God Created Man/Adam Sin-ful

[OzSpen]

Here is what you stated -

Where are the words that we need to study what you are teaching?

Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 )

These references to scripture don’t teach us anything about what your saying.

For us to all come to the unity of faith, being established on the solid rock of the doctrine of Christ and His Apostles, so we are not tossed around by every wind of doctrine, let’s love each other enough to be thorough in what we are teaching to God’s children.


This Forum is in the process of becoming a sanctuary of peace, faith, hope and love, for the people of God to find refuge from the storms of false doctrine and deception that is being spewed out by the enemy.

In addition, I’m sure the internet has many fine commentaries for us to refer to, but in the end, these are just another man’s commentary.


Please, brother share some scripture and teach us about imputed righteousness.


I have heard plenty of people give their slant about this doctrine.


Some fall into the OSAS, eternal security camp.


It would be refreshing to hear a balanced teaching on the subject.


I will post the scripture that surely needs to be reconciled in any teaching about righteousness.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

JLB

JLB,

What is the title of the OP?


'God created Man/Adam Sin-ful'

This has developed into a discussion of imputation of sin from Adam to the human race. Rom 5:12-21 is one of the best expositions of this doctrine.

See my discussions at #111 and #113.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry, that doesn't impress me.
Go ahead. Take over.

Please tell me in which language is the aorist subjunctive that I've discussed in this thread?

 

[JLB]

JLB,

What is the title of the OP?


'God created Man/Adam Sin-ful'

This has developed into a discussion of imputation of sin from Adam to the human race. Rom 5:12-21 is one of the best expositions of this doctrine.

See my discussions at #111 and #113.

Oz

All I know is you jumped into the discussion about imputed righteousness with this post number 109.

JLB,

Imputation is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ) [Easton's Bible Dictionary 3rd ed, courtesy Bible Study Tools).

A brief search with Google would have found this information quickly.

Please feel free to teach us about imputed righteousness.


All I ask is that you use scripture, so we can all benefit from your knowledge of scripture about this subject.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

All I know is you jumped into the discussion about imputed righteousness with this post number 109.

Please feel free to teach us about imputed righteousness.

All I ask is that you use scripture, so we can all benefit from your knowledge of scripture about this subject.

JLB

This sounds like you're being cynical towards me and ridiculing me. If that's how you feel, I won't engage further with you.

This forum allows anyone to jump in at any point of a discussion.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Please tell me in which language is the aorist subjunctive that I've discussed in this thread?

You don't get it, do you.

Acts 26:24 (KJV)
....much learning doth make thee mad.

Let me tell you what Yahewh thinks of those that.....well, read on

Luke 3:1-2 (KJV)
1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

One Caesar, one Governor, three tetrarchs, and two high priests. All men of accomplishment, all men of letters, all men of commendations, all men of degrees, and all men of authority...

But the Word of God came to John in the wilderness.

You understand now?

Carry on.

 

[JLB]

This sounds like you're being cynical towards me and ridiculing me. If that's how you feel, I won't engage further with you.

This forum allows anyone to jump in at any point of a discussion.

Cynical?

Ridicule?


Cmon brother, I asked you to share what you have learned about imputed righteousness from the scriptures.


There has been enough arguing and debating about doctrine, most of which is just people’s opinion.


Let’s just teach what we know from the scriptures.


Again, Please feel free to teach us about imputed righteousness.


All I ask is that you use scripture, so we can all benefit from your knowledge of scripture about this subject.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Cynical?

Ridicule?


Cmon brother, I asked you to share what you have learned about imputed righteousness from the scriptures.


There has been enough arguing and debating about doctrine, most of which is just people’s opinion.


Let’s just teach what we know from the scriptures.


Again, Please feel free to teach us about imputed righteousness.


All I ask is that you use scripture, so we can all benefit from your knowledge of scripture about this subject.

JLB

JLB,

In this thread, I've already provided you with definitions, based on Scripture, in #109, #111, and #113.

I will not give any more details as those posts provide a summary of the teaching, according to Scripture.

