Freewill (not a troll)

[AnonymousNT]

This may need to go in the debate board, but at a glance it doesn't look very active (mods, please keep this here, I honestly want to know others thoughts about this, I am not here to upset people)

1.)God is infallible, yes?
2.)God is omniscient, yes?
3.)If #2 is true, God knows when I'm going to sin, yes?
4.)If 1, 2 and 3 are true, I have no choice but to sin, yes?
5.)However, God gave me free will apparently, yes?

So it seems there are two options.

Option 1...I come upon a situation where God knows I'm going to sin. I do, in fact, commit sin in said situation proving God's infallibility. Except for where this means that the whole free will thing is just an illusion and we are all lottery picks to live righteously or not. Thus, whether or not we go to heaven or hell has already been decided by God before we were even conscience of our existence. If this is true (and you can't argue it unless you pick option 2) why go to church, pray, or do anything else?

or

Option 2...I come upon a situation where God knows I'm going to sin. I do not, in fact, commit sin in said situation. Instead, I surprise God and do the righteous thing. Unfortunately this makes god neither infallible nor omniscient. So if we do in fact gain our salvation through surprising God, we must accept the possibility that God can be wrong. If we accept this, is it not natural to assume that if God can be wrong once, then perhaps he can be wrong again? And if so, is not the very foundation of the Christian faith destroyed as a result of a large shadow of doubt being placed on its teachings throughout history? If all this is true (and you can't argue it unless you pick option 1) why worship a deity who is no more infallible nor omniscient than you?


Thoughts?

 

[John]

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28789

 

[Christian Heretic]

1.)God is infallible, yes?
2.)God is omniscient, yes?
3.)If #2 is true, God knows when I'm going to sin, yes?
4.)If 1, 2 and 3 are true, I have no choice but to sin, yes?
5.)However, God gave me free will apparently, yes?

So it seems there are two options.

Option 1...I come upon a situation where God knows I'm going to sin. I do, in fact, commit sin in said situation proving God's infallibility. Except for where this means that the whole free will thing is just an illusion and we are all lottery picks to live righteously or not. Thus, whether or not we go to heaven or hell has already been decided by God before we were even conscience of our existence. If this is true (and you can't argue it unless you pick option 2) why go to church, pray, or do anything else?

Your argument appears flawed on its face.

God's knowing the choices we make before we make them has absolutely no influence upon our free will to choose.

God does not know us as we know each other, God knows us from the INSIDE OUT rather then from the OUTSIDE IN for God does not know us through our rational minds but rather God knows us through our Soul, Spirit and completely bypasses the intellectual veneer we present to this world and ourselves.

Thus God knows the truth about us rather the lies and self deceptions we present to others and ourselves.

Tell me do you have kids?

If you do i am sure that there are certain situations or temptations, where even you, a mere human, can accurately predict your child's response.

Now by being able to accurately determine your child's action prior to them actually committing the action did you in any way violate your child's free will to choose? Of course not, your child's free will to choose is in no way affected by your foreknowledge.

So if your foreknowledge does not violate your child's free will why does God's foreknowledge violate ours?

 

[Paidion]

Tell me do you have kids?

If you do i am sure that there are certain situations or temptations, where even you, a mere human, can accurately predict your child's response.

Now by being able to accurately determine your child's action prior to them actually committing the action did you in any way violate your child's free will to choose? Of course not, your child's free will to choose is in no way affected by your foreknowledge.

There is an insurmountable difference between being able to "predict" your child's response (paragraph 2) and "being able to determine your child's action prior to them actually committing the action".

