God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone

[Cooper]

Sincere believers never turn away. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, always sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing.

Don't you believe it.
.

 

[Robert Pate]

Don't you believe it.
.

I do believe it. Those that profess faith in Christ and then fall away never had faith in the first place. They were counterfeits.

 

[Cooper]

I do believe it. Those that profess faith in Christ and then fall away never had faith in the first place. They were counterfeits.

People change.
.

 

[Robert Pate]

People change.
.

I have known of church members that were unsaved, they were counterfeits. But they heard the Gospel and were converted to Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

No, it is not. We are set apart when we are justified, but we are not automatically fully mature believers, nor are we made perfect. There is much spiritual growth and growth in holiness that must take place over one's lifetime, in which we play a part.


Once again, it's the ESV, not "your version."

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (KJV)

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. (ESV)

Notice that Paul is contrasting one's members being slaves to "uncleanness" which leads "to iniquity unto iniquity," with one's members being slaves to "righteousness unto holiness." "Unto" means the same as "leading to." They say the exact same thing. There is no difference in meaning.

Or, as M. R. Vincent puts it:

Holiness (ἁγιασμόν)

Rev., sanctification. For the kindred adjective ἅγιος holy, see on saints, Act_26:10. Ἁγιασμός is used in the New Testament both of a process - the inauguration and maintenance of the life of fellowship with God, and of the resultant state of sanctification. See 1Th_4:3, 1Th_4:7; 2Th_2:13; 1Ti_2:15; 1Pe_1:2; Heb_12:14. It is difficult to determine which is meant here. The passages in Thessalonians, Timothy, and Hebrews, are cited by interpreters on both sides. As in Rom_6:22 it appears that sanctification contemplates a further result (everlasting life), it is perhaps better to understand it as the process. Yield your members to righteousness in order to carry on the progressive work of sanctification, perfecting holiness (1Co_7:1).


As I said, there are two aspects to sanctification--past and present (continual). You still sin, so you are not holy in the way Jesus was holy on earth or the way God is holy. That is what we are in process towards, to be like Christ.


It doesn't follow that if in one context, one is gradual, that in a different context one of the others or even the same one must be gradual. These are the nuances that one must take care to delineate.


It's his will that we grow in holiness and become more like Christ, not merely remain in the state in which we are first saved.


It says what it says. He is writing to believers and exhorts them to be holy.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (ESV)


That's one way to deflect and not answer objections. Believers clearly sin, and fairly often, which is why we need to grow in holiness and not be left in the state we are in when first saved. The good thing is, when we do sin, we have an advocate before the Father, and all we have to do is confess our sins and he will forgive us. That is the simple, clear message of 1 John 1:5-2:1.

Sorry we can't agree.
I would have loved to see you set apart for the work of God.
And made holy.
And consecrated.
And atoned for.
God allows all those things to those who quit serving sin and serve Him only.

 

[Hopeful]

.
Like the omnipresent God, so is the opposer.
.

I know, but I can't give up on the folks who deny the promises and abilities of God.

 

[Hopeful]

When we first accept Christ as our savior several spiritual things take place.

The best part is that God spiritually places us "In Christ" we are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven. God only sees us as "In Christ". This means that spiritually Jesus fulfilled the law for us and atoned for our sin. Paul said to the Colossians, "For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" Colossians 3:3.

Because God sees us "In Christ" we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. "In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom after that you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing. Once sealed, always sealed.

On the other hand, how can a man who is "in Christ" do things Christ hates?
He can't.

Beware of those who teach that you can lose you salvation if you sin. "There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ" Romans 8:35-39., you are not In the hand of God.

If one is still bringing forth the fruit of the devil, they are not in the hand of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Excellent scripture. Christ is our righteousness. Jesus makes us right with God because we are sinners. This is how we are saved. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

Thanks be to God we have received the gift of repentance from sin so we don't need to stay sinners.
I mean, if you turn away from something, like telling lies, you tell the truth from then on.
Another lie would indicate the repentance was a lie to God.

 

[Hopeful]

Sincere believers never turn away. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, always sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing.

True, as long as the "believer" keeps doing God's will.
If he quits believing, serving, loving, the "down payment" is forfeited.

 

[Robert Pate]

On the other hand, how can a man who is "in Christ" do things Christ hates?
He can't.

If one is still bringing forth the fruit of the devil, they are not in the hand of God.

You are in denial that you are a sinner. Christians strive to live holy lives, but they know in their heart that they are failing.

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not that I do" Romans 7:19.

 

[Robert Pate]

True, as long as the "believer" keeps doing God's will.
If he quits believing, serving, loving, the "down payment" is forfeited.

Hogwash. We belong to the Lord even when we sin.

 

[Robert Pate]

Thanks be to God we have received the gift of repentance from sin so we don't need to stay sinners.
I mean, if you turn away from something, like telling lies, you tell the truth from then on.
Another lie would indicate the repentance was a lie to God.

