for giving us knowledge. He told us there would be a falling away and there is a falling away. In fact, there's been a falling away from the faith for 2,000 years and today there are churches that are trying to conform to the world; their excuse being to remain relevant. They make up their own ideas of equality and what's right.

I know no genuine believer is going to fall away but let's look at it from a spiritual point of view. The ones who didn't understand the gospel, the devil took away their belief. The ones who believed it for a while and then they fall away because of the scorn and the criticism which they receive. The ones who love money and delight in riches. The word proves unfruitful. This could mean their love turns to hate; they lose their hope of salvation. Now, if we're just talking about the good soil, then I would agree. Then once saved, always saved would make sense.

Is that what you mean? Consider something else. Jesus said, 'by your words you will be justified' Mt. 12:37 That means we are justified by the truth, the truth here being that our words will justifiy us.

 

[unred typo]

quote by AVBunyan on Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:21 am

Show me in the context where Paul mentions that those promises are conditional using the examples you dreamed up - Paul prsented the doctrine with no explanations nor attached conditions.

Paul was speaking to believers who understood that there were conditions involved with God’s promises. Deal with the objections to your vain assertions, Av. Can a seal be broken? There is no reason to assume the seal is a permanent lock. The seals in Revelation were broken at the appointed times. We are told not to grieve the spirit whereby we are sealed unto the day of redemption. We are sealed until that day but we can break the seal ourselves. Have you ever had a homemade jar of canned veggies go bad? If all the bacteria inside isn’t eliminated, it will pop it’s lid. Read Ephesians 5 and especially note the warnings:

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becomes saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this you know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not you therefore partakers with them.

quote by AVBunyan
Unred - you read a solid promise made by God and then you go all over the place outside those verses to find "if's" - amazing

I don’t go all over the place, Av. I read the verses before and after it to get the context. You’re not supposed to yank a verse out of it’s chapter and give it another meaning. That’s not even amazing, it’s dishonestly using the scripture for private interpretation.

quote by AVBunyan

Paul doesn't say for example, "You are sealed but......" You added to the the word of God by adding the "what if". You have created the "What if" doctrines - Hey you might be able to patent that! You will get lots of support for your "What if" doctrines. The world is just dying to prove how obedient they are. Folks are just "dying" to lose their salvation.

You’re right, the world is not dying to prove how obedient they are. And a doctrine that soothes sinful man that they have nothing to fear, their salvation doesn’t depend on works anyway is much more palatable. Too bad the Bible, Jesus Christ, the disciples, Paul and the Holy Spirit all teach that works of faith are necessary to inherit eternal life. No problem, you can make them say whatever you want, discount the verbiage and grind up the chapters and shove the rest into dispensations that keep all dire warnings in someone else’s backyard. It doesn’t change the truth of the matter.

There are plenty of ‘if’s in scripture. You just have them on ignore.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. It is my contention, and the Catholic Church, that justification is NOT a one-time event, but an ongoing process.

2. Now, for Justification and what we believe:

3. It is at Baptism specifically that we are first justified. God gives grace to an individual not only at Baptism, but throughout that person's life. A person gains grace as he lives out his Christian life in obedience.

4. As grace increases, justification increases, and the individual is seen as more righteous in the eyes of God.

5. I can quote the Council of Trent "...

6. The Council at this point uses 2 Cor 4:16 to express the increase of justification/sanctification, which coincides with 2 Cor 3:18.

7. Thus, while the Bible often refers to justification as a past event, that is not the end of the story.

8. Because something happened in the past doesn't mean that an event of the present or future cannot subsequently alter, repeat, or eliminate what happened.

9. Nowhere does Paul discount the forces within the individual, INTERNAL forces - we can CHOOSE to disinherit ourselves

10. Consider the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE in His kindness. Otherwise, YOU WILL BE CUT OFF Romans 11:22

11. Really, if one reads all of Scriptures and not just their favorite verses, it is difficult to buy into the idea that one cannot lose their salvation/justification because of their own disobedience.

12. It is one of the BIGGEST themes of Scriptures!!!

1. Don’t care what your church or mine teaches on this matter – what saith the scriptures! If justification is not a one-time event the nit is a works salvation, which Rome teaches, and this teaching damns the unsuspecting soul to a lake of fire.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

2. Again – don’t care what your church believes – Please do not assume that I do not know what your church teaches – I’ve read your catechisms and literature, your Council of Trents, etc, - I’ve chatted face to face with your members and your priests at length, I’ve even had a very long chat with someone (not sure who) that resided at the Vatican State so please don’t tell me I do not know nor understand your stand here.

3. Couldn’t find that anywhere except in your literature – baptism can justify absolutely nothing.

4. Absolute rubbish – (Trying to be polite but it is getting more difficult and being nice hasn’t worked either) Roman private interpretation –– pipe dream dreamed up by Rome to keep their people in bondage to their institution to keep the money coming in.

5. I can quote Alfred E Neuman from Mad Magazine or my preacher – no difference – quote scripture in the right context – You have yet to show me that you personally can explain what scriptural justification is – All you can do is what unred does and that is show me verses where you think the saint can lose it.

6. Basket case – the word justification is not within 10 miles of the passage – doesn’t say that - you are reading into what you want it to mean.

7. (AVbunyan gets up off the floor!) – If justification is a process then there is no hope – let’s all get drunk and stay drunk then – mercy. I’m glad God didn’t leave it up to me – he left it in Christ.

8. Oh this sounds good but….
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Prov 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

9. The only thing your flesh can choose is sin…
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
Again with feeling – nowhere in Paul can you find the saint being to undo what God has done – you think this because you are clueless of the work God did at Calvary – Rome has a man-centered salvation.

10. For the 100th time – not a justification verse - dealing with national not individual – missed it again.

11. So now I am just reading my favorite verses – No Francis, I just know what is doctrinally for me and it is painfully obvious you do not.

12. It is one of the most perverted and damnable man-made doctrines ever – to pull misapplied verses and drop them on the saint today. Justification is bigger and yet more hidden - 2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,

This is getting more exasperating by the minute.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. It's the faith we have in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

2. It's the faith we have in the Word of God. Paul tells us to, 'think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him.

3. Is that what you mean? Consider something else. Jesus said, 'by your words you will be justified' Mt. 12:37 That means we are justified by the truth, the truth here being that our words will justify us.

1. Our faith in Christ cannot justify – it the faith of Christ - only God can justify. This is justifying faith – his faith.

After the saint is justified then he can exercise practical faith in God to do things like, provide for our every need, faith in God to protect us, etc. – this is practical faith – practical faith cannot justify.

2. Yes, one can have faith in God’s word, yes – Again, this is practical faith.

3. The context is the day of judgment – future…probably Matt. 25 but maybe even the great white throne but the saints justification in this age of grace is not settled by his words but by Calvary.

God bless