Yes, I can predict my child's response. But I cannot determine my child's response. I cannot know my child's response. For to know my child's response implies that my child will respond in the way I know. If my child is not free to respond contrary to my knowledge, then where is his free will? You are right in saying that it is not foreknowledge that causes my child's action. Rather it is the contradictory idea that "my child will do action A tomorrow" is a sentence which has present truth value (that is, a sentence which is either true or false NOW)
If this sentence had present truth value, then my child has no free will. Let me explain:

Suppose it is now true that James will play with Mike tomorrow at 2 P.M. Then is James able to refrain from playing with Mike at 2 P.M.? If you say "yes", then suppose James DOES choose to do something else. This contradicts the TRUE SENTENCE that James will play with Mike tomorrow at 2 P.M. On the other hand suppose that it is now false that James will play with Mike tomorrow at 2 P.M. Then can James choose to play with Mike tomorrow at 2 P.M.? If he does, that would contradict the FALSE SENTENCE that James will play with Mike tomorrow at 2 P.M. If the sentence is Either way, there is something that James cannot do. Either James cannot refrain from playing with Mike at 2 P.M. or James cannot play with Mike at 2 P.M. Therefore James does not have free will.

But James DOES have free will! Therefore the sentence "James will play with Mike tomorrow at 2 P.M." is now NEITHER TRUE NOR FALSE. The sentence will BECOME true or false only when James makes his choice. Thus sentences about the future have no present truth value. The sentence is not a statement about the future. The sentence is a PREDICTION about the future, which may become true or may become false.

And now "Christian Heretic" to address the logical problem you posed:

1.)God is infallible, yes?
2.)God is omniscient, yes?
3.)If #2 is true, God knows when I'm going to sin, yes?
4.)If 1, 2 and 3 are true, I have no choice but to sin, yes?
5.)However, God gave me free will apparently, yes?

The problem is #3. In order for someone (it doesn't have to be God) to KNOW that you are going to sin implies that the sentence "CH is going to sin" has present truth value. Since it is a sentence about the future and therefore has NO truth value, no one can know it, not even God, not because God is not omniscient, but because there is nothing to know.

God is omniscient! He knows everything that there is to know. But the future doesn't exist. That's why it's called "the future". Sentence about the future are often put into statement form. So they appear to be statements. But in reality, they are either predictions, or statements of intention.

 

[John]

I do not recall writing that.

 

[Christian Heretic]

The problem is #3. In order for someone (it doesn't have to be God) to KNOW that you are going to sin implies that the sentence "CH is going to sin" has present truth value. Since it is a sentence about the future and therefore has NO truth value, no one can know it, not even God, not because God is not omniscient, but because there is nothing to know.

Again you err for the future does exist; God creates the future with His Prophecies of His spoken Word of Truth.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Do you really think the Universe unfolds without a controlled plan and do you really think that something God has said will happen can possibly not happen?

In the Christs' walk upon the earth He fulfilled some sixty different prophecies made about Him hundreds and even thousands of years prior to His birth. The fulfillment of these Prophecies required far more then mere foreknowledge they required the ability to create the future before it happens and do so without violating any persons free will.

A couple of examples from our Lord’s sentencing and crucifixion:

Pilate’s wife had dreams and warned her husband and Pilate recognized that Jesus the Christ had been delivered due to envy of the Priests. It was Pilate’s will to release Jesus the Christ. Yet even though Pilate desired to release Jesus his greater desire was to maintain order.

Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mat 27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

It was customary for those who had been crucified to have their legs broken to speed the death process yet the Scriptures said "not one bone in His Body would be broken."

Joh 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and broke the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they broke not his legs: Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. Joh 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the Scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

God does not have to violate anyone’s free will to accomplish His Prophecies, His preordained future, for He knows all of us better then we know ourselves.

Free will is NATURALLY subject to many things, physical reality, perceived consequences and a hierarchy of personal desires are but a few.

None of these things violate our free will as you well know because all of us experience these obstacles to our free will every day in our lives.

God creates the Future with His Spoken Word and then demonstrates that He and He alone controls the future by fulfilling every Prophecy He makes regardless of the time frame involved.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Your statement “

Since it is a sentence about the future and therefore has NO truth value is patently error.

God only speaks TRUTH and His Prophecies are TRUTH for you to presume God’s Prophecies have no value is quite absurd.