Oz

 

[chessman]

In this thread, I've already provided you with definitions, based on Scripture, in #109, #111, and #113.

Yes you have, and thanks. And it’s been pointed out numerous times by the staff that posting the Scripture references (versus copy/paste of the passage) serves the purpose of posting Scriptural support for ones Theological position within posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

In 2 Cor 5:21, the word translated 'might become' is genwmetha, from ginomai (I become) The verb genwmetha in 2 Cor 5:21 is parsed as: first person, plural number, aorist tense, subjunctive mood.

The indicative mood is the mood of reality, e.g. Jesus died on the cross. The subjunctive mood is the mood of probability, e.g. Jesus may die on the cross.

This is 1 Cor 5:21 (ESV), ' For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God'.

'Might become' is an accurate subjunctive mood translation. Note the word 'become'. It's a becoming process.

However, there is a subtle difference that can be associated with the subjunctive mood: 'It is quite probable that the future indicative is just a variation of the aorist subjunctive' (Robertson 1934 :924). So, 'will become' is a variation of the grammar and is an acceptable translation, as long as we understand that it is not a definite of what will happen.

The subjunctive mood always refers to the future. 'The subjunctive differs from the future indicative in stating what is thought likely to occur, not positively what will occur' (Thompson in Robertson 1934:925)

Oz

Works consulted

Robertson, A T 1934. A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press.

Hi Oz,
Yes,,,1 Corinthians 5:21 states that we will become (might become) as you've explained, IF we become disciples of Christ.

It is not definite because it is not known if the person reading the N.T. is going to become a disciple and follow Jesus.

It depends on us and our willingness to obey God and belong to His family. And, indeed, it is a process --- sanctification.

The word BECOME means we have not reached our goal yet.

Philippians 3:12
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
NASB

"IT" would be referring to perfection. Paul did not expect to achieve perfection in this life. However, he is running to achieve the prize.
Philippians 3:14

 

[chessman]

Yes,,,1 Corinthians 5:21 states that we will become (might become) as you've explained, IF we become disciples of Christ

No it doesn’t. There is no verse “1 Corinthians 5:21”. It’s a mistake. OzSpen meant 2 Corinthians 5:21.

The word BECOME means we have not reached our goal yet.

What does Paul say two verses later about salvation?

 

[WIP]

WIP,
MIGHT become in the Greek means WILL become.

It doesn't mean that a person might or might not become...(righteous)
as we would understand this using today's grammar..

It means that one WILL become (righteous).

This might help. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were asking...

https://biblehub.com/greek/1096.htm

This brings up a question. According to the sources I found (none were Wikipedia)…

• The ESV, was translated by a 50-member team of scholars with a 15-member oversight committee.
• The NIV used 5-member teams of scholars for each book for translation, a second 5-member team reviewed their work, and then a third 8-12 member committee reviewed it again including additional review by outside critics, pastors, students, and laypeople.
• The NKJV used a 130-person team of Greek, Hebrew, and English scholars, editors, church leaders, and Christian laity.
• The NASB was originally translated by a 39-member team and then the 1995 revision was completed by a 15-member team.
• The KJV was translated by at least 60 ranging in age from their 20s to their 60s. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius. All of the Translators were university graduates. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests.
• The NRSV was translated by a 30-member team of scholars including members from various Protestant denominations, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Jewish.
• The NLT was translated by a team of over 90 scholars from various theological backgrounds and denominations. The process began in 1989. Every book was reviewed by three or four people, then rated in the areas of accuracy and clarity. The scholars would debate their opinions, informally vote on the best wording, and the editorial board would decide the final translation. Each work of translation went through the channels of critique by the individual, a book committee, a general reviewer committee, and back to the individual. In 1994, the translators gathered again to make the revisions determined by the reviewers.

All of the above noted revisions render the verse as “might become” except the NLT. The NLT uses “could be made."

If the Greek means “will become” then why would all of these scholars not settle on that wording?

