For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[unred typo]

Sorry, but it seems like you are explaining your answer before providing it. What is it that causes a person to go to hell?

Their name not written in the book of life is what causes them to go?
Not loving their brother sends them to hell?
Is it sin that sends them?

Specifically, what is it that causes someone to go to hell?

I’m not a judge, I’m not even a doctor of theology. (sorry, having a trekky moment) I’m not God. He is the judge who will decide what sends a person to hell, when they should die, whether a person deserves to be rewarded with eternal life and what determines their eternal fate. There are side effects to sin. Jesus has warned us of the possibilities and provided the cure. We can only search the scriptures and follow the instructions on the label. When it says, Forgive or neither will your heavenly father forgive you, what specifically does that mean?

 

[unred typo]

You say he continued with Christ till the end?? Well that wasn't very long was it? He couldn't really do much else, seeing how he was hanging on the cross next to Jesus! :-?

You noticed. I was afraid that fact escaped you. Somehow I believe that a God of love and mercy would take that into account and make allowances. Do you think the same rules should apply to everyone regardless of circumstances? Maybe you would prefer being nailed to a cross to earn your reward, instead of having to love one another and live according to love and mercy. Our crosses to bear are not as painfully short as his was, but I have a feeling you wouldn’t trade places.

Do you realize that his performance on his last day are not the only good/bad deeds for which he will no doubt be judged by? Jesus knew of his whole life and knew his circumstances and most importantly, his heart. Your problem is that you believe in a fictitious gospel where in a moment of belief, everything of your past vanishes and nothing done before (or even after?) this point counts. I think it is more biblical to see that we suffer the consequences of sin unless God spares us. And that call is his, btw. Rough knowing that he is in ultimate control and we don’t make the rules and even know most of them, ain’t it? That‘s where trust and obey comes in handy, huh? Faith in God, we call it. Without faith it is impossible to please him....

 

[unred typo]

Specifically, it's not having one's name in the book of life. It truly cannot get more specific than Revelations 20:11-15:

And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, the next question would be, "How does one get one's name in the book of life?"

To tell the truth, I don't think the Scriptures addresses the subject. The book of life is in heaven. It contains the names of all who are saved. But, I myself do not know of any passages which explain under what circumstances names are recorded in the book of life. The simplest and most obvious answer would be our names are recorded in heaven upon our regeneration. Hopefully, someone else around here will have a better answer.

And, since we're dealing with the book of life, we might as well address under what circumstances does someone whose name is in the book of life, can get their name blotted out?

I believe the first instance the book of life is directly mentioned in the bible is when the Israelites had made the golden calf. Moses is interceeding upon their behalf, and states: "Alas, the people has committed a great sin, and they have made for themselves a god of gold. But now, if Thou wilt, forgive their sin-and if not, please blot me out from Thy book which Thou has written!"

And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Exodus 32:31-33

One of the last mentions of the book, prior to the prophecy of Judgement Day, is Revelations 3:1-6

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this:
I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive , and you are dead. Wake up, and stregthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase His name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says tothe churches.

Good read, handy. Here is an intriguing verse that might shed some light on this subject: Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Your thoughts?

 

[Drew]

Many of you folks who believe you can lose it don't even know what this salvation is that you are losing. How can one lose something he doesn't even know what it is he is losing! :o

I've yet you see one of you "lose-its" give a clear exposition on my two questions:
1. What is justification-salvation?
2. What took place in the believer at the point of justification-salvation?

I do indeed believe that we can "lose our salvation".

I hope to take a crack at these specific questions but may not be able to get to it for a couple of days or so.

 

[lovely]

Hi Destiny,

The word "lose" is misleading when referring to salvation; the bible doesn't speak of 'losing' ones salvation but it most certainly does say there will be a great falling away/apostasy.
If what AV Bunyon teaches doesn't produce a license to sin then there must not be any doctrine that does, and I say this in all sincerity.

When we look at the (whole) of scripture we can clearly see that we must perservere in obedience. Heres just a (few) verses that contradict OSAS, but the bad thing is, according to OSAS doctrine they don't mean what they are obviously stateing.

(Matthew 24:10-13 ) At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, (but) he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


(1 Timothy 1:18-19 ) Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience). Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.


(1 Timothy 6:20-21) Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.


(2 Peter 3:17 ) Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

(John 15:6 ) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

I saw your post yesterday, and I was hoping that someone would respond to it. Apostasy is a very good point to raise, I believe.