This statement also says that you know nothing of HOPE which is only about the FUTURE

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Rom 8:25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

no one can know it, not even God, not because God is not omniscient, but because there is nothing to know

I have no idea what God you speak of but it is not the God Scripture reveals.

But then perhaps you have only read about the Scriptures and never actually read them for yourself.

 

[mondar]

Option 1...I come upon a situation where God knows I'm going to sin. I do, in fact, commit sin in said situation proving God's infallibility. Except for where this means that the whole free will thing is just an illusion and we are all lottery picks to live righteously or not. Thus, whether or not we go to heaven or hell has already been decided by God before we were even conscience of our existence. If this is true (and you can't argue it unless you pick option 2) why go to church, pray, or do anything else?

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
AnonymousNT, can you really say that your entire paragraph come to a different conclusion then what the word of God has already addressed?

Let me say that I enjoy watching your thinking. I can see the wheels turning. I can see you wrestling with the absolute sovereignty of God and the free will of man. In "Option 2" you seem to be leaning toward Open Theism. Something that you seem not to be willing to consider is that human responsibility is not based upon free will, but upon the fact that we all sinned under Adam's federal headship (Romans 5). That is called original sin, and it is a very difficult biblical doctrine. In essence it places the human race under judgment because of Adams sin. So then we all sin, because we are sinners (no free will). For those who deny original sin, they think we become sinners because we sin (free will position).

I think your question is this... if we accept that we are sinners because of Adams sin, and have no free will to choose righteousness, why then does God judge us as responsible moral agents? That question is answered in Romans 9. Pauls answer there is not easy to believe, but it is the only answer the bible gives to your question. We are responsible moral agents. And God will judge us, unless he chooses to regenerate the nature of a person to have faith and to elect them as a vessel chosen for mercy.

If you will excuse the pun, I wish you good luck in your search for an answer to your delema.

 

[Drew]

I think your question is this... if we accept that we are sinners because of Adams sin, and have no free will to choose righteousness, why then does God judge us as responsible moral agents? That question is answered in Romans 9.

I do not think that Romans 9 deals with this issue. The material in Romans 9, where Paul argues for the "selective" mercy of God, is not an argument at the "personal" level - an argument about how it is just for God to judge those who sin "in Adam".

It is instead Paul's argument for God's right to "harden" the nation of Israel in order to bring salvation to the world. Paul is making an argument about how God has worked in history at the levels of nations to bring about his redemptive purposes.

So while I agree that we are not free to the point where we can choose to not sin, and while I agree that this raises questions about God's justice, Romans 9 is not the place to go for answers to these questions.

 

[Vic C.]

I do not recall writing that.

You didn't, Christian Heretic did. I will fix Paidion's post.

Paidion, did you eat something too spicy Sunday night? ;)

 

[Drew]

The problem is #3. In order for someone (it doesn't have to be God) to KNOW that you are going to sin implies that the sentence "CH is going to sin" has present truth value. Since it is a sentence about the future and therefore has NO truth value, no one can know it, not even God, not because God is not omniscient, but because there is nothing to know.

God is omniscient! He knows everything that there is to know. But the future doesn't exist. That's why it's called "the future". Sentence about the future are often put into statement form. So they appear to be statements. But in reality, they are either predictions, or statements of intention.

I emphatically agree. To some, such distinctions may appear to be worldplay.

I agree that the "future" is not really an "object of possible knowledge". I think it is more correct to think in terms of intentions and predictions, as you say. The future is not a "thing" we can know stuff about.

 

[Vic C.]

OK guys, the past, present and future are linear values in the dimension we call time. People say we live in a three dimensional world, but we don't. Foregoing string theory and whatever, we must include time as a dimension, so there is at least a fourth. To say God isn't omnipresent is to deny a very basic tenant of our Faith. So if God is everywhere... then He is also in what we call the "future".

If He doesn't at least have foreknowledge of what we consider to be in the future, well then, He isn't much wiser than we are, is He? Couldn't we say that God's ability to know all is something He chooses to use when it suits His will? I know mondar and others may disagree and that's ok; I'm not dogmatic about this concept anyway. I am willing to entertain it way before I ever concede to Him having no foreknowledge whatsoever.

