For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[AVBunyan]

1. The Bible clearly notes that our moral actions have something to do with our eternal destiny (Mat 25...!)

2. Works do not earn salvation. It's a gift given. But that doesn't do away with the necessity of obeying God.

3. Jesus also states that we are to STRIVE for salvation, e.g. Luke 13, and that OUR righteousness must EXCEED the Pharisees (Mat 5).

The above 2 statements contradict one another - why can't you see this? :crazyeyes:

#1 says actions play a part while #2 say works do not!!!! :o Confused as a termite in a yoyo! Please explain.
James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

3. BTW - Why would you go back prior to Christ dying for sins to get the plan of salvation today? :crazyeyes: You are going backwards - Why not go just back and start sacrificing lambs again? :crazyeyes: That's in the bible?

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

1. The Bible clearly notes that our moral actions have something to do with our eternal destiny (Mat 25...!)

2. Works do not earn salvation. It's a gift given. But that doesn't do away with the necessity of obeying God.

3. Jesus also states that we are to STRIVE for salvation, e.g. Luke 13, and that OUR righteousness must EXCEED the Pharisees (Mat 5).

The above 2 statements contradict one another - why can't you see this? :crazyeyes:

No it doesn't. Let me try to explain before you jump to conclusions thinking you got the "other side" figured out and trying to make fun of the other point of view that you don't understand...

Salvation is a gift. However, God FREELY rewards those who obey Him. He is not bound to owe us anything for our obedience. A "work" is something done for pay in where the "Employer" OWES the "Employee". A work, as Romans 4:4 states, yields payment, a debt. Paul clearly tells us later in Romans that NO ONE can place God in a debt situation. We agree, so far, right?

However, God, being righteous (again, in Romans) can be trusted to abide by HIS promise of rewarding US for our God-guided obedience (since we can do nothing good without Him). God gives us the means to obey Him. As St. Augustine says, God merely rewards His own graces given to us.

To better illustrate, let's say that I am gainfully employed. My 8 hours of work today place my employer in debt. My WORK EARNS PAYMENT from my boss.

Now, let's say that my boss is moving. He asks for help. I go there, knowing that he is a good person and would "reward" me for helping him, perhaps some beer or something. I have the free will to go or not - knowing that my boss owes me NOTHING for going to help him move. He is NOT obligated to pay me, but does, because he is "righteous". He can be trusted to reward me for doing what he desires me to do. God rewards us analogously. He doesn't owe us anything, but CHOOSES to freely give us a reward BECAUSE of our response in obedience to the Covenant. He BINDS HIMSELF, so to speak - or He wouldn't be righteous.

[
Why not go just back and start sacrificing lambs again? :crazyeyes: That's in the bible?

Because the Bible tells us that the sacrifice of lambs was a shadow of the good things to come. But we are STILL in a Covenant relationship... Can you show me a precedent in Scriptures that says that the promises of the Covenant are given to the evil??? That is essense what you are saying.

"no matter what I do, God still owes me salvation... I once said 'Jesus is my personal savior', so I don't have to obey God. Whoopie, I'm saved forever!" :P

Now who thinks God owes them salvation? What's the bible say about that? :crazyeyes:

Regards

 

[unred typo]

by AVBunyan on Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:59 pm
[quote:fb750]unred typo wrote:I can see it. I not only admit this is what I wrote but I will insist that it is what I meant. I’m not afraid of a “works salvation†I have admitted my works salvation. Consider it settled. Now where would you like to go? You can’t escape the fact that what the Bible teaches is a works based salvation, and it is available because of the gift of grace which is his precious blood, without which no man can be saved.

Since you admit you believe a works/conditional salvation then this is the opposite of Paul's gospel of grace and your gospel of works fits Gal. 1:8, 9 so I guess there is nothing more than we can say to one another.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

Bye[/quote:fb750]

I guess Paul would have advised you to reject James, too, then.

Listen to James:
James 2: 20
But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 1:21-22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But you don’t like James, do you. You trust Paul, so go to Titus again:

Titus 3:1
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that you affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

Titus 2:11-15
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Don’t worry about talking to me, Av. According to Paul, I’m not a heretic. Heretics to Paul were those who taught the commandments of men and not the doctrine of Christ to love and good works:

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. No it doesn't. Let me try to explain...