Bear with me as I first address faith...

I think that Mondar made a good point about our faith not being shallow (It would not be true faith, I think), but something that leads to obedience. Believers must/will bear fruit, if we are of the right seed, and have been planted in proper soil.

James gives us a clear picture of how works are tied to faith. In fact, James 2 actually gives a description of how our faith-works are directly connected to our faith.
James 2
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Paul in Romans 6 shows us how we are liberated by grace through faith to yield our members to God, and not obey sin any longer.
Romans 6
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

We are to walk out our salvation with fear and trembling...to me that means careful to be obedient to tHe Law God has written on our hearts...the Law of His Truth, but I think Scripture also teaches that it is by God's grace that we do this. We can not be self-righteous in this...it must be a work of the Spirit that changes us. Jesus told us that if we love Him then we are to keep His commandments...I think this also points to the importance of walking worthy. Paul tells us that we are justified by faith, and it is not our own righteousness, but James points out that we should be acting on our faith. I just wanted to lay a little salvation foundation to start.

Now, about apostasy...

I think the elect will be saved, and will be overcomers, but not all who are called will overcome. I think some will have a taste of God, but will ultimately become apostate (maybe they are those people who did not have fertile soil for which the Word needs to be properly sown)...especially when the heat gets turned up by the deceiver. They do not grow to maturity, nor do they bear fruit...they wither. Others have no root, and others are stolen away by false teaching, and others entangled in the world. (I do not believe that this is a loss of salvation of the elect, as much as it is a process interrupted for those who are not elected)...again, I believe that God is sovereign and would be at the root of even this. Others, are just simply tares (growing in fertile soil) and have never known even a taste of God.

I think the verses you quoted are warnings for us to avoid those things that can lead us astray, and I believe it's because God uses His Word, and the Law on our hearts, to protect us and keep us to the end. I don't believe anything can separate us, if we are truly walking with regenerate hearts, and being sanctified by His grace the whole way....because we will abide in Him. This is why we are commanded to choose to walk worthy, but it is only by God's sovereign grace at work in us that we do. I hope this makes sense, and doesn't come off as circular reasoning. I am finding it more difficult to explain that I originally thought.

Anyway, I was hoping others would respond to the apostasy thing, because I think it is important point, and many others have much more knowledge about it than I do.

The Lord bless you.

 

[AVBunyan]

I've compiled a list of texts that I truly would like to see discussed.

The below explanations will not mean anything unless one is grounded in their position as revealed by Paul in Romans, Ephesians-Colossians but you asked for explanations of your verses so here goes…

Matthew 24:10-13
Context is a Jew trying to get through the future tribulation – has nothing to do with a saint in the body of Christ today.

Matthew 25:1-13 - Matthew 25:14-30
Context is the kingdom of heaven which is the literal physical earthly kingdom promised to the nation of Israel not the body of Christ – get your ages right. These folks are trying to get into the kingdom of heaven not the body of Christ of Ephesians-Colossians. And finally these folks are still tied in with the great tribulation which precedes the kingdom of heaven (1,000 year reign and eternity). The saints’ calling is a high calling – a heavenly calling as revealed in Ephesians by Paul. Things different (Israel vs. body of Christ) are not equal. The doctrines that are associated with both conflict – take that which is meant for the body of Christ and not that which was meant for Jew on his way into an earthly kingdom. The body of Christ is not in the Gospels nor in the OT – there is no body of Christ until God raises up Paul to reveal it during Acts.

Luke 12:41-48
Mercy Handy – with all due respect look at the context - this is prior to Calvary and the revelation of justification by faith. Look at the time period - Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. – Note the word “cometh†– this is the 2nd advent. The saints today are not connected with the 2nd advent – tribulation saints are.

John 15:6
Again – with feeling – this is prior to the saint being sealed in the body of Christ – There was no sealing prior to Calvary – there was no justification prior to Paul. The context is Israel not maintaining their vineyard – run the references in the Gospels and Isaiah. Get Ephesians in your system and this “branch†business will not divert you – The saint and the body of Christ is never related to branches – this is Israel.

Romans 11:17-22
Context is nation salvation – Gentile vs. Israel – not the individual in the body of Christ. Paul is warning the Gentiles as a whole during Acts as they relate to God’s plan for Israel.

