Robert Pate
Member
We are perfect and complete only in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Outside of Christ we are "The chief of sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.
God can find no sin in the man that is trusts in Christ to save him from his sins, Romans 10:9-10.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
God can find no sin in the man that is trusts in Christ to save him from his sins, Romans 10:9-10.
Please show exactly where I am ignoring Scripture, as I have clearly provided two distinctions that need to be made in regards to sanctification--past and present, depending on context. It is you that is not taking into account the clear teaching that sanctification is also a process.
No, I certainly don't.
It's the word the KJV translates as "holiness." The Greek word, hagiasmos, appears 10 times in the NT, which the KJV translates as "holiness" 5 times and "sanctification" 5 times.
Again, here too, it depends on context and in what way we can be made perfect. This verse is not suggesting that we are perfect, only that we may become perfect, in some way, through trials and the testing of our faith. That is what the process of sanctification is about.
Okay, but that doesn't address what I said: Sanctification depends on justification, otherwise it just becomes works salvation.
The immediate context is loving others, particularly one's enemies. And one must also be careful in understanding the nuances in meaning of "perfect." It doesn't necessarily mean in degree but in kind, quality, and character. We are commanded to be perfect, to strain for perfection, even though we can never attain perfection in this life. The point here is that our love for others isn't just to be towards "those who love [us]" or our "brothers," since tax collectors and others do those things. Our love is to be of a kind that even loves our enemies and prays for those who persecute us, as the Father loved us while we were yet sinners.
Yes, but he says, "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on."
To be reborn is to be justified. That is a point in time, the beginning of salvation. Sanctification, while it can refer to being set apart from the world, also refers to the process in which we are being made holy. We do sin though, since our being made holy is not complete.
That doesn't make good sense of the passage. Notice that it is always "we" whom John is addressing--"if we" is used to start each verse from 6 to 10. This is all addressed to believers and those who think they are. Verse 6 is a warning to those who think they're saved but their life shows otherwise. Verses 8 and 10 are warnings to those who think they're saved but claim to have no sin; they are self-deceived, don't have the truth, make God a liar, and do not have his word. If verse 9 only addresses those who "walk in the light," then it very strongly implies that such persons sin.
Correct. Which is why any one who thinks they walk in the light but are without sin, has deceived themself, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have his word in them.
No, they can't, which is rather John's whole point; not a single person can say they are without sin. Those who walk in the light will be forgiven of their sins upon confessing them.
And don't forget John 2:1, the artificial division of a continuous letter:
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)
He is imploring believers to not sin. However, he knows that believers sin, and when we do, we are to confess those sins so that we will be forgiven through Jesus's advocacy on our behalf.
Justification is not by baptism.
It is by faith.
When we turn to God in belief and faith, we are saved.
Romans 5:1
1Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
We are made right with God by faith.
Because of what Jesus did for us.
Not because we were baptized.
Jesus died for us as an atonement,
He didn't get baptized for us.
WHAT OUR LORD HAS DONE FOR US.
At the moment you are justified.
You are made right with God because you accept what Jesus did for you.
All of the above words mean the same:
Set aside for service to God.
Except for Atoned For, which has a different meaning but still has to do
with what Jesus did for us in order to be saved.
I don't see anything in 1 Cor 6:11 that states that neither is on-going.
It says that we were made right with God - justified,
and that we were made holy - sanctified.
But that's not the only verse that speaks about sanctification.
They both occur at the same time,
but sanctification is on-going.
1 Thes 5:23
23Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are to be kept blameless till the end.
Hebrews 10:14
14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
We are being sanctified.
Phil 1:6
6And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
He that began a good work will bring it to completion...it is not completed at the time of justfctn/sanctftn.
1 Peter 1:2
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
We are to continue to obey Christ in order to be in His grace and peace.
Why not?
We turn to God.
That's an instant.
If you want to obey God, that lasts a lifetime.
Sure, but one could be healed overnight,
and one cannot.
You can accept this or not - I'm not going to debate it.
I think anyone would accept that this is the case.
God does not handle all of us the same way.