2. "no matter what I do, God still owes me salvation... I once said 'Jesus is my personal savior', so I don't have to obey God. Whoopie, I'm saved forever!" :P

Insane - absolute insanity! :crazyeyes: You explained by using darkened human reasoning with no scriptural uderstanding of justification - I still stand by my view that your above 2 statements contradict.

2. God owes me nothing nor any other sinner but a lake of fire. Where did you folks get the false idea that because I am saved that I do not have to obey God now? You misrepresent me or at least misunderstand me.

Here is the difference between me and you "lose it" folks:

1. You believe your obedience will earn you salvation. You believe that God out of grace and mercy will accept your good works as the basis for your salvation.

2. I, on the other hand, believe my good works are filthy rags and would earn me hell. But because Christ took my place at Calvary and became my sin payment (2 Cor. 5:21) that God saved me by grace based upon his finished work at Calvary. Now - justification is settled with me - my position secure in Christ forever. Now....now that I am saved and regenerated I seek to obey God because I love him and what he did for me and that by his Spirit I have the power to obey him.

I obey God because I want to be a good Christian.
You, on the other hand, seek to obey God to become a Christian - works salvation.

That my friend is the difference between heaven.

I'm resting on what Christ did alone and I am in Christ and heaven right now - Eph. 2:6.
What are you resting on?

God bless


God bless

 

[Free]

I obey God because I want to be a good Christian.
You, on the other hand, seek to obey God to become a Christian - works salvation.

You complain that others are either misrepresenting you or misunderstanding you but yet you go and misrepresent the other position.

That aside, why do you want to be a good Christian? Is there such a thing as a "bad" Christian?

 

[MarkT]

1. You have yet to prove with all the Greek that a departing from the faith is a redeemed saint undoing all that God did –

You could say it's a departure from the truth.

a. A saint departs from the faith anytime he ceases to not walk be faith.
b. The saint can depart from the faith as a whole when he turns his back on revealed truth because of sin or a catastrophic event (divorce, loss of job, loss of loved one, etc.). A man committed fornication where Paul calls him home but his spirit saved. 1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The man didn’t lose it.

The man didn't become an unbeliever if that's what you mean. He was turned over to the religious authorities, I'm guessing, because of his wickedness. Do you know believing is work? Yeah. Believing is doing the work of God. According to Jesus, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.' John 6:28 God sustains our belief. He gives us growth. How? By giving us his Spirit. And his Spirit leads us to the knowledge of God.

Just because a man has the power to live like a lost man doesn’t mean he has the power to undo the work of God. Free – with feeling now – be honest – don’t you think that if Paul believed losing it was a scriptural doctrine then don’t you think he’d at least write a clear chapter on it?

I think Jesus made it clear when he warned us to not judge, to not give dogs what is holy, to ask, to seek, to knock, to enter by the narrow gate, to beware of false prophets. He said everyone who hears the words and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock and the wind and the rain came and the house did not fall. And everyone who hears the words and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand and the wind and the rain came and beat the house and it fell; and great was the fall of it. Matthew 7:24-27

2. When you get up in the morning a worry whether or not your car is going to start or not you’ve just erred from the faith because God says: Phil 4:6 Be careful for nothing;. Saints err all the time. Free – with feeling now – be honest – don’t you think that if Paul believed losing it was a scriptural doctrine then don’t you think he’d at least write a clear chapter on it?

I think you're being too complacent here. Paul said do not be anxious about anything. That's the wisdom of God. Jesus said, 'Do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on.' Mt. 6:25

3. Mark is talking about the future tribulation not the church age (wasn’t around then) where a whole different set of rules and doctrines are en affect. 2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Get your ages right.

4. See #2.

5. Context is the 2nd advent (coming of the Lord) see #3. Thessalonians is an Acts transitional book where the 2nd advent was being looked for. Get your ages right Free.