1 Corinthians 9:25-27
Context is Paul concerned about losing his ministry if he was not faithful – Paul was not worried about getting unsealed, unforgiven, unseated (Eph. 2:6), etc.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11
The warning is falling not losing salvation – Why do you automatically assume when Paul talks of falling away (vs. 12) is means falling from salvation – Folks fall away from truth all the time. Saints fall in their walk daily!

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
They are to keep in memory the gospel to preach not that if they forget to keep it for themselves. Also – one can believe in vain. Paul warns about believing and even preaching a false gospel – Gal. 1:8, 9

Galatians 5:1-9
The famous “fall from grace†passage – Paul is telling them, “If you try to justify yourself by keeping the law you don’t have a chance! The message of grace has been provided for why are you going back to the law?†He is warning folks who may not even be saved for they are trying to keep the law.

Philippians 2:12-13
Notice “work out†– they have their salvation and look at the next verse - “For it is God which worketh..†– It is God doing the work any way – Look at Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:in the same verse – How did you miss this? Look at Gal. 2:20 in a KJV “I live by the faith of the Son of God,†– We live live by Christ;s faith not our own.

1 Timothy 1:18-19
Holding faith…faith have made shipwreck: - Show me where not holding faith is losing one’s position in Christ? Shipwreck does not equate to losing salvation? Why do you automatically assume this? Do you mean that you do not lose faith now and then – doesn’t mean you’ve lost your salvation – if this were the case then nobody would stand a chance – Rom. 7!!!!!

1 Timothy 6:20-21
Where do you get the idea that erring from the faith is losing one’s position in Christ? D youmean you never err in faith?!?!!? -See above point.

James 5:19-20
James was written to the 12tribes of Israel – Which tribe are you from? Are you going through the future tribulation? The person in question is a sinner not a saint. My standing is a saint – God does not seethe saint today as a sinner. Saints sins but are not sinners by position. “Such were some of you…†as Paul says earlier.

2 Peter 3:17 - Did you mean this verse?

Hebrews 4:1-11
The issue is “rest†not salvation – “lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest,â€Â. Israel was seeking the blessing of a rest in the future kingdom – not a national salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6
Who are “those� For it is impossible for those – These “those†again are Israel seeking to get into the millennial rest not a saint today hanging on to his salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-27
What does this have to do with the body of Christ? And yes there is no more sacrifice for sins. Again, context is Israel entering to their rest that was promised to them.

Hebrews 12:14-17
What is the issue? Look at “inherited the blessing,†You are again dealing with Israel heading to the kingdom and looking forward to the promised rest – The texts do not deal with the body of Christ today. Are you a Jew trying to get into the land or a saint today in the body of Christ?

2 John 8-9
2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
The issue is “reward†– not salvation – they are two different words - they do not mean the same.

Now, Handy, I took the time to answer the verses – You may not agree but I answered.

With all due respect I can summarize where I think you and others are confused:
1. You have mixed that which is for Israel as a nation with the body of Christ and vice versa.
2. You have confused that which pertains to one’s practical walk with their position. You pulled verses dealing with the practical aspect of the Christian’s life and applied it to one’s standing-position.

God bless
2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[AVBunyan]

Justification

I'll answer my first question in an abbreviated form - don't have time to modify right now:

I. What is Justification?
A. The Problem
I was born a sinner - Rom. 3:23, dead in trespasses in sin - Eph. 2:1, at enmity with God - Rom. 8, blinded - II Cor. 4:4, dead to spiritual things - I Cor. 2:14, not seeking God - Rom. 3:8 and on my way to a lake of fire because of the sin that dwelt in me - Rom. 5:12; Rev. 20:15. There was nothing I could do to get out of this mess - Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8, 9; Tit. 3:5. How can a dead man that is dead spiritually, not seeking God, has not understanding, separated from God, and blinded to the true gospel chose God? He can’t. Lazarus was dead – he could not come back from the dead on his own. The world in Gen. 1:2 was dead and in a darkened state and not capable of coming to life on its own.

B. The Provision
Because of sin God has to judge sin and the penalty for sin. Something or someone has to be the sin payment in order for man to be redeemed from death in hell for eternity. In the OT God provided the sacrifices so their sins could be overlooked for a time. But God is gracious in that He desires to display His love and mercy. Man cannot meet the requirements that God demands -Tit. 3:5; Rom. 3:10-12; Isa. 64:6; Psa. 39:5. The law cannot redeem man - Rom. 8:3; Gal. 2:21; 3:11, 12. God has to provide a blood substitute and it has to be perfect blood to redeem imperfect man - Acts 20:28. The only way to redeem man is to have a perfect man redeem imperfect man and that man is the man Christ Jesus who became our sin substitute on Cavalry - Rom. 5:8; II Cor. 5:21. When Christ hung on the cross he became sin for us. The wrath of God that poured out on Christ should have been for us but Christ took our place - II Cor. 5:21. Andrias Tobias in the 1600’s said, “All God’s wrath was poured out on Christ so there is none left for the believerâ€Â.