 

[GodsGrace]

This brings up a question. According to the sources I found (none were Wikipedia)…

• The ESV, was translated by a 50-member team of scholars with a 15-member oversight committee.
• The NIV used 5-member teams of scholars for each book for translation, a second 5-member team reviewed their work, and then a third 8-12 member committee reviewed it again including additional review by outside critics, pastors, students, and laypeople.
• The NKJV used a 130-person team of Greek, Hebrew, and English scholars, editors, church leaders, and Christian laity.
• The NASB was originally translated by a 39-member team and then the 1995 revision was completed by a 15-member team.
• The KJV was translated by at least 60 ranging in age from their 20s to their 60s. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius. All of the Translators were university graduates. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests.
• The NRSV was translated by a 30-member team of scholars including members from various Protestant denominations, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Jewish.
• The NLT was translated by a team of over 90 scholars from various theological backgrounds and denominations. The process began in 1989. Every book was reviewed by three or four people, then rated in the areas of accuracy and clarity. The scholars would debate their opinions, informally vote on the best wording, and the editorial board would decide the final translation. Each work of translation went through the channels of critique by the individual, a book committee, a general reviewer committee, and back to the individual. In 1994, the translators gathered again to make the revisions determined by the reviewers.

All of the above noted revisions render the verse as “might become” except the NLT. The NLT uses “could be made."

If the Greek means “will become” then why would all of these scholars not settle on that wording?

WIP,
OzSpen did reply to this in a more technical way...
Please see posts 111 and 129.

As to your comment above...yes, but each bible has its own bias and the bible is translated keeping that bias in mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

No it doesn’t. There is no verse “1 Corinthians 5:21”. It’s a mistake. OzSpen meant 2 Corinthians 5:21.

OzSpen quoted 2 Corinthians 5:21. My bad.

What does Paul say two verses later about salvation?[/QUOTE]
What?
He says what I stated.
Paul says we are workers WITH GOD. Our salvation is a concerted effort by man with the help of the Holy Spirit, which is God's grace given to us. Paul even states that he hopes this grace is not given in vain. If we do not accept the cross, God's grace was given in vain.

God hears Jesus' prayer for the salvation of all mankind...NOW is the accepted time of salvation.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2
1And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain—
2for He says,
“AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,
AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.”
Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION”—

 

[GodsGrace]

QUOTE: It's sometimes difficult to know exactly what persons are saying....it's not easy to speak of spiritual matters.
RESPONSE: Thank you, again on posting that piece on the Early Church Fathers. It was timely.

I agree. It is not easy to speak about spiritual matters. Scripture says that only those possessed of the Holy Spirit can process and understand spiritual matters.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This doesn't mean that an unsaved person who does not have the Holy Spirit cannot understand the Scripture. I'm sure if you ask the unsaved person to interpret John 11:35 they will hit it directly on the spot. What's that called? Being "spot on?" It mostly means that the unsaved will not receive it (Scripture) as a whole as true.

I find it worrisome that although we here have the Holy Spirit or we wouldn't be here, we cannot seem to agree on many biblical concepts. I do believe the N.T. is a complete thought and should not be read paragraph by paragraph and certainly not verse by verse. But we do need those verses to back up our beliefs.

By John 11:35 do you mean the verse that says "Jesus wept"?
An unbeliever might understand that Jesus wept,,,but would he know why? Maybe if he were a senstitive type he could come to some conclusion, but I'm sure we all understand why in a much deeper sense since probably some of us have felt the same way about someone or others in general.

QUOTE:

Jesus was a Promise Fulfilled for the the children of Abraham. We have this promise going all the way back to Genesis 3:15; God had a plan to save us all along from the beginning.
RESPONSE: Excellent. I see you've been thinking.
The Samaritan woman did not know she was elect and her name was in the 'book' of life of the lamb slain....as the conversation revealed. But she was elect. And as Samaritan whom the children of Israel had no dealings, they wanted to be a part of their heritage, but it's a son-of-a-gun when one knows they belong 'somewhere' but that 'somewhere' doesn't want them or want them around.