Free – erring and falling away and other terms similar doesn’t mean loss of salvation – that’s what you want it to say – not sure why you want to be able to lose it. Free, if you and others would spend as much time seeking to see the security in justification as you do in searching far and wide to find passages that hint at losing it then this issue would go away and you would really be FREE!

Now will you explain these verses to me – rarely does anybody seek to explain my verses:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Go for it – I’m all ears.

I see you have taken Paul's exhortations to heart but you have neglected the words of our Lord. 'But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has the power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!' Luke 12:5 That's the wisdom of God. 'The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.' Pr. 9:10 'The friendship of the LORD is for those who fear him, and he makes known to them his covenant.' Ps. 25:14 I agree with your position that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God. We should exhort one another. In that respect I would say you are doing the right thing. I would question your knowledge about some things but I understand your main point; that if you are sealed by the Holy Spirit, then you have a confidence that is from God.

God is your Father. Your garment is washed white by the blood of the covenant. God will perform what he has promised. However, I would urge you to seek the knowledge of God.

 

[unred typo]

by AVBunyan on Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:42 pm
Here is the difference between me and you "lose it" folks:

1. You believe your obedience will earn you salvation. You believe that God out of grace and mercy will accept your good works as the basis for your salvation.

1. Sure it will because God promised it would. God has made it possible to inherit eternal life. He gave his only Son to make our good works acceptable in the beloved. Read this scripture carefully :

Romans 2:6-11 PAUL writes:
(God)Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing (Look! It’s good works! ) seek for glory and honor and immortality, (notice the do-gooders reward: ) eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,
( Notice what the disobedient receive! ) indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, (look! Paul is repeating ‘Good Works!’ ) to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God. ( no special chosen-for-salvation pet ones! )

Did you get that? Those who seek for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently continuing in good works will be rewarded with eternal life. Those who do not obey but instead do evil, they will receive indignation, wrath, tribulation and anguish instead of eternal life. There are none selected for eternal life because God is not a respecter of persons. Everyone gets their chance.

by AVBunyan
2. I, on the other hand, believe my good works are filthy rags and would earn me hell. But because Christ took my place at Calvary and became my sin payment (2 Cor. 5:21) that God saved me by grace based upon his finished work at Calvary. Now - justification is settled with me - my position secure in Christ forever. Now....now that I am saved and regenerated I seek to obey God because I love him and what he did for me and that by his Spirit I have the power to obey him.

Where do you get that idea? Good works are only filthy rags if you are a hypocrite who pretends to obey God while you are doing gross and disgusting things in secret. Read your “filthy rags†verses in context for once in your life, please. Your sin earns you hell, not your good works. You can do good works that don’t deserve an eternal reward if you don’t do them out of love and concern for the person, and do them just to get praise and kudos. In that case, you have already gotten your reward.

by AVBunyan
I obey God because I want to be a good Christian.
You, on the other hand, seek to obey God to become a Christian - works salvation.

That my friend is the difference between heaven.

You should do good works because you believe what Jesus said, and that to do what he taught will give you treasure in heaven. You should be committed to the message of love one another and turning the other cheek instead of hatred and revenge, for instance. You should be laying up treasure in heaven, not on earth. There is nothing wrong with that. That is what trusting Christ is. Hearing his word and believing him. It’s called faith. We are not only told to do good works and to work out our salvation, but to do it in fear and trembling. Why are you ignoring half of the NT? You seem to be hung up on the few places where it says we are saved by grace and not works. As Drew explained, that is in reference to works of the law, and doing the ritual things by rote instead of living by love.

We are saved by grace because without the grace of God, we would have no recourse when we sinned. The soul that sinned would only be able to look forward to certain death and separation from God forever. It is the gift of the blood of Christ that makes our forgiveness possible. This sacrifice does not negate the message of Christ. Everything he said is true and able to save our souls and the blood is what makes it possible.

Let's say when you were a kid, your dad said you could play outside in your new clothes while you waited for the school bus but if you got dirty, you would be punished. Because you were a kid, you would get grass stains on your knees, and you would be awaiting punishment. If Mom takes your pants and removes the stain with her special spot cleaner, you are free from the punishment but does that mean that you don’t have to try to keep clean now? The whole point is to keep clean, not to relax your efforts because Mom can do this for you.