C. The Deliverance
Then one day I was given the gospel - I Cor. 15:1-5; God took the blinders off - Rom. 10:17; II Cor. 4:5,6; God gave me the faith of Jesus Christ - Eph. 2:8,9; Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16; - Eph. 1:13; regenerated me - Tit. 3:5; enabled me to believe; reconciled me -Rom. 5:10; spiritually circumcised me - Col. 2:10-12; sealed me - Eph. 1:13; put me into the body of Christ - Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:10-12; glorified me - Rom. 8:30; redeemed me - Col. 1:14; Gal. 3:13; made me an adopted son - Rom. 8:15; made me accepted in the beloved - Eph. 1:6; blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ - Eph. 1:3; forgave me - Eph. 1:7; raised me up - Eph. 2:6; made me bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh - Eph. 5:30; gave me an inheritance - Eph. 1:11, came in to me - Col. 1:27, and completed me - Col. 2:10 and a few more that we don’t have to go into now.

Lazarus came forth because Christ called him out by name – great picture of salvation. Paul was on his way to Damascus when God reached down and quickened him. The world of Gen. 1:2 was dead until God did a work – II Cor. 4:3-6.

What God did was take a pile of dung and make it righteous. When God declared the sinner justified what He basically did was to declare the sinner to be perfect as though he never sinned or ever will. God could do that based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

II. My Duty After Justification
Real clear – walk worthy - Eph. 4:1; live godly - Tit. 2:12, be not conformed to this world - Rom. 12:2; study - II Tim. 2:15; pray - Phil. 4:6; forgive others - Eph. 4:32; love my wife (Eph. 5); witness - II Cor. 5:20; be thankful - I Thess. 5:18, and the list goes on and on. So I don’t just stop at believing for after believing and being saved the real work begins - Phil. 2:12.

If a person fails at the above now and then does not mean he can lose what God did. If the saint does none of the above then there is good evidence the work of regeneration probably never took place. Man cannot undo what God did.

III. Closing Remarks
As you can see salvation is not dependent upon anything man can do. Man is justified by what Christ did at Calvary alone. Because he did nothing to earn salvation he can do nothing to lose what is not his. The work was not the sinners but Christ’s, the faith the sinner exercised was not his but Christ’s Rom. 3:22, Eph. 2:8, 9, the sealing was not the sinners but Christ’s so what was left for man to do? All the sinner could do was to take God at His word that Christ did it all.

May God bless

 

[sisterchristian]

You noticed. I was afraid that fact escaped you. Somehow I believe that a God of love and mercy would take that into account and make allowances. Do you think the same rules should apply to everyone regardless of circumstances? Maybe you would prefer being nailed to a cross to earn your reward, instead of having to love one another and live according to love and mercy. Our crosses to bear are not as painfully short as his was, but I have a feeling you wouldn’t trade places.

Do you realize that his performance on his last day are not the only good/bad deeds for which he will no doubt be judged by? Jesus knew of his whole life and knew his circumstances and most importantly, his heart. Your problem is that you believe in a fictitious gospel where in a moment of belief, everything of your past vanishes and nothing done before (or even after?) this point counts. I think it is more biblical to see that we suffer the consequences of sin unless God spares us. And that call is his, btw. Rough knowing that he is in ultimate control and we don’t make the rules and even know most of them, ain’t it? That‘s where trust and obey comes in handy, huh? Faith in God, we call it. Without faith it is impossible to please him....

He was a thief, for crying out loud! Nothing he did in his lifetime was the reason that he was saved! The fact is at that appointed time when he was hanging there he realized who Jesus was and chose to put his trust and faith in him, and that my friend is the reason that he was going to be with him in paradise!

 

[Fox_Fan]

Specifically, it's not having one's name in the book of life. It truly cannot get more specific than Revelations 20:11-15:

And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, the next question would be, "How does one get one's name in the book of life?"

To tell the truth, I don't think the Scriptures addresses the subject. The book of life is in heaven. It contains the names of all who are saved. But, I myself do not know of any passages which explain under what circumstances names are recorded in the book of life. The simplest and most obvious answer would be our names are recorded in heaven upon our regeneration. Hopefully, someone else around here will have a better answer.