Having free will does not negate the fact that a being like God doesn't know our actions. Tell me what's the difference between knowing what I will do by some Divine knowledge and making me do something by some Diving forceful will?

Jesus said, "Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."

Was that a mere prediction? Was that Jesus forcing Peter to do something or... was it Divine foreknowledge?

People, stop thinking like Man and start thinking like God.

Oh wait... you can't! You never will, so please, stop thinking you know God's will and mind.

I'm thinking for every verse you guys can come up with disproving omniscience, members like Christian Heretic and Mondar can come up with several prooftexts in favor of omniscience.

 

[mondar]

OK guys, the past, present and future are linear values in the dimension we call time. People say we live in a three dimensional world, but we don't. Foregoing string theory and whatever, we must include time as a dimension, so there is at least a fourth. To say God isn't omnipresent is to deny a very basic tenant of our Faith. So if God is everywhere... then He is also in what we call the "future".

Interesting, I like this part.

If He doesn't at least have foreknowledge of what we consider to be in the future, well then, He isn't much wiser than we are, is He? Couldn't we say that God's ability to know all is something He chooses to use when it suits His will? I know mondar and others may disagree and that's ok; I'm not dogmatic about this concept anyway. I am willing to entertain it way before I ever concede to Him having no foreknowledge whatsoever.

It is probably not your intent to bait me to comment, but oh well.

would like to reframe the questions posed above as I hear it in my own ears.
"Does God choose not to choose, or---
does God choose to allow certain things to happen because he wants them to happen?"
In other words..... " Does God allow sin, because he wants to manifest his glory in judging sin?"

If the above is true, where is free will?

Having free will does not negate the fact that a being like God doesn't know our actions. Tell me what's the difference between knowing what I will do by some Divine knowledge and making me do something by some Diving forceful will?

Vic C. Hmmmm, God never forces anyone to do anything? Did he force Jonah to go to Ninevah? Does he ask our free will permission to regenerate our inner man with the new nature? Does he ask our permission for the HS to indwell?

God never makes anyone sin, nor does he tempt anyone to sin, nor does he participate in human sin in any way. When God hardens hearts, he does not need use magic to make us more sinful. How did God harden pharaohs heart in Roman 9? He raise him up to power over all Egypt. He did not use a magic curse to harden his heart. God could have made Pharaoh a slave with few possible choices and no influence. Rather he took this vile person and made him Pharaoh so that he might gain even more pride and become even more hard in the grand power of Egypt. Did God want Pharaoh to sin? No! Never! Did God decree that Pharaoh to sin greatly so that he could judge Pharaoh and Egypt and display his might, power, and glory to the nations? Yes.

Jesus said, "Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."

Was that a mere prediction? Was that Jesus forcing Peter to do something or... was it Divine foreknowledge?

People, stop thinking like Man and start thinking like God.

Oh wait... you can't! You never will, so please, stop thinking you know God's will and mind.

I'm thinking for every verse you guys can come up with disproving omniscience, members like Christian Heretic and Mondar can come up with several prooftexts in favor of omniscience

hmmm, I will have to read Christian Heretic more closely. I did not see his position as being close to mine. I thought he was leaning more toward open theism. Is not that the opposite poll from Gods complete sovereignty?

 

[Vic C.]

"Does God choose not to choose, or---
does God choose to allow certain things to happen because he wants them to happen?"

Um, no offense, but not quite related to what I said or suggested. To allow it to happen, first He must know it's going to happen. Anyway, like I said I'm not set on this idea.

hmmm, I will have to read Christian Heretic more closely. I did not see his position as being close to mine. I thought he was leaning more toward open theism. Is not that the opposite poll from Gods complete sovereignty?