You have been saved by grace but the whole idea is to keep clean, not to do despite unto to the spirit of her grace. You still must be clean when the school bus comes for you. Can you quit trying to be clean and ignore the spots and not bring them to Mom in the future? No, you have a way to clean them and because you love Mom and fear Dad‘s punishment, you are going to try harder not to get dirty and be more careful not to get spots, yet all the while knowing you can approach Mom if you need to again.

by AVBunyan
I'm resting on what Christ did alone and I am in Christ and heaven right now - Eph. 2:6.
What are you resting on?

I am resting in the knowledge that the Holy Spirit is with me to show me the things of God and keep me walking in love and cleansing me from all sin. As long as I walk in the light of love, I am ‘in Christ,’ and since he is in heaven, my place is reserved for me there.

 

[francisdesales]

You explained by using darkened human reasoning with no scriptural uderstanding of justification.

The same "darkened reasoning" that you use to understand justification, no doubt! I disagree with your idea of justification, so naturally, you aren't going to understand the difference between working for pay and responding to God in love.

Where did you folks get the false idea that because I am saved that I do not have to obey God now? You misrepresent me or at least misunderstand me.

I understand that anyone who believes that they are saved once and for all and cannot lose salvation believes that God owes them salvation because of something YOU DID! Yours is works salvation. By making a statement one time in the past, you think God owes you salvation! Thus, you no longer believe it is necessary to obey God, because He cannot remove your inheritance from you. Like I said before, you think you can't lose your salvation, thus, God owes it to you. It seems to me that you don't even know where your own position leads you... :crazyeyes:

As you will state later, you obey God because you want to be a "good Christian". Sounds like it is not very important in the picture of things, to you. According to you, a person is saved, regardless of whether they are a "good Christian" or not...

Here is the difference between me and you "lose it" folks:

1. You believe your obedience will earn you salvation. You believe that God out of grace and mercy will accept your good works as the basis for your salvation.

Wrong. Go back to my last post. We believe that God is righteous and will reward men for their obedience. It is not the basis of our salvation, God's righteousness is.

2. I, on the other hand, believe my good works are filthy rags and would earn me hell.

You believe something that is entirely non-Biblical. Works of love are not filthy rags, that is Martin Luther speaking, not Sacred Scriptures. Scripture nowhere makes such a statement. It is the overly-scrupulous mind that makes such claims.

But because Christ took my place at Calvary and became my sin payment (2 Cor. 5:21) that God saved me by grace based upon his finished work at Calvary. Now - justification is settled with me - my position secure in Christ forever.

Why is justification settled with YOU forever? Oh, yea, God owes you...

The Bible is very clear that Christ died for ALL men. Thus, your theology naturally leads to universal redemption! The Bible, again, clearly tells us that all men will NOT be saved. Thus, while Christ died and His work ON CALVARY is done, it does not mean that His work on EARTH is done. He is still interceding for us and He is still sending His Spirit to blow where He wills, continuing to call men to the Father. What then distinguishes the saved from the unsaved IF Christ died for all men (as the Bible says)? Naturally, it is our response to the Gospel. In both Covenants, old and new, our obedience to God plays a role in whether we are seen as just in God's eyes. This "I'm just forever" is pure nonsense. We call a spade a spade. A willful sinner is a willful sinner. He is not just, no matter how many times you say it. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

You are not just in God's eyes when you continue to willfully sin, no matter what you said 20 years ago. Was David just in God's eyes as he was sending Uriah off to be killed and sleeping with his wife? Hardly.

Now....now that I am saved and regenerated I seek to obey God because I love him and what he did for me and that by his Spirit I have the power to obey him.

Ah, well, our definitions of "saved" are different, aren't they... You concentrate on the past use of the term, while the Bible also mentions the present and future tense of being saved. You are forgetting to take into account that we are being saved and we will be saved - OR we are NOT being saved and we will not be saved if we refuse to love.

What sort of "salvation" exists for someone who is NOT loving? Being saved means that we are free from the slavery of sin. IF you are still under the slavery of some form of sin, you are not saved, now, are you? That is just wishful thinking.