And, since we're dealing with the book of life, we might as well address under what circumstances does someone whose name is in the book of life, can get their name blotted out?

I believe the first instance the book of life is directly mentioned in the bible is when the Israelites had made the golden calf. Moses is interceeding upon their behalf, and states: "Alas, the people has committed a great sin, and they have made for themselves a god of gold. But now, if Thou wilt, forgive their sin-and if not, please blot me out from Thy book which Thou has written!"

And the Lord said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." Exodus 32:31-33

One of the last mentions of the book, prior to the prophecy of Judgement Day, is Revelations 3:1-6

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this:
I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive , and you are dead. Wake up, and stregthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase His name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says tothe churches.

So not being written in the book of life is what causes a person to go to hell. Not what they do or do not do?

 

[cyberjosh]

Bill Gothard mentioned a view on this that I had never heard before. He said that he did not believe that you can loose the salvation of your spirit, but based on what the Bible reveals you can loose the salvation of of your soul. My dad when I told him that looked a little reserved at first (since I know he thinks a little differently than Bill Gothard on that issue) but instead he just answered, "Well the Bible makes it clear that Jesus came to redeem men's souls, so if you loose the salvation of your soul, I'm thinking that's not good at all. Really not good."

I concur.

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

So, the next question would be, "How does one get one's name in the book of life?"

Handy, maybe the question should be, how does one get their name removed from the Book?

 

[cyberjosh]

Handy, maybe the question should be, how does one get their name removed from the Book?

By sinning against God by trangressing his covenant and its accompanying grace (lovingkindness - hesed).

"Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." (Exodus 32:22)

"Oh, brother Josh, but that's Old Testament!"

Since when have God's standards changed?

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life" (Revelation 3:5)

Do we have a covenant of grace by faith under Jesus? Well, so did Abraham (Galatians 3:5-14). Were works meritous of our salvation under the New Covenant? Niether were the works of the law (even in Moses' day), but rather God's grace and covenant love (hesed) and faithfulnesss is what saved men "who waited upon the Lord" - a Lord who desires mercy (hesed) not sacrifice (a OT Law stipulation) [Hosea 6:6]. But Jesus was the only one who could redeem us from our past, present, and future sins and justify us before the Father so we could walk in holiness - however God still expects of us obedience to his covenant.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." (Matthew 7:21).

We must utilize the freely given grace of God to obey his covenant (for God's glory) with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. God's hesed (lovingkindness - his highest grace) is superabounding under the New Covenant, lifting us up still after repetetive failures, but he lifts up those who repent with Godly sorrow by His Holy Spirit and sets us aright again. But repetetive sin unnaccompanied by Godly sorrow unto repentance in the life of the believer, just because he or she is a child of God, does not exempt them from the truth that sin decieves and hardens one's heart: "But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:13).

Let us not trample on the grace of God and recieve it in vain, for it is the only thing keeping us from sin, "we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1), lest it be said of us also by God: "I will also do with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath by breaking the covenant" (Ezekiel 16:59) and "The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24:5).

Keep God's commandments and you will live! Your name will be inscribed in the Book of Life and God shall not blot it out! But be wary lest we think we stand and yet fall.

"By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments." (1 John 2:3)

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[golfjack]

reply

In the Gospels what covenant were the people under?



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

In the Gospels what covenant were the people under?

The Abrahamic Covenant (Galatians 3:5-16), which incidentally was being acted out/upon (soon to be extended in the New Covenant) before their very eyes as God's hesed (lovingkindness/loyalty/faithfulness - a concept meaning that God acts - by virtue of His faithful love - to keep his covenant promises; hesed is a covenant word). Jesus made a reality the Covenant of Grace God gave to Abraham - which was purposed in God's heart since the foundation of the world - that the lamb would be slain for our transgressions so that we may be reconciled to God by his grace.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

"Oh, brother Josh, but that's Old Testament!"

LOL. Well considering the Jewish feel of Revelation, you are on to something, brother Josh. 8-)

 

[unred typo]

He was a thief, for crying out loud! Nothing he did in his lifetime was the reason that he was saved! The fact is at that appointed time when he was hanging there he realized who Jesus was and chose to put his trust and faith in him, and that my friend is the reason that he was going to be with him in paradise!