These are the steps:
JUSTIFICATION
SANCTIFICATION
GLORIFICATION
One is immediate.
One is on-going.
One is after we die and receive our glorified bodies.
Jesus was God. We don't speak of God as being sanctified.
That's like saying that God has been put aside to do good works for God.
As to being perfect like God is perfect.
God does not command what cannot be done...right.
So you believe that Jesus didn't know about the sinful nature of man
and He still commanded that man be perfect?
If Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sin,
I'd say that Jesus knew about our sinful nature.
See John 20:23
22Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Jesus meant to be perfect in the sense of being complete in God.
Only God is perfect. So He must have meant something else:
As someone pointed out to me recently, this is probably a legacy from the Vulgate which translates the Greek word into Latin as ‘perfectus’ (though even that word doesn’t quite have the sense of being without flaws that our English word has).
The Greek word here is teleios and it can mean ‘perfect’ but is more usually used to refer to maturity or wholeness. If we have a quick look at where this word is used elsewhere in the New Testament you will see what I mean (I’ve put the word that translates teleios in bold so you can see it more easily).
source: https://www.biblesociety.org.uk/exp...what-does-jesus-mean-when-he-says-be-perfect/
Wow Hopeful.
I think you live in a world that does not exist.
A person can die at any moment.
Jesus said to be ready because we do not know when we will be called.
Matthew 24:44
Matthew 25:13
PS
I don't know what Romans 10:9-10 has to do with man having no sin.
1 John 1:8-10, " If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous,[v] forgiving[w] us our sins and cleansing[x] us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us." NRSVue
1 John 2:1-2, "1 (My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.) But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One, and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world." NRSVue
It's unfortunate that the absurd idea that any person, Christian or not, never sins pops up periodically. The Bible clearly says that a) everyone sins and b) everyone's sins are forgiven in Christ.
Robert Pate
Member
Sure it does, you are not able to believe it.
Robert Pate
Member
Another one that does not understand the spiritual and the physical aspects of Christianity.
The only one that understood the Old Covenants and the New Covenant was the apostle Paul. All of the rest of the apostles did not understand the implications of the New Covenant.
Paul plainly said, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those that believe" Romans 10:4. This is terrible doctrine for the religious that don't believe the Gospel and are trying to be justified by the law and religion.
Jesus abolished the law by nailing it to his cross, Colossians 2:14. Paul said, "Where there is no law, there is no sin" Romans 4:15. And all of the religious fainted. The religious love the law because they have made the law their Jesus.
Do you actually never sin? Really? So you are on a level with Jesus Christ when He was on Earth? Really???
Thank you for your pompous and erroneous judgement of me. Do you know the parable Jesus spoke about the Pharisee and the tax collector? You should read it.
Saying that "The only one that understood the Old Covenants and the New Covenant was the apostle Paul. All of the rest of the apostles did not understand the implications of the New Covenant" is sheer nonsense.
You are the one who doesn't understand the implications of the New Covenant.
You are the one who does not understand the spiritual and the physical aspects of Christianity.
Sin exists outside of the law. It has been in the world from "day one" because Adam sinned (prior to the law, obviously).
Your saying that "the religious love the law because they have made the law their Jesus" is total irrational nonsense.
Robert Pate
Member
If you are going to refute me, you will have to do it with scripture. Everything else is hot air.
Paul is the only apostle that taught the Gospel and justification by faith. The reason for this is that all of the books of the Bible were written under the Old Covenant of law and religion, except for Paul's epistles. Paul was the only New Covenant Christian. The rest were influenced by Judaism, much like you.
Were you atoned for?
Yes?
Then you are sanctified.
It happens in an instant, when the blood of Christ is applied to your body.
Why does your version of the KJV add confusing words?
They are often the same thing.
One of the definitions of sanctification is "made holy".
Were you not made holy when your sins were remitted?
I sure was, thanks be to God.
You have a different definition for sanctification than I do.
We grow in grace and knowledge, but we start from a position of holiness, atoned for, set apart, coscecration.
They happen simultaneously with the application f the blood of Christ.
And salvation is a ton of work, just not the works of the Law.
Exactly.