To make an analogy, let's say an alcoholic decides he really has a problem. He goes to an AA meeting and swears off alcohol. He does this for a week, but goes back on the bottle. Is he "saved"? Replace "alchohol" with "serious sin" and you may begin to understand this false idea that a person is saved MERELY by some proclamation in the past. One must put his words into action. "many will say 'Lord, Lord'... "

I obey God because I want to be a good Christian.
You, on the other hand, seek to obey God to become a Christian - works salvation.

I already am a Christian because of what I believe. I don't need to "work" to become Christian. If I disobey God, I am a poor Christian, but one nonetheless. To you, obedience is a nice after-thought. In the Bible, it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to remain just in God's eyes and to fulfill our part of the Covenant with God...

The promises of the Covenant are not given to those who disobey the Covenant. Isn't that crystal clear from reading the Bible???

That my friend is the difference between heaven.

According to you, my friend. I disagree with your understanding of Scriptures. It is based on an incorrect paradigm established by Martin Luther, that man is a pile of manure, EVEN when God is the "rider". It also ignores the multiple use of the term "save". And finally, it ignores the necessity of fulfilling the Covenant by obedience.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

You guys have it easy - You have to deal and answer just one – I’ve got at least 4 of you to answer.

1. You complain that others are either misrepresenting you or misunderstanding you but yet you go and misrepresent the other position.

2. That aside, why do you want to be a good Christian? Is there such a thing as a "bad" Christian?

1. Nope – I just quote what you say and compare it to Paul. I’m beginning to believe that your folks’ thinking is so fouled up that you don’t even understand what you believe or are saying.

2. Positionally speaking all true redeemed saints are perfect in Christ – Practically speaking some don’t do to good of a job at walking worthy of the vocation wherewith they have been called - Eph. 4:1.

BTW Free – why haven’t you commented on the verses I asked you to explain? Double standard here – You asked me to comment on your verses and I did yet I ask you to comment on mine and you don’t – I am not impressed.

1. I see you have taken Paul's exhortations to heart

2. but you have neglected the words of our Lord.

1. I see you follow Christ while he teaches the law in the Gospels and then disobey Christ when he told you to consider Paul to get understanding in all things.
I see you like the law in the Gospels but not the advanced revelation of the gospel of grace that Christ gave Paul to teach to the Gentiles and body of Christ.
I see you have little understanding of Paul and it is much easier for you to do the law as Christ commanded as opposed to being what Paul called you to be. Doing gets you a pat on the back and a lost man can do things he is told to do. You are hoping to get a big pat on the back from God huh? Don’t hold your breath..

2. I do not neglect – I know what doctrinally is for those folks back in the Gospels vs. what doctrine is for me today in the body of Christ today. According to Matt. 20:20 and Matt 23:1-3 Christ told them to keep the law – Do you keep the OT law as they were commanded?

As long as I walk in the light of love, I am ‘in Christ,’ and since he is in heaven, my place is reserved for me there.

Referring to this because here the poster is admitting they are counting on their walk (works of righteousness – which is contrary to Tit. 3:5) to get them seated and stay seated in Christ.

Folks I have eternal life right now and what I do or fail to do from the point that I was sealed will not change my standing. Now, I will post your standard response for you: “Then you just believe you can sin all you want and still remain seated in Christ! You just believe it is ok to live in sin!†There – that saved you some time.

1. I understand that anyone who believes that they are saved once and for all and cannot lose salvation believes that God owes them salvation because of something YOU DID! Yours is works salvation. By making a statement one time in the past, you think God owes you salvation!

2. Thus, you no longer believe it is necessary to obey God, because He cannot remove your inheritance from you.

3. According to you, a person is saved, regardless of whether they are a "good Christian" or not...

4. Works of love are not filthy rags,

5. a. Why is justification settled with YOU forever? b. Oh, yea, God owes you...

6. Thus, your theology naturally leads to universal redemption!

7. You are not just in God's eyes when you continue to willfully sin, no matter what you said 20 years ago.

8. Was David just in God's eyes as he was sending Uriah off to be killed and sleeping with his wife?

9. Being saved means that we are free from the slavery of sin.

10. The promises of the Covenant are not given to those who disobey the Covenant. Isn't that crystal clear from reading the Bible???