We are born sinners, Psalm 51:5. We live out our lives as sinners and we die as sinners.

 

[GodsGrace]

How does it happen?
It is written..."Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom 5:9)
And..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:11)
Where is it that we are washed in the name of Jesus and His blood is applied to us?
Water baptism.

You're asking how justification happens.
It does not happen at baptism.
It happens the moment a person turns to God.
Romans 10:9-10
9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Romans 5:1
1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice that the person has not been baptized yet.

You should look at the other words defining "sanctification".
Atoned for, set aside, consecrated, made holy.
All these things happen at the application of the Lord's sanctifying blood.
Did you notice that both sanctification and justification occur in 1 Cor 6:11?
Neither is gradual or ongoing.

They happen together but sanctification is ongoing.
Sanctification means all those words you posted:
atoned for
set aside (for service to God)
consecrated
made holy

holy means to be set aside for service to God....
all these are just other words for sanctification.

2 Tim 2:20-21
20In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use.
21Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

These good works continue for our entire life...
They don't happen just one time at salvation.

Hebrews 10:14
14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Agreed, but that also shows one can't be instant and the other a long, drawn out, gradual occurrence.
"One depends on the other".

God doesn't want anyone to be an alcoholic, so both will know alcohol can no longer dictate their life.

It will be too late by then.
Where do you see sanctification equated with glorification...or with death?

There are 3 stages in our spiritual life:
JUSTIFICATION
SANCTIFICATION
GLORIFICATION - this comes only after death.

You do not receive your glorified body while on this earth.

Philippians 3:21
21But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Our body will be transformed and be like that of Jesus.

Jesus commanded we be as perfect as His Father in Matt 5:48.
Jesus doesn't command the impossible.
The converted are in God as Jesus was in God.
Wasn't Jesus sanctified while He walked on earth?
Of course He was.

Jesus was sanctified?
Isn't Jesus God?
He requires sanctification?
He requires to be set aside for service to Himself?

10 minutes from when I read/heard I could have a clean conscience towards God by water baptism. (1 Peter 3:21)
Salvation will have to wait until the day of judgement.
I will not usurp God's judgement on the matter.

No.
It would not fit the pattern of God's mercy.

So you believe no one can die while studying the Word of God.
This is an interesting concept.
I'm sure no one else would agree with you.
A person can die at any moment.

I already posted scripture regarding how death could come at any time.
I won't pursue this idea any further.

 

[jaybo]

You are in denial that you are a sinner. Christians strive to live holy lives, but they know in their heart that they are failing.

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not that I do" Romans 7:19.

Do you really not understand what Paul was writing about in Romans 7? Try reading the next chapter! It starts like this: "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk [present tense!] not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4

 

[GodsGrace]

Hogwash. We belong to the Lord even when we sin.

I agree that we belong to the Lord even when we sin.
It's a life of sin that we're warned against.
However, the other member did correctly say that if
we quit believing, loving, then the down payment is forfeited.
That would be apostacy, and we would surely forfeit our salvation if we
stopped believing in Christ and obeying Him.

 

[Robert Pate]

I agree that we belong to the Lord even when we sin.
It's a life of sin that we're warned against.
However, the other member did correctly say that if
we quit believing, loving, then the down payment is forfeited.
That would be apostacy, and we would surely forfeit our salvation if we
stopped believing in Christ and obeying Him.

Right. Apostacy is a departure from the faith. Chances are that they were never born again, they were counterfeits.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right. Apostacy is a departure from the faith. Chances are that they were never born again, they were counterfeits.

They were never born again...
what a great excuse.

Too bad it's not so.

The NT warns us not to fall away from our faith...or depart from it.

How does one fall away from a faith they never had...
or depart from a faith they never had?

Matthew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[Robert Pate]

They were never born again...
what a great excuse.

Too bad it's not so.

The NT warns us not to fall away from our faith...or depart from it.

How does one fall away from a faith they never had...
or depart from a faith they never had?

Matthew 24:10-13
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

All that come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing, once sealed always sealed. There are many counterfeits that have never been born again, they never did believe or have faith to begin with.

 

[Hopeful]

You are in denial that you are a sinner.

I used to be, but I repented of sin, so I don't sin anymore.
If I did still sin, it would mean my repentance from sin was a lie.

Christians strive to live holy lives, but they know in their heart that they are failing.

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not that I do" Romans 7:19.

Paul's lament concerned his time while still walking after the flesh, and trying unsuccessfully to meet the requirements of the Mosaic Law.
It was a narrative of his past.

Move up to his "present tense".
Rom 7:24's plaint was answered in Rom 6:6.
Rom 7:23's plaint was answered in Rom 8:2.
The result?
The body of sin had been destroyed and the law of sin and death had been eclipsed by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

Hogwash. We belong to the Lord even when we sin.

God hates the workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)