The only nuance to the word perfect, is imperfection.
We are not commanded to do the impossible.
I worship a God that makes it possible to be perfectly obedient.
Don't you?
If not, we should talk some more.
OK, so so it !
If you look at Phil 3:11, you will see that the thing he had not yet attained was the resurrection from the dead.
That is unscriptural.
It implies continued washings from sin by the blood of Christ, which He does once at baptism in His name for the remission for sins. (Acts 2:38)
Your concentration on the word "we" has hidden the word "if".
IF we walk in darkness we cannot say we have no sin.
IF we walk in the light, we can say we have no sin.
God is the light, and there is no sin in God.
You must think there is sin in God in spite of what 1 John 1: 5 said..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
If we are walking in God, there can be no sin in/on us.
Jesus could, and so can we.
You don't think anyone can walk in the light,, which is God, do you?
Do you think the blood of Christ can wash away past sins at all?
If one is still sinning, the "any man", (your version of the KJ bible says "anyone") is the sinner...which shows they were not walking in the light and were walking in darkness.
Which means they cannot say they have fellowship with God either. (1 John 1:6)
You got it wrong.
1 John 2:3-4..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1 John 2:2's "anyone" doesn't know God or keep His commandments.
They walk in darkness.
But those who know God and keep His commandments have an Advocate for them.
I will continue to believe what 1 Cor 6:11 says.
My faith enables me to rely on 1 Cor 6:11.
Agreed.
You don't believe He gave us the means of remission of sins, and justification, and sanctification, and rebirth, and the death of the old man?
Where is your faith?
Yes, thanks be to God.
Of course not.
What our Lord has done for us is open the door.
We must have faith to go through it.
Without the application of His blood?
Nope.
They are all the same, and all happen in an instant at the application of the Lord's atoning blood. (1 Cor 6:11)
That makes no sense.
"They occur at the same time but one is gradual"...meaning it has not occurred.
Isn't "blameless" the same as "sanctified"?
Yes.
Your version if the bible has added "are being sanctified".
It is a lie added by those who wish to continue to commit sin, and is devilish.
How can a man who has been perfected forever not already be sanctified?
Additions to scripture by the unholy interpreters of your false version of scripture.
Get a KJ version for the truth.
That I can agree with.
Because they both happen at the same time.
As 1 Cor 6:11 says..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Washed, sanctified, and justified, at the using of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That happens at water baptism, according to Peter in Acts 2:38.
I can agree that a true repentance from sin happens in an instance.
Yes, and so does the turn from sin.
I don't accept it because I believe that God can do it.
With that outlook you will never be sanctified.
He is, however, sanctified.
Holy, and consecrated.
So you are not in God?
I am, and will continue to walk in the light until my last day, with the help of God.
I understand your POV.
But I wanted to obey God in every aspect of my life when I came to Him.
He made that possible.
Do you think you will be sanctified by then?
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Christianiyh sure doesn't teach continued service to sin.
You do realize, I hope, that if one commits a sin it shows he is still under the Law.
Dorothy Mae
Member
You are in for one rude awakening. First, that scripture does not promise that. Again, unfortunately for you, I can cut and paste. "that iif you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." No promise that God does not see the awful sin we do to other people.
Secondly and worse,
Romans 14: For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;....So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
Matthew 12 And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak.
Hebrews 4
Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
2 Cor 5
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
You will have to appear before the judgement of God or Judgement Seat of Christ which is the same, and he will see all the bad that you have done and not repented up. He will not see "Jesus" when he looks at you. No where is the the description of what will happen on that day.
So you have a rude awakening coming. The books will be opened and the deeds of your life recorded therein will be read and you will have to give an answer. It is really better to keep a clean account before God and man and remember that this day is coming.
Robert Pate
Member
To be free from the law is to be free from sin, because the law promotes sin, Romans 7:8.
Robert Pate
Member
Christians will not be judged for sins. Their sins have already been judged in Jesus Christ, Romans 6:3. If you don't believe that Jesus atoned for your sins, you will not be saved. You do not have a righteousness that God will accept because you are a sinner born after Adam, Romans 5:12. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.