1. Will you please show me what you say I did that leads you to believe that because of whatever I did God owes me something? How can Paul’s gospel (Which I believe) be a works salvation when I believe there is nothing I can do to get this salvation!?!?!?

2. Show me where I said it is not necessary to obey God – you can’t. What I said, but you can’t get it, is…my obedience to his commandments does not grant me entrance to eternal life. A dead man (lost) can’t obey God to get anything from God. As a saved man I obey God out of love because I have the spirit in me that has been made alive unto God. My obedience (unless to the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5) didn’t save me and my disobedience will not cause me to be cast away – if that were the case nobody will get eternal life!

3. You got that right – saint is a saint. But you do good things so you deserve eternal life don’t you – because you obey therefore you earn eternal life – my what a fine fella you are – I’m sure God is real impressed with you and you obedience!

4. Works of love are filthy rags if done as a lost person to obtain favor with God.

5. a. Because what God did for me and other saved folk is done forever – sealed for eternity. b. God owes me nothing but hell – out of grace he saved m. Quit twisting my words.

6. Thus your view of what I believe is twisted. I believe all born dead and damned to hell – God in mercy has chosen to save some because it pleased him.

7. I’m in Christ right now in heaven and will stay there no matter what I do or do not do – You don’t like that d you? It is because you do not understand grace.

8. David was not secure in the body of Christ – I am. Try living in the light of Pauline truth instead of OT law for a change.

9. Being saved means that we are free from the penalty of sin. Do you still sin? I do but because of the Spirit I now have the power to say no.

10. I am not under a Jewish covenant – sounds like you are though – better not break whatever covenant you made up or you’ll lose it and….according to your damnable theology you can’t know if you will make until you make- -You are just hoping that you don’t blow it – how sad.

Later

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan wrote:

[quote:be514]unred typo wrote:As long as I walk in the light of love, I am ‘in Christ,’ and since he is in heaven, my place is reserved for me there.

Referring to this because here the poster is admitting they are counting on their walk (works of righteousness – which is contrary to Tit. 3:5) to get them seated and stay seated in Christ.[/quote:be514]


Why is being required to walk in the light of love and good works contrary to
Titus 3:5?

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This says that it was not because of our works of righteousness that God saved us but because of his mercy. Works of righteousness cannot undo the sin we committed. You could not do any amount of good deeds that would pay for your sin. Only the blood of Christ can do that and only if you confess and forsake your sin will it be applied to you. God will not acquit the wicked, but will only apply his Son’s sacrifice to those, who by patient continuance in doing good, seek the reward promised by God to those who believe and follow Christ. If you confess your sin, he is faithful and just to forgive your sin and cleanse you from all unrighteousness, and if you walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Christ will continue to keep you washed, not because you deserve it but because of his love and mercy. Get it?

 

[Drew]

You guys have it easy - You have to deal and answer just one – I’ve got at least 4 of you to answer.

True enough. At present, you are having to counterargue against multiple posters.

10. The promises of the Covenant are not given to those who disobey the Covenant. Isn't that crystal clear from reading the Bible???

10. I am not under a Jewish covenant – sounds like you are though – better not break whatever covenant you made up or you’ll lose it and….according to your damnable theology you can’t know if you will make until you make- -You are just hoping that you don’t blow it – how sad.

Although my thoughts on some of this are evolving as we speak, I think that there really never was a covenant with the ethnic Jews in the first place. If I understand Paul correctly, he argues in Romans 4 to the effect that it is mistaken to think that God viewed the ethnic Jews as having "their own covenant"- instead, membership in the covenant did not turn on being ethnically Jewish, but rather on having faith. In the following, I both highlight in bold and add my own amplifyng comments, reflecting my own understanding of what is going on:

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised [***covenant membership not a matter of 'ethnic Jewishness']. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised [***strongly suggests that there really is no "Jewish" covenant], in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through law [***the laws that demarcate the Jews from the Gentiles] that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith [***covenant members are not determined by being 'born Jewish', but by faith - there really is no covenant specific to the Jews]. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." [***suggests that the covenant has no "Jewish" specificity but embraces all nations] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believedâ€â€the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

Here is some material from NT Wright that I believe is also relevant to this issue of whether there really was a "Jewish" covenant.