You both believe in omniscience, so that was my point. You were correct, I wasn't trying to bait you at all. I'm not even wanting to get into the midst of this discussion. You are focusing on what I said when what I was trying to do was bring to light some things Paidion and Drew said; things I thought were opposite of what you believed, hence me using your username.

Peace.

 

[Paidion]

Again you err for the future does exist; God creates the future with His Prophecies of His spoken Word of Truth.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Perhaps by "God creates the future" you really mean "God causes things to happen". One can say that even about a human being. When Joe Bloe mows his lawn, he makes things happen. The grass becomes short. So I suppose in one sense, you could say that Joe Bloe "created the future" in doing so.

Do you really think the Universe unfolds without a controlled plan...?

What gave you the idea that I think that? There are certain things that God decides to do. Nothing can stop him. That which He intends to accomplish, I suppose could be said to be "controlled". However, God does not "control" human beings and the choices they make. If he did, we would be no more than sophisticated robots, and not the free will agents which we are. Humanity was created in God's image, not physically, but mentally and spiritually. Thus people have the ability to choose, just as God does.

"...and do you really think that something God has said will happen can possibly not happen?"

What I think may not be very important, but in this case, my thoughts correspond to the Scriptural record. But let me throw the question back to you. Do you really think that something God said will happen HAS to happen? If so, your thoughts are not consistent with Scripture.

God prophesied through Jonah, "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed". (Jonah 3:2-4)

Now some try to save God's prophecy by saying that He really meant the prophecy to be conditional, that is, He really meant, "Unless you repent, Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days."

But this cannot be the case, since the following passage shows that God really did intend to destroy Nineveh in 40 days, but changed His mind after He saw that the Ninevites repented:

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. Jonah 3:10 NRSV

In Jeremiah, God Himself declares that He will change His mind about His intentions, according to the decisions which people make!

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. Jeremiah 18:7-10 NRSV

Here is a case where God thought one thing would happen, and the opposite happened.

Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. "I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Jeremiah 3:6-7 NRSV

Just in case you might think that the NRSV is a poor translation of the passage, I will quote from the Jewish Study Bible, Tanakh Translation (Jewish Publication Society). This translation was prepared by a group of Hebrew experts, including professors at Jewish universities and theological colleges:

The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: Have you seen what Rebel Israel did going to every high montain and under every leafy tree, and whoring there? I thought: After she has done all these things, she will come back to Me. But she did not come back; and her sister, Faithless Judah, saw it. JSB © 1985,1999

 

[mondar]

As Vic C has hinted, I will outright state. I do not see man as a totally free creature. I believe we are bound by original sin, and are by nature rebels against God. In essence this is a denial of the absolute free will of man.

It is my opinion that the absolute free will of man is a problem to the view of the absolute sovereignty of God. First, from an exegetical perspective I do not see the absolute free will of man, and second, from a logical perspective, I do not see that God can be completely sovereign if man has absolute free will. I would suggest if anyone has absolute free will, it is God.

I think some in this thread see the same problem that God cannot be absolutely sovereign if man has absolute free will. Then the future becomes an issue. How do we resolve the chance of free will decision of man with Gods control of the future? When the absolute free will of man is chosen as the axiomatic truth upon which to begin our thinking, it seems to eliminate the absolute sovereignty of God over the future.

So then I would side with the view that Gods complete foreknowledge and absolute sovereignty (omnipotence) are the axiomatic truth that we should begin with. When the concepts of complete foreknowledge and absolute sovereignty and omnipotence are all put together, how can any part of the future be uncertain? So then the "existance of the future" is no longer an issue, but the certainty of the future is the issue, and it is decided firmly on the basis of Gods sovereignty. God is the God of the future, present, and past.

So then, to repeat what I am saying in another way..... If man is a totally free will creature, either God does not have complete foreknowledge, or God does not have absolute sovereignty, or mans free will is subservient to and inferior to the attributes, power, foreknowledge, and omnipotence of God.

I hope we all agree that the issue should not be decided on the basis of reason alone. There are texts that can be exegeted to observe the superiority of Gods sovereignty over mans inferior free will in action. I do not have a bible handy and cannot get an internet version to cut and paste from currently. So please excuse the vague references.