The reason any of us will be saved is because of God’s mercy and love for his fallen creation. That’s the reason that he judges us according to our works, and the thoughts and intentions of our hearts, instead of tossing us in the garbage when we fall short of his perfect glory.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.

He may have been a thief but he also could have risked his life stealing bread for his starving family for all you know. You really aren’t in a position to be judging the man at all.

 

[sisterchristian]

The reason any of us will be saved is because of God’s mercy and love for his fallen creation. That’s the reason that he judges us according to our works, and the thoughts and intentions of our hearts, instead of tossing us in the garbage when we fall short of his perfect glory.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad.

He may have been a thief but he also could have risked his life stealing bread for his starving family for all you know. You really aren’t in a position to be judging the man at all.

Oh so stealing in that case makes it ok? I am not judging the man I'm trying to make a point on how we do not get to heaven by our works, he was proof of that!

 

[AVBunyan]

1. By sinning against God
2. by trangressing his covenant and its accompanying grace (lovingkindness - hesed).

1. Mercy - if sinning against God removes my name or any other saints' from the book of life then no one would have chance! God in his wisdom knew this - that is why he paid for my future sins also.

Problem is Josh you do not believe Christ died for your sins.

2. The body of Christ is in no way connected with any covenant with God - The body of Christ is not connected to Abraham's calling - the church, which is his body, is associated with a high calling.

I trust this helps but I know it will not - folks want to be Jewish believers under the OT so bad. :-?

 

[unred typo]

Oh so stealing in that case makes it ok? I am not judging the man I'm trying to make a point on how we do not get to heaven by our works, he was proof of that!

No, it wasn’t OK, not according to law. The law condemned a man to death even for stealing to provide for his family. That’s the difference between law and love. Love is a more merciful way to judge situations and mercy rejoices against the letter of the law. The Romans were not interested in the way of Christ, of mercy and love, since they had to maintain fear to rule over the people they conquered. In this imperfect world, there will be much injustice in trying to suppress others.

That’s why followers of Christ are told to judge not and to turn the other cheek. God will judge those who deserve to be punished. Since he has now actually walked a mile in our shoes and knows the temptations we go through first hand, and has paid the price for the bread we stole, he can deal justly and also with love.

God isn’t interested in sending sinners to hell. He wants them to repent and walk in love. This is what the thief on the cross did. Think of how much faith this man had to turn to a bloody, beaten, dying man and say, “Remember me when you come into your kingdom!†He believed in Christ. He repented and was ready in his heart to follow Christ. The sins he committed were paid for by the sacrifice of Christ and Christ was the one extending mercy to him.

As for his former acts of love and kindness, God is not going to forget them. Whatsoever is done in love is wrought in God. You have a false dichotomy that divides everything in a person’s life into ‘pre decision to accept Christ’ and ‘post decision to accept Christ.’ It’s not so simple. There are acts of pure love done by non Christians and there are acts of what appear to be love but are filled with greed, ego, lust and jealousy. Only God can see a person’s thoughts and intents of the heart.

The reason the thief went to paradise was his true repentance, his faith in Christ and his sincere confession of belief. Don’t you believe if he were removed from his cross, he would have continued with Christ and walked in forgiveness and love? Jesus apparently thought so.

 

[unred typo]

1. Mercy - if sinning against God removes my name or any other saints' from the book of life then no one would have chance! God in his wisdom knew this - that is why he paid for my future sins also.
Problem is Josh you do not believe Christ died for your sins.

That’s why God gives us a grace period. He allows us space to repent, if we haven’t already pushed him to the limit. Continued or blatant willful rebellion against God removes our name from the book of life. Can we be restored? That is a decision for God. I wouldn’t want to risk it but as long as we’re alive, there is hope that the prodigal can return. Your problem is that you seem to want to give God rules to follow in his judgment of mankind. No rules, just right. :wink:

As for future sins, Reading Romans 3:25 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;†we see the sins that are remitted are those that are past. Do you have a verse to back up your forgiveness of sins that haven’t even been committed yet? Care must be taken not to confuse the verses that speak of the ability of the blood to cover all sin, of future generations, when it is repented of. You can’t repent of a sin you haven’t committed yet.

2. The body of Christ is in no way connected with any covenant with God - The body of Christ is not connected to Abraham's calling - the church, which is his body, is associated with a high calling.
I trust this helps but I know it will not - folks want to be Jewish believers under the OT so bad.

Really? What do you do with Hebrews 10:29 ?
"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"