You mention the word elect...Wouldn't this be the U in TULIP?
So you believe we are saved through God's election of us based on nothing at all and we had nothing to do with our salvation?
(could you post scripture please? I don't have the entire NT memorized and it would save some time). Here you're speaking about John 4, the samaritan woman at the well with five husbands.
So you believe GOD CHOSE her to be saved?
She had been awaiting the Christ and understood that Jesus was The Christ. You believe this was all pre-planned?

QUOTE:

But Abraham's children rejected their Messiah. They still do not accept Him to this day.
RESPONSE: You're speaking of a generation of the children of Israel that rejected their Messiah. Not all. Later, 3000 Hebrews became saved and were added to the Church. And as Acts 6:7 states:

Acts 6:7 (KJV)
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

"A great company" came to Christ. And through the centuries God would save a Hebrew here and a Hebrew there, it's just that something called the Times of the Gentiles was just starting and God had plans - as stated in the Old Testament as we see the Samaritan woman had understood - Messiah would deliver ALL of God's people, "Jew" and Gentile, all who are named in the 'book' of life.

I believe names could be added to the Book of Life or deleted from the Book of Life. See Revelation 3:5 Jesus states that those dressed in white will not have their name ERASED from the Book of Life and Jesus will proclaim their name to God Father.

Messiah will deliver ALL of God's people who choose to believe in Jesus and obey His commandments.
John 3:16 Jesus said:
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

I like to believe what Jesus says.

QUOTE:

The Apostles were sent to the lost sheep of Israel but in John 10:16 Jesus says that He has other sheep that He must bring into the fold.
My bible refers this back to Isaiah 56:6-8 which speak of foreigners being accepted by God.
RESPONSE: Excellent.

Isaiah 56:6-8 (KJV)
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Isn't it great to say the same thing as God?
But be careful with the word "all." These words are always in context to who is being spoken of, in this case, the "all" refers to all who the Lord shall save whose names are in the 'book' of life, and whom He calls.

What do you mean? All doesn't mean All?

all
/ɔːl/
predeterminer, determiner, & pronoun

1. 1.
   used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
   "all the people I met"
   sinonimi: each of, each one of the, every one of the, every single one of the;

adverb

1. 1.
   completely.
   "dressed all in black"
   sinonimi: completely, fully, entirely, totally, wholly, absolutely, utterly, outright, thoroughly, altogether, quite, in every respect, in all respects, without reservation, without exception
   "he was dressed all in black"

QUOTE:

Also, Abraham is told he will be the father of many nations.
And In Mathew 28:19 Jesus tells the Apostles to go into all the nations and make disciples.
Surely you agree with the above.
RESPONSE: Abraham comes from the line of Shem, one of three kids of Noah. Gentiles come from Japheth (Gen. 9:18), and Canaan. So the "nations" with regard to Abraham, and the "nations" in regard to what Jesus said of you noted, refer to those who are born in this line of Shem - as the Gentile line has already been established. and the "nations" refer to those who would come from Abraham through his 12 sons. "Nations" in Genesis 12 is the Hebrew word "goyim" (plural), and refers to Gentiles. This would include three generations later a Hebrew marrying a Gentile and having kids, who have other kids and who marry, and not always with a Hebrew.

The nations in Mathew refers to all the world that was known at that time. In Mathew 10:5 Jesus sends the Apostles out to the Jews only, the people of Israel. In John 10:16 Jesus states that He has other sheep that He must bring into the fold. By the end of Jesus' ministry, He included ALL THE NATIONS, all the world, should be included in God's salvation economy. In fact, Paul went to other nations besides Israel to preach and teach.

 

[chessman]

Paul says we are workers WITH GOD.

Correct. And does God ever fail in His work?

Our salvation is a concerted effort by man with the help of the Holy Spirit, which is God's grace given to us.

Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit is God’s grace? Or are you suggesting the help (to use your word) is God’s grace?

Paul even states that he hopes this grace is not given in vain.