Joseph--- At the end of Genesis, Joseph speaks of the sin and rebellion of his brothers. When speaking of their mistreatment of him (plotting his murder, putting him in a pit, selling him into slavery), Joseph made the comment something like "You intended it for evil, but God intended it for good to save many people alive." So then we can ask did God want Josephs brothers sin against Joseph and sell him into slavery? Was God somehow caught off guard and had to implement plan B, and get Joseph out of this tough situation and rescue him from something that got out of his control? Or did God actually decree that the brothers of Joseph would sell him into slavery? The answer is that God intended it to happen, but the reason he intended it to happen is a good reason.... so that he could "save many alive." So then might decree sin, but only so that he can use sin to demonstrate his ability to even use our rebellious sinful decisions for a greater good. So then, there is a kind of free will, but God in his sovereignty, foreknowledge, and omnipotence is above and in control of events.

Where people are stumpted is with the concept of God decreeing evil. Gods revealed will is that he wants to men to live righteously. But he decrees that evil will exist. We see God decreeing that the brothers of Joseph would sell him into slavery... "God intended." The difficult part is to believe the text when it says that God actually intended for Joseph to be sold into slavery. God intended that!

Jonah---- In the NT, in the Gospel of John, Jonah was used as an illustration of the death and resurrection of Christ. God chose Jonah. God chose to send Jonah to Ninevah. Jonah chose rebellion and made different choices. Who won? Why did God win? Did God not foresee the rebellion of Jonah? Was Jonah for a time out of Gods control, and God had to sweat it out for a while and hope to regain control of the situation? I again ask the question, one what basis can we say that Jonah had complete free will? God not only decreed that Jonah would preach in Ninevah, but when looking at the NT, I see some evidence he decreed Jonah's rebellion. In the Gospel of John, Jonah was used as an illustration of the death and resurrection of Christ.

Job--- This is the weakest illustration, but I want to include it. In job 1 and 2 we see the heavenly decisions being made. Satan accuses, and God defends Job that "there is none like him in all the earth." What a huge claim! God just put his own reputation on the line with such a statement. Can the name of God be great, and his word about Job be false? Some see this as a test of Job, and it is.... but it is also a test of God! Can Gods word about Job stand? Notice in the book that God drew Satan's attention to Job. He asked Satan if he considered his servant Job. Why did God do this? When the testing of Job began was God in heaven biting his nails nervously hoping Job would not curse him? Was Job of such free will that God was not sure of the outcome? Maybe God and the heavenly host were tuned in to the world wide of ancient sports cheering for Job, drinking beer, and just hoping Job would pull this one out in the last inning? Then when it was all over, they all slapped God on the back and mentioned how close that one was? Was God caught off guard by Satan's host when he hit Jobs sons and daughters? Or did God want Satan to try his best so that God can stand as the sovereign God of all creation on earth and under the earth and in heaven? Did God decree Jobs demise, and Satan's attempt and failure to seduce Job into cursing God?

Jesus the Messiah--- Maybe the greatest evil of all times was the murder of the Messiah by Roman authorities. Again, was God somehow hoping for Jesus to be received by the Jewish nation? Was the redemption found in the Crucifixion plan B after plan A failed? Or did God in his foreordination council decree this most evil sin in all human history to take place (the text is somewhere in Acts 2)? Did God actually decree the murder of his own son at the hands of men? Or was this an event that happened by chance?

CONCLUSION---Is God just getting lucky with prophetic predictions of the rebellion and sin of mankind? Or is all this happening because there is only one absolute and completely free will in the universe? My conclusion is that the future rests secure in the powerful hand of God.