In recognizing Jesus as Messiah (‘Christ’ in Gk.), i.e. as the one in whom God’s purposes for Israel had been summed up, Paul was compelled to rethink the place of Israel, and of her law, in God’s over-all purposes. Unless God had changed his plans (which was unthinkable), that which had happened in Christ must have been God’s intention all along. The cross and resurrection gave Paul the clue: since the Messiah represents Israel, Israel herself must ‘die’ and be ‘raised’ (Gal. 2:15-21). Reading the Scriptures again with this in mind, Paul discovered that, in the very passage where the covenant promises were first made (Gn. 15), two themes stood out: God’s desire that ‘all nations’ should share in the blessing of Abraham, and the faith of Abraham as the sign that he was indeed God’s covenant partner (Rom. 4; Gal. 3). But this meant that Israel’s understanding of her role in God’s plan had been wrong. She had mistaken a temporary stage in the plan (her land, her law and her ethnic privileges) for the final purpose itself. The law, however, although coming from God and reflecting his holiness, could not be the means of life, because of sin. But now Christ, not Israel, took centre stage: and in Christ, God’s plan for a worldwide family was being enacted. Israel’s political enemies were merely a metaphor or symbol for the real enemies of God, namely sin and death (1 Cor. 15:26, 56), which held sway over not merely Israel but the whole world.

My conclusion in respect to frances' post and AVB's response: it appears that the conditionality of the covenant promises on obedience is sustained precisely because there never was a separate covenant, specific to Jews, that we can allocate such conditionality to, thereby removing any implications for us. It applies to all of us.

 

[Free]

Positionally speaking all true redeemed saints are perfect in Christ

What do you mean? Before you shoot me down for not knowing what you mean, the reason I ask is because in Phillipians 3:12 Paul states that he isn't perfect yet.

Phil. 3:11-14 "11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

BTW Free – why haven’t you commented on the verses I asked you to explain? Double standard here – You asked me to comment on your verses and I did yet I ask you to comment on mine and you don’t – I am not impressed.

I just don't have the time right now and Drew is doing a fine job commenting on your verses. Your response to my verses was far from adequate, as my previous post states.

You also didn't answer a question that I had previously asked: Is the RCC a Christian Church and are RC's Christians? Why or why not?

 

[AVBunyan]

You also didn't answer a question that I had previously asked: Is the RCC a Christian Church and are RC's Christians? Why or why not?

That's fine - I understand about the time aspect - I should have been more understanding - my apology.

No. though there may be some saved folk in there despite their doctrine.

What does this have to do with anything - there are no direct references to Rome in the scriptures - some verses may fit.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

My conclusion in respect to frances' post and AVB's response: it appears that the conditionality of the covenant promises on obedience is sustained precisely because there never was a separate covenant, specific to Jews, that we can allocate such conditionality to, thereby removing any implications for us. It applies to all of us.

Ok then - please explain why the word is used only three times (out of 282 total in the bible) in Paul's epistles and then explain the context of each of those three references - has nothing to do with the body of Christ.

God bless

 

[Drew]

My conclusion in respect to frances' post and AVB's response: it appears that the conditionality of the covenant promises on obedience is sustained precisely because there never was a separate covenant, specific to Jews, that we can allocate such conditionality to, thereby removing any implications for us. It applies to all of us.

Ok then - please explain why the word is used only three times (out of 282 total in the bible) in Paul's epistles and then explain the context of each of those three references - has nothing to do with the body of Christ.

God bless

When you write "please explain why the word is used....", what word in particular are you referring to?

 

[AVBunyan]

When you write "please explain why the word is used....", what word in particular are you referring to?

Covenant 8-)

BTW - Either I missed it or it appears that nobody has commented on these yet:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

God bless

 

[Drew]

Hello AVB: Just so we are on the same wavelength. can you please identify the three texts in question where you assert that Paul uses the word covenant. I suspect that one of them will be Romans 11:26-27

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

This statement is made within a context where Paul specifically focuses in on the status of the Jews. The very first statement in chapter 11 is:

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be!