Actually, it is the receiving/welcoming (not the giving) that Paul exhorts not to be received in vain. He knows it wasn’t given in vain. Some Christians just don’t appreciate the fact that God’s working in them “now” this very day for their salvation.

NOW is the accepted time of salvation.

Actually Paul quotes the Holy Spirit from the Prophet Isaiah then says to “behold” (used when a thing is specified which seems impossible and yet occurs) that now (not the future) is the day of salvation.

For He says [in Isa 49:8], “I heard you at the acceptable time. And I helped you on the day of salvation”. Behold, now is the very-acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.​

2 Corinthians 6:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Corinthians 6:2&version=DLNT

 

[WIP]

WIP,
OzSpen did reply to this in a more technical way...
Please see posts 111 and 129.

As to your comment above...yes, but each bible has its own bias and the bible is translated keeping that bias in mind.

I found it interesting that the translators of many of those I mentioned were from various denominations. This should curtail many of those biases. We all have our bias and so when we translate it our bias comes forth too. I'm thinking it is less likely to influenced by the biases when multiple biases are involved and must come to a conclusion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Correct. And does God ever fail in His work?

No. God never fails in His work. But WE do. This is why I reject those that say that Jesus has done it all and we have nothing to do because our works are as filthy rags to God.

First of all, Isaiah 64:6 says our self-righteous acts, or works are not needed by God; referring to persons who attempt to win God by doing works instead of honoring Him in truth.
Proverbs 21:3
John 4:24

Isaiah 64:8 states that God is now our Father.
NOW our works are accepted as righteous.

Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit is God’s grace? Or are you suggesting the help (to use your word) is God’s grace?

The Holy Spirit is God.
God helps us with His grace....
The Holy Spirit is our paraclete and this is help for us.
(bad wording)

Actually, it is the receiving/welcoming (not the giving) that Paul exhorts not to be received in vain. He knows it wasn’t given in vain. Some Christians just don’t appreciate the fact that God’s working in them “now” this very day for their salvation.


Actually Paul quotes the Holy Spirit from the Prophet Isaiah then says to “behold” (used when a thing is specified which seems impossible and yet occurs) that now (not the future) is the day of salvation.

For He says [in Isa 49:8], “I heard you at the acceptable time. And I helped you on the day of salvation”. Behold, now is the very-acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.​

2 Corinthians 6:2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Corinthians 6:2&version=DLNT

Agreed. I believe we're saying the same thing.

 

[GodsGrace]

I found it interesting that the translators of many of those I mentioned were from various denominations. This should curtail many of those biases. We all have our bias and so when we translate it our bias comes forth too. I'm thinking it is less likely to influenced by the biases when multiple biases are involved and must come to a conclusion.

Agreed. I meant that every bible translation has bias in it.

What do YOU believe 2 Corinthians 5:21 means?

 

[WIP]

Agreed. I meant that every bible translation has bias in it.

What do YOU believe 2 Corinthians 5:21 means?

We might become the righteousness of God because we can choose to accept Jesus as Lord over us and when we do He is the propitiation for our sins. His righteousness covers our sins.

 

[GodsGrace]

We might become the righteousness of God because we can choose to accept Jesus as Lord over us and when we do He is the propitiation for our sins. His righteousness covers our sins.

I think we're saying the same thing.
IF we accept Jesus as our Lord He becomes the propitiation for our sins. But I understand the MIGHT BECOME to be conditional based on our becoming disciples of Christ and following Him in His teachings.

IOW, we WILL BECOME the righteousness of God through Jesus, our salvation, IF we follow Him.

If you believe in eternal security, we're going to be speaking past each other since I believe our salvation is conditional on our continued belief in God.

Propitiation [N] http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/propitiation.html
that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners.

In Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5 (A.V., "mercy-seat") the Greek word hilasterion is used. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth , which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant ( Exodus 25:21 ; 30:6 ). This Greek word (hilasterion) came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.

In 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured. (Compare Hebrews 2:17 , where the expression "make reconciliation" of the A.V. is more correctly in the RSV "make propitiation.")

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/propitiation/