A LITTLE PREACHING? The bottom line is that God decrees what mans will is to be, but who decrees what Gods will is to be? Can Satan defeat Gods will? Can man challenge the mighty and glorious decree of God with mans ability to make his own choices come true? We all choose according to our sinful human natures, but God is still above those choices and is far greater then any choice we can make. We make choices, and God is always in control. He holds the future, in the palm of his mighty hand, and does with it what he pleases. I know such a concept of God is unsettling and terrifying. Who would not fear to stand in the presence of such a powerful God? A God that is even sovereign over sin in the future to come. Only by the love of God did he decree Christs shed blood so that the believer can stand in the presence of such a holy all powerful, all knowing, perfect God.

 

[mondar]

................
What I think may not be very important, but in this case, my thoughts correspond to the Scriptural record. But let me throw the question back to you. Do you really think that something God said will happen HAS to happen? If so, your thoughts are not consistent with Scripture.

God prophesied through Jonah, "40 days and Nineveh will be destroyed". (Jonah 3:2-4)

Now some try to save God's prophecy by saying that He really meant the prophecy to be conditional, that is, He really meant, "Unless you repent, Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days."

But this cannot be the case, since the following passage shows that God really did intend to destroy Nineveh in 40 days, but changed His mind after He saw that the Ninevites repented:

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. Jonah 3:10 NRSV

In Jeremiah, God Himself declares that He will change His mind about His intentions, according to the decisions which people make!

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. Jeremiah 18:7-10 NRSV

Here is a case where God thought one thing would happen, and the opposite happened.

Then the LORD said to me in the days of Josiah the king, "Have you seen what faithless Israel did? She went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and she was a harlot there. "I thought, ‘After she has done all these things she will return to Me’; but she did not return, and her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Jeremiah 3:6-7 NRSV

Just in case you might think that the NRSV is a poor translation of the passage, I will quote from the Jewish Study Bible, Tanakh Translation (Jewish Publication Society). This translation was prepared by a group of Hebrew experts, including professors at Jewish universities and theological colleges:

The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: Have you seen what Rebel Israel did going to every high montain and under every leafy tree, and whoring there? I thought: After she has done all these things, she will come back to Me. But she did not come back; and her sister, Faithless Judah, saw it. JSB © 1985,1999

If I can comment on this. I admit that the theistic repentance passages are not easy to grasp. The question is did God decree his own repentance to destroy a certain people? When God repented that he made man in Genesis 6, and when he repented of the the harm he intended to Israel in Ex 32, or with the Ninevites as has been mentioned, is that an actual change of mind if God decreed his own change of mind?

John Piper wrote about the two wills of God. I do not doubt the complexity of Gods will. It is easy to see differences between his revealed will, and his decreed will. Does God ultimately decree his own will to change (repent) for his own greater glory? Does God want to destroy sin (revealed will), but restrain his destruction of sin for a greater glory (decreed will)?

I think somewhere in Romans 11 Paul writes something like... "oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom of God." The subject is not a simple one.

 

[MarkT]

Romans

15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"

'For who can resist his will', tells us we have a will; to resist, the 'will' is implied. But it says, 'who can resist his will'? Paul is talking about a man. A man can ask, 'Why does he still find fault?' A man can say, 'Who can resist his will?' God can harden the heart of whomever, even an entire nation, but when Paul says, 'You will say to me', he is speaking to them as individual men.

The question is, is our will mightier than God's will? Can man resist the will of God? No. By example, the Scripture says, 'But the LORD hardened Pharoah's heart, and he would not let them go.' Exodus 10:27 ,and 'Yet one plague more will I bring upon Pharoah' Exodus 11:1 So we see the LORD was not willing to let Pharoah free the slaves until every plague was brought upon him and Egypt. It was to show us that no man can resist the will of God. God can make sport of our will. Why did God make sport of Pharoah's will? Because Pharoah was made for destruction.

According to Paul and according to the Scriptures, everything is made for God's purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Did the wicked ask to be born? No. But they were created for a purpose. But were they created without a will? No. They sin wilfully and they sin greatly.

Thomas Jefferson said all men are created equal. I disagree. All men are not created equal. All men are created to accomplish the will of God. The vessels of mercy for mercy. The wicked for the day of trouble.