I think it is entirely reasonable to argue as follows: while indeed Paul refers in verse 27 to the Jews in particular, he does so having already established that the Jews are indeed the topic at hand. We would therefore expect him to talk about the covenant as it specifically pertains to the Jews, even if the covenant itself is not grounded in Jewish ethnicity.

Consider an analogy. Suppose that a Mexican incarnation of Paul is writing about a belief that someone named Fred has promised to give 10 dollars to each Mexican (a covenant between Fred and Mexicans). Mexican Paul could have indeed previously established that the covenant was really between Fred and all people (not just Mexicans) who had faith in Fred. He is now talking about the specific situation with the Mexicans and in verse 27, he states "This is Fred's covenant with Mexicans - he will give them 10 dollars".

Here Mexican Paul is simply pointing out that while "being Mexican" is not the basis of the covenant, those who are, in fact, Mexican are indeed included within the covenant just like anybody else who has faith in the promises of Fred.

So I do not really see how Romans 11:27 does any damage to the position that God never really had a covenant with the Jews as an ethnic nation. In a context where Paul is specifically addressing the status of ethnic Jews, we would naturally expect him to talk about the covenant's relation to them. This does not, of course, mean that he is intending to express that the covenant implies only to the ethnic Jews.

 

[francisdesales]

You also didn't answer a question that I had previously asked: Is the RCC a Christian Church and are RC's Christians? Why or why not?

No. though there may be some saved folk in there despite their doctrine.

What does this have to do with anything - there are no direct references to Rome in the scriptures - some verses may fit.

What is your definition of a "Christian church"? If it has to have direct references to it in the Bible, then that leaves out any specific denomination, since they all followed after 1500.

A Christian community is one that proclaims Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord (God). The Catholic Church does that, it is a follower of Christ. I am not sure what your yardstick is that determines that the Catholic Church is NOT a follower of Christ or Christian - I would be interested in hearing your explanation.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

1. Will you please show me what you say I did that leads you to believe that because of whatever I did God owes me something? How can Paul’s gospel (Which I believe) be a works salvation when I believe there is nothing I can do to get this salvation!?!?!?

If God desires to save ALL men, then what "prevents" Him from doing so - unless God figures out man's response in the "formula"? Thus, if being saved is equated to nothing that you have done, you make God into a liar AND one who randomly and arbitrarily choosing whom he will save. This is not the God of the Bible. Even YOU don't actually believe that, because you say one must have faith to be saved. Faith is a response to God.

The Scriptures speak over and over about man's REQUIREMENT to obey God's commandments. It is part of the Covenant agreement between God's people and Himself. Does this change in the NT? Has God's ways changed from the OT to the NT? No, it has expanded to include more people, it has become more defined to explain the "spiritual Jew", but none of this abrogates obedience to the Covenant.

John is a great example of HOW we know we are saved... By obeying the Commandments... Thus, obedience has NEVER been an option. It doesn't EARN us salvation, but without obedience, we LOSE our salvation. Salvation is freely given, and CAN be lost by us. Thus, OSAS is false security, the idea that God OWES you salvation. Does God owe salvation to an Adolf Hitler, who perhaps accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior and then became a mass murderer? What does Paul say about murders and inheriting the Kingdom of heaven in 1 Corithians?

Thus, obedience to God's Commandments is an indication that we ARE saved. By NOT obeying the commandments, you have an indication that you are either losing or have lost salvation. Thus, the need for obedience. It doesn't earn anything, but it indicates whether you have thrown it away or not.

Does this make better sense?

If you decide to engage me in deeper conversation, I will happily oblige - but I understand that you are responding to several people. I fully know the feeling, responding to MANY people in the RCC discussion group.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

What is your definition of a "Christian church"? If it has to have direct references to it in the Bible, then that leaves out any specific denomination, since they all followed after 1500.

Honestly Francis - Free asked a question and I answered - don't want to change the direction of the thread and the Roman issue has been beat to death here. You and I disagree on Rome so let's leave it alone, shall